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#1509270 - 09/05/10 01:33 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2204
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Here's the PHAIII in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLsNgJELxpU

Go to time 2:10.

For PHAII, I am quite sure the key would have to be released approximately 2/3rds the way up before a new note can be played.
(I have measured the note termination point, but did not bother to check partial release behaviour because I am confident that PHAII has no sensor to allow a partial release repetition)

Yamaha's GH3 and Casio's new action both pass this test too.

We do have to be a bit careful to seperate functionality from implementation though. The Infinite Response VAX-77 MIDI controller also has three-sensor functionality, but it doesn't have three sensors - it has a hall effect sensor which allows it to sample the key position many times per second as it moves which is of course better than having sensors placed at three different positions. So, I don't know whether Roland have ever actually stated that PHAIII has three sensors - it just seems to be common knowledge. Anyone got a link?

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (09/05/10 01:41 AM)

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#1509275 - 09/05/10 02:24 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
I'd wager the "S" in PHA-III Ivory Feel-S means standard. As opposed to deluxe in the RD-700NX. wink
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#1509284 - 09/05/10 03:11 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: Jackie Apple]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Jackie Apple
The keys are constructed of a one-piece proprietary material that provides excellent moisture absorbency and a premium all-white appearance around the tops and sides of the keys.

This is why I think the -S stands for "solid" (or "standard" as jscomposer suggests) (emphasis mine). I think they are trying to differentiate it from the imitation wood sided white keys of the NX which they market as a deluxe feature (which jscomposer also suggests).

Does anyone know if this fake wood side thing is new to the NX?

Also from the brochure (thanks!):

Quote:
With the same progressive hammer action and escapement as the top-line PHA III, it offers unmatched expression and performance authenticity, capable of transforming the most subtle finger nuances into sound. It also provides incredibly fast key-repetition action.

This is why I'm sure it's a three sensor (emphasis mine).
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#1509287 - 09/05/10 03:23 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]
7even Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/09
Posts: 151
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Jackie Apple
The keys are constructed of a one-piece proprietary material that provides excellent moisture absorbency and a premium all-white appearance around the tops and sides of the keys.

This is why I think the -S stands for "solid" (or "standard" as jscomposer suggests) (emphasis mine). I think they are trying to differentiate it from the imitation wood sided white keys of the NX which they market as a deluxe feature (which jscomposer also suggests).

Does anyone know if this fake wood side thing is new to the NX?

Also from the brochure (thanks!):

Quote:
With the same progressive hammer action and escapement as the top-line PHA III, it offers unmatched expression and performance authenticity, capable of transforming the most subtle finger nuances into sound. It also provides incredibly fast key-repetition action.

This is why I'm sure it's a three sensor (emphasis mine).


The V-Piano has the fake wood on the sides of the keys:



Edited by 7even (09/05/10 03:24 AM)
_________________________
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#1509289 - 09/05/10 03:25 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Thanks for that 7even! Nice pic...
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#1509398 - 09/05/10 12:07 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: bsl100]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: bsl100
Dr Popper, Dewster,

I stand corrected about the C5/RD-700 being Stage Pianos and not arranger/workstations.

If you are to do only Bass/Drums, the FP-7 manual (page 69) suggests that the Session Partner button can be worked in a way where you can do any of the following: Only Drums / Bass+Drums / Full Auto-accompaniment.

Would this be something similar to what the RD-700 series does. Of course, the RD-700 would also do built in Arpegios but would not have full blown Auto-accompaniment.

Brian



It sounds like would be similar but a RD700NX is a far better board for only a few hundred more.
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Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#1509399 - 09/05/10 12:07 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: sullivang]
bsl100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/10
Posts: 131
How would you rate the following KEY ACTION (1 -10, with 10 being best of an Acoustic):
GH3, Yamaha
PHAIII, Roland
Tri-sensor Scaled Hammer Action, Casio
RH3, Korg
RM3, Kawai

How would you rate the following Piano SOUNDS (1 -10, with 10 being best of an Acoustic):
Pure CFIIIS, Yamaha
SuperNatural, Roland
AIF Linear Morphing, Casio
EDS, Korg
Ultra PHI, Kawai

Brian


Edited by bsl100 (09/05/10 12:09 PM)

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#1509440 - 09/05/10 01:21 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: bsl100]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: bsl100
How would you rate the following Piano SOUNDS (1 -10, with 10 being best of an Acoustic):

7 Pure CFIIIS, Yamaha
9 SuperNatural, Roland
5 AIF Linear Morphing, Casio
4 EDS, Korg
? Ultra PHI, Kawai
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#1509581 - 09/05/10 05:45 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9088
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
dewster, these links may help to refresh your memory:

Link 1
Link 2

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1509630 - 09/05/10 06:51 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
dewster, these links may help to refresh your memory:

Thanks James!

In light of that (and I should have qualified this list as largely off the top of my head):

7 Pure CFIIIS, Yamaha
9 SuperNatural, Roland
5 AIF Linear Morphing, Casio
4 EDS, Korg
7 Ultra PHI, Kawai
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THE RD-700NX Thread!
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#1509640 - 09/05/10 07:14 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9088
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
dewster, 88-key sampling isn't important to you then?

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1509651 - 09/05/10 07:40 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
dewster, 88-key sampling isn't important to you then?

