That's true, but what I do is switch the screen to view 130 Cents mode, and the program shows the next note above as a solid line...I aim at that and just use the screen to take me up to the next higher note...it only takes the program a few seconds to figure out what I'm doing and it switches itself...very intuitive...

RPD

Yes, but if you do any tuning on the note before TuneLab recognizes the new note, then TuneLab has already missed the opportunity to measure the pre-tuned pitch of that note, which is needed for the overpull calculations. That is, assuming you are using over pull mode.

Scott, point made, I've been doing the same thing as RPD on notes way off. So we should switch manually?

Well, you could. But that is a lot of bother. You could just continue to do as you have been doing and just allow a little less accurate overpull calculation. The pre-tuned pitch will be measured at some point when the new note is pulled to within 50 cents of the target. Any pitch raise that is this extreme is not going to be very accurate or stable anyway. Or you could use timed note switching, which some people like and some people find annoying.

In the iPhone version TuneLab uses a different approach to pitch raises. Instead of trying to measure the pre-tuned pitch of each note just before you tune it, the iPhone version does all the measurements before you start tuning. It can take less than a minute to do the measurements. Then TuneLab has all the measurements it needs and the tuning itself can be done normally without having to coordinate interleaved measurements with tuning. Then the method of pulling up a note until it is recognized by auto note switching will work just fine.

I do three types of pitch raises. I use Verituner sometimes and a SAT III sometimes.

I always tune unisons as I go with two wedge mutes and by ear. I rarely strip mute anymore.

I don't start at A0. I start at A1 and tune down to A0 and then back up from there. I do this because it's often hard to tell where the bottom notes of the first octave are without a reference, so I find it easier to tune down to them rather than up from them. Sometimes, I start a pitch raise from the first plain wire strings up and then from the top of the bass bridge and down.

1) over-pull tuning. Two passes. First pass with over-pull and moderate pin setting, 30 minutes. My goal is to have it very close after the first pass.
Second pass. Fine tuning, pins set, 40-45 minutes, depending on the condition the piano is in.

2) Standard pitch raise. Moving fast, pins not really set, just to get up to pitch with over-pull set at 25%, 20 minutes. Followed by a fine tuning pass, 40 minutes. But, if I do three passes, I may spend an hour and a half total.

3) When the piano is 80 or more cents flat. First pass w/o over-pull to A-440, 20 minutes. Second pass with over-pull, 20 minutes. Third pass, fine tuning, 50 minutes. Sometimes, if the piano is extremely out of tune I'll spend another 30 minutes for a total of two hours, but never beyond two hours for just tuning.

So, a pitch raise takes me from 20-30 minutes, but I don't usually think in terms of one pass. I think of a pitch raise as an entire multi pass tuning which usually takes me from an hour and ten minutes to an hour and a half.

Speed is nice, but not the goal. When I raise pitch in less than 25 minutes it stresses my nerves and my shoulder. So I calm me down and don´t care about 5 minutes.

BTW, how do you guys tune without mutes? I gues THAT stresses nerves and ears.

Gregor

I don't know about the other programs, but TuneLab has a display that will allow you to pull up one string, and watch it move across the screen, then the second and join it with the first, and the third will be the one still flat...you can pull them in without mutes for a fairly accurate unison...

I started doing this by ear some years ago just for speed, but you can get in all sorts of trouble doing this by ear if you guess it wrong...TuneLab does a great job of nailing the frequencies on the display...

And, actually its easier on the nerves since I use ear protection and without having to reach the mutes during the pitch raise procedure, its easier on the shoulder.


RPD

Byron,

Can you please explain how do you do the over pull tuning (number 1 of your post above)?

Rafael,

I use a Verituner, like you.

I do an over pull tuning this way when the piano is anywhere between 5 to 45 cents flat.

I start tuning at the first plain wire string, bottom of the treble bridge, and tune chromatically up to C88. I use an over-pull of 30% up to F5 and then switch to 36% up to C88.
I then tune from the top of the bass bridge down to A0 with an over-pull of 10%. I then fine tune without any over-pull.

The number 2 method is the one where I start on A1 and tune down to A0 and then chromatically all the way up. Very quickly, about 20 minutes, with an over-pull of 25% throughout.

For me, different pianos, conditions, and situations each call for different methods. Which is why I've learned the three above. It also keeps things interesting. I have to be a creative problem solver in more ways than one.

Thanks Byron,

I do nearly the same. But I use 2 different settings for the over pull: 12% (bass), 24% (tenor), 28% (treble) for small pianos. And 16, 28, 32% for medium and large pianos. Changing percentages at the breaks.

I often find that my settings are not as accurate as I wish and I must do a second pitch correction before the fine tuning.

I always do unisons by ear as I go.

For the fine tuning, aural, I strip mute the entire piano. This forces me to be within 5 cents off pitch before I can do the final pass.

@all: thank you, great input here! I'm in the final phase of an ugly cold, and just getting back into business.

I'm still getting used to an ETD, but today I did a fast "smart tune" (15-20 min) with wedges (unisons by ear), then I strip-muted the whole piano and went into "fine tune" mode correcting the center strings (not much to correct), and finally did unisons by ear.

I wanted to try and all ETD tuning approach, and it actually came out pretty well. To be honest, I had to get that help - I had a clarinet AND a saxophone in the rooms next door. One practicing Brahms, the other pentatonic scales...

For stability, I'm thinking about starting my everyday tuning with a fast RCT 'smart tune' (15 minutes). It makes aural tuning so much easier when the pins are around where they are supposed to be.

FWIW, I notice that a little too much pitch raise doesn't matter nearly as much as not quite enough pitch raise.

Only for pitch raise or do you wear them during fine tuning, too?

Gregor

September Journal has an article on using earplugs for tuning.

I guess you are talking about a Journal of the PTG? I am no member, so I don´t get it. But it sounds really weired to use earplugs for piano tuning. It´s like a painter with sunglasses

O.T.

No need to be an associated of PTG to receive the journal.

They are more like ear filters than ear plugs. Ear filters have flat-response attenuation and allow a clear perception of the highs and lows, whereas earplugs just block the sound from coming in.

I do aural, and can do overall pitch raise in 15-20 minutes, depending on ranges. I only raise !/4 tone per session. Most of mine are at pitch..

Patrick,

There is a very interesting variety of responses of which I didn't have time to read all, just get a gist. 15-20 minutes is normal whether aurally or by ETD, unless is is quite a large pitch change.

The impact type movement of the tuning hammer that I use normally allows me to "pop" a string into tune in 1-3 strokes. I struggled at first with my ETD as you have. I had learned hand-ear coordination, so the hand-eye coordination was awkward and low at first. Since I always combine aural and ETD techniques, I never lost any ability with either.

Of course, I tune unisons aurally but I also watch to see that the whole unison has remained on pitch. I don't expect the ETD to provide perfect results, so I aurally verify, especially in the upper 4th and 5th octaves to insure that I have no "beating" 5ths. I also only tune the wound strings aurally.

Popping a string to pitch in 1-3 strokes can take as little as one second per string, so it is little wonder how the whole piano can be pitch corrected in such little time. One tip for speed I learned very long ago (30 years) from Steve Fairchild who holds the Guinness Book of World Records for "tuning" a piano the fastest in under 5 minutes. You keep your eye on the next tuning pin.

The accumulation of time occurs more from the time it takes to move the hammer from one string after it has been tuned to the next than it does in actually tuning the strings. Even though I tune most strings surely and quickly, I can often detect a string which needs a little more time to stabilize. Those are the ones which keep going flatter each time the key is struck. That is where I spend the time.

I was also impressed with the Reyburn software pitch correction capability. I believe it to be that maker's strongest point. I still prefer, however the rugged reliability of the Sanderson dedicated device. i did not like the display of the Reyburn software although I suppose I could get used to it if I had to.

All of these ETD's are set up to start tuning a piano from A0. I am sorry but I could not and would not ever do that even though, supposedly it is the most efficient way. Pitch correction, of course is one phase of tuning but still, it makes no sense to me to tune A0 first while it does make sense to tune it last.

This is the time of year when many pianos need to be tuned for people starting the academic season. So many pianos are completely crazy out of tune, even those that get tuned multiple times a year and have a long history of being tuned. There is no hope of ever tuning any of these pianos with just one pass.

I worked Friday with someone who wants to take the tuning exam and who has some good skills but is not confident. I presented a small, Kawai RX-1 to him as the challenge. He played the A2-A3 octave and jumped back from it in shock! I had tuned the piano last May and many times before that.