You mean 84 key sampling like in the CA63? wink

Yes stretching, particularly if it is audible, is very important to me. But there are other things like note decay time, looping, etc. that can be just as important if not moreso. Like I said, the numbers are the result of a quick impression, not a deep data dive.
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#1509673 - 09/05/10 08:16 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9088
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
dewster, 88-key sampling is 88-key sampling - regardless of what your test may suggest.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1509676 - 09/05/10 08:21 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: Kawai James]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
dewster, 88-key sampling is 88-key sampling - regardless of what your test may suggest.


James - Have you got your flack jacket on? Dewy gets sensitive about his test results/conclusions!
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Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
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#1509681 - 09/05/10 08:22 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
So how do we determine if the NX will sound better than the GX?
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#1509708 - 09/05/10 09:17 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: Melodialworks Music]
voxpops Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3042
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
dewster, 88-key sampling is 88-key sampling - regardless of what your test may suggest.


James - Have you got your flack jacket on? Dewy gets sensitive about his test results/conclusions!


Whatever claims are made on either side, if I can't tell the difference with my ears, I don't really care. AUDIBLE stretching/looping/layering is where the problem lies.

What I will say is that now the manufacturers are aware of Dewster's tests, they are likely to be a little more careful with what they put in print in future.
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#1509710 - 09/05/10 09:20 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: Melodialworks Music]
voxpops Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3042
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
So how do we determine if the NX will sound better than the GX?


By waiting until it's released and then trying it! Life was so much easier when a Steinway was a Steinway, and always would be.
_________________________
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#1509738 - 09/05/10 10:27 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
dewster, 88-key sampling is 88-key sampling - regardless of what your test may suggest.

So I take it that you checked with the engineers on this issue? If indeed there is stretching in the CA63, the claim that there isn't any would bother me a bit, but practically it is fairly moot as it is minor and inaudible. I do take some issue with the noticeable looping and somewhat short note decay.
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THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1509745 - 09/05/10 10:35 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: voxpops]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Whatever claims are made on either side, if I can't tell the difference with my ears, I don't really care. AUDIBLE stretching/looping/layering is where the problem lies.

With the caveat that ears can, over time, be trained - intentionally or not - to hear things that they previously couldn't. And there's the rub for DP sound technology. We can't really know now what our ears will become wise to. I just wish they'd try harder at keeping mine satisfied long-term.
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#1509856 - 09/06/10 03:20 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]
bsl100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/10
Posts: 131
With regard to the CA63, I'd mentioned about the key action viz a viz the K6 side by side.

As far as the sound goes, the K6 was clearly superior and very pleasing with the sound resonating beautifully.

Dewster mentions about note decay in the CA63. The notes to the right of middle C decayed faster in about 8-9 seconds whereas the ones to the left held longer for about 12 seconds.

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#1509914 - 09/06/10 08:11 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]
unpia Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/01/10
Posts: 10
About the difference between PHA III and PHA III-S:
Quote:
[PHA III] The keyboard also features Roland’s acclaimed Ivory Feel, a comfortable and realistic moisture-absorbent material that prevents slipping from perspiration during performance."
Quote:
[PHA III-S] The surface of each white key replicates the unique appearance and comfortable feel of real ivory keys.


Could it be that in the PHA III-S, only white keys have the ivory feel, while black keys have the standard plastic feel?

Also, one wonders why they would bother calling the two keybeds differently if the only thing that changed was the color of the sides of the keys. Who even cares about that?

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#1509918 - 09/06/10 08:24 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]
bsl100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/10
Posts: 131
There's no reason to call the two actions by different names if only coloration is a factor. It would mean confusing your customer.

The RD-700NX (series) has better electronics and features to warrant a better price compared to the FP-7F (series).

I once again request someone who has tried out both PHAII and PHAII alpha to tell what difference is there between those two.

Brian

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#1509936 - 09/06/10 08:59 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2204
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Good point unpia.

Also, the V-Piano PHAIII text explicitly mentions ebony feel for the black keys. smile
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=978&ParentId=87

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (09/06/10 09:23 AM)

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#1509946 - 09/06/10 09:40 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: bsl100]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: bsl100


I once again request someone who has tried out both PHAII and PHAII alpha to tell what difference is there between those two.


Is the FP7 PHA II or PHA II alpha?
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#1509958 - 09/06/10 09:56 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9088
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
The FP7 uses PHAII.
The FP4 uses PHAII alpha.

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1509962 - 09/06/10 10:01 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]
voxpops Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3042
Loc: Oregon
FP7 has PHA II. I believe the alpha actions were reserved for the narrower, lighter weight boards. In the RD-300SX (which I have) it was called Compact Progressive Hammer Action, which was then changed to PHA II alpha in the RD-300GX. From that history, I doubt whether the FP7f action will differ much from the NX.
_________________________
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http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

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#1509963 - 09/06/10 10:02 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: Kawai James]
voxpops Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3042
Loc: Oregon
Sorry, James, I was still typing (sleepily) when you posted.
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#1509985 - 09/06/10 10:34 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
dewster, 88-key sampling is 88-key sampling - regardless of what your test may suggest.

So I take it that you checked with the engineers on this issue? If indeed there is stretching in the CA63, the claim that there isn't any would bother me a bit, but practically it is fairly moot as it is minor and inaudible. I do take some issue with the noticeable looping and somewhat short note decay.

Also to refresh your memory: your judging is incomplete (couldn't find an even friendlier word), because it is based on a basic CA63 factory setting, without dynamic voicing or string resonance. As you know, advanced custom piano presets for the CA93/CA63 include dynamic