I told him before we started that nearly any time I presented him a piano to tune, he complained about it, so I didn't want to hear from him this time that the piano was not good enough for him. This was the best piano on the list to be tuned for that day. All the rest were verticals and they were all just as crazy out of tune. There were five pianos to be tuned, so we could not spend hours tuning each one.

He said, "This piano will take all day! You hear how far off it is?!". I answered, "They are all like that and if I only worked alone, I would be finished with them by 4 PM, even with an hour lunch break."; (it being at the time, 9 AM). "Yes, it will be hard work and that is why I had you come today. I would simply rather have you do one or two of them and pay you for them than doing all 5 myself."

"But this piano should cost extra to tune since it obviously hasn't been tuned for a few years", he said. I replied that it had been tuned last May and in fact does get tuned 3-4 times each year. It is the strings and choir room piano and gets very serious use. I told him that I did not get extra money the last time for raising the pitch and he was not going to get extra money now for lowering it. If he wanted the money, he would tune the piano. If he didn't feel it was worth his time, he could leave.

He wanted the money and he also wanted to show me that he could tune a piano well enough by ear to pass the exam but he felt it was an undue challenge. He asked me how I would go about it.

So, I said that first I put in the muting strips. then a decision has to me made about the eventual pitch at which the piano will be tuned. Often, I said, there is an easy solution. Parts of the piano were about 30 cents sharp but the Bass was a few cents flat. Simply tune the A4 to A-440 and the pitch will rise somewhat after the pitch correction but it should be within a reasonable range.

I told him that the temperament sequence I had taught at the last convention was good for a pitch correction as it would be for an exam de-tuned piano. I said there would be no guessing, no beat counting and no checks but the results could be perfect or nearly so. He was skeptical.

So, I began the sequence. "You don't use any octave check?", he asked. "Only if you want to waste your time", I replied. I then did the contiguous 3rds and showed him how they were self correcting. He sat straight up in his chair at that and said, "That is very revealing!". I then proceeded through the rest of the sequence, explaining each step. Each interval was so wildly out of tune, that he laughed at each one. But, I popped each one into tune with a couple of strokes.

Now, after finishing the sequence, I said that I had used no checks and counted no beats. How good could it be? I played all of the intervals and said, "You know, I don't hear a single thing I would correct in that, especially it being a pitch correction".

Then I showed him how I would rough in the octaves. I told him I would go now and tune one of the verticals and for him to tune all of the unisons. I had a whole piano tuned twice over and finished before he had quite finished doing that. When I came back in, I could hear him twisting and turning, winging and wanging each pin. At that point, he did what I expected and complained about the piano. I told him there was nothing wrong with it.

I finished off the last section of unisons for him because I didn't want to wait any longer and watch him struggle. I re-inserted the muting strips because he took so painfully long to do that. Now, I said, we'll check the pitch of A4 with the ETD. It had risen to 6.5. I said that was still reasonable. By November, it will be at A-440 anyway.

If I were going to change the pitch again, it would depend on how everything is lying at the moment. The A3-A4 octave was still good. Amazingly, the entire temperament needed not a single correction. The outer octaves also seemed to line up fairly well. So, I showed him how I would fine tune the octaves using the sostenuto pedal. I had one string for each note of the piano now fine tuned in about 15 minutes. I told him to tune the unisons. He barely had that done by 1:30 PM when the choir came in.

We went to lunch and when I returned, I tuned two more verticals, pitch, unisons and fine tuned one string and left him the unisons to tune which I know he could do well. I left at 3:45 PM and he told me later he had worked until 6 PM.

It is all a matter of technique and experience about how long it takes. I use ear plugs all the time, just the cheap ones. I bought a more expensive, filter type set at the convention but just as I had thought, I lost one of them, so it's back to the cheap ones.

Tuning is a matter of perception and control of beats. I can still hear the beats through the ear plugs, so they do not hinder tuning at all. In fact, they make tuning possible under noisy conditions because they suppress noise from other sources and permit better focus on the piano strings.

Why only 1/4 tone per session? I limit myself to about 20 cents over pitch each raise, but have raised a total of 300 cents at one appointment and would do more if needed.

Bill, a couple questions for you.
Why do you think that starting a pitch raise at A0 makes no sense? Is this about the old adage of not loading the bridge and soundboard from one end to the other and rather, spreading the load octave by octave? (eg. all A's then E's ect..) Do you have another reason?

I'm not sure from your statement whether it was a comparison of the spinner to the blinking lights that has you favouring the Sanderson or something else. One session with the Sanderson years ago and my eyes almost went buggy. Are you aware that the configuration, and color of the RCT spinner is adjustable and your screen can also be dimmed or brightened for contrast. This was one of the primary reasons for using RCT over its competitors, for me anyways. As for the Sanderson unit being a stand alone, I find the fact I keep my business contacts, notes on pianos and certain customer requirements all on one netbook together with the ETD software very convenient. (All important information is backed up daily on thumb drive) What would the benefit be in carrying and using different dedicated items?

As for the speed factor on pitch raises I find that as tuners gain experience they usually sort out their own weaknesses and improve on speed. For fine tuning I typically take from an hour to an hour and a half. I have had a few customers tell me that whenever their past tuners did a quick exit in under an hour they felt cheated. Personally from some of the tunings I've run into in these circumstances, they had a legitimate gripe, stability issues, unclean unisons, extreme treble ignored, ect... Now I've had some pianos that only needed some touch ups because they wern't tuned too long ago or else have an environment/condition conducive to stability..even then I make sure to spend some time regulating or doing whatever to give them their moneys worth they hired me for.

Hi all, I've been busy over here as well (aren't most of us this time of the year? )

Bill, I'm once again comforted by the similarities in our corresponding climates. The 10 instruments I've tuned at the conservatory last week hint at a general pattern.

A4 might be 442-443, but the last notes above the break - be they trichords or bichords - are VERY high. The bass is slighty flat, A5-A6 is at pitch (relative to 442), the high treble is VERY low, except for the last five notes or so, which are really high.

Needless to say, the instruments sound horrible. I've found, through trial-and-error, that I need at least two passes, sometimes three, to get them stable.

I am really grateful to you for sharing your methods - in earlier posts, in real life, and here. Another person who has helped me is Jerry Groot. I'm really getting fast at the first pass, be it aurally, ETD-based, or a combination of both. And I see this as a great skill to keep getting better at.

I use the things you and Jerry have talked about, "Keep the eye on the next pin", "Don't dwell", the use of strip mutes, aso. I have a faint memory that you took the same class on speed tuning at a convention quite some time ago? That must have been a very valuable class, and it's great to see you both incorporate, refine, and passing that information forward!

Regarding earplugs, I use two pairs. One pair is the etymolic standard earplugs with a surprisingly even (as in Herz-wise) attenuation of 20 dB. They are great for ETD use, and I also use them for upper treble unison tuning, but for me (personally) I sometimes I feel I just don't hear well enough.

That's when I use my custom molded earplugs, which are 10 times more expensive (popular amongst musicians of all different genres). I have gotten used to using a 9 dB attenuation for audio field work, and they work great for tuning, too. Their fit is phenomenal, using them for a while you'll forget you wear them at all. Still, they attenuate a little less than my liking for the high treble, particularly if tuning unisons with three open strings.

Final checks I do without any earplugs, and sure - there might be some strings to adjust, but surprisingly few!

Both pairs really help to shut out ambient noises in the room and nearby rooms, and give me a lot less stressful tuning experience.

@Emmery: I was under the impression that you used a full-sized laptop for your RCT, but you are actually running the full version of RCT on a netbook? That is interesting, and probably a smart way to go.

What unit are you using? I have an older netbook that can only give you about 2 hrs battery time, but the newer ones are good for 6-8 hors (at least for normal, office-style work.

Patrick, I'm using an Acer Aspire One. Nothing fancy and pretty cheap. What I like about it is that it is a solid state drive, no fan to make noise and incredibly rugged. It also fits nicely on top of most uprights and I carry a little collapsable stand I made for it that clamps with rubber covered clamps to almost anything on the piano. I get about 2 1/2 hours with the battery (power saver settings). I picked up a connector battery as a spare that gives it an additional 6 hours if I need it. Most of the time there is an outlet nearby or I plug it into an inverter I use from my car cigarette lighter driving between jobs.

It was tuning in schools in Chicago where I learned to turn pins without playing notes. In September, the middle of the piano would be sharp, and a quick 1-2 min of pin turning took care of that, and tuning could begin. In Jan the middle would be flat, and a quick 1-2 min of pin turning took care of that, too, and tuning could begin. All I'm doing is getting the tension close so tuning will be stable and fast.

Bob:

When you "blind" pitch raise, do you raise all the strings? I usually just do one string per note, as you say, to get the tension up. Sometimes I will do a second string around the treble break if I think it needs it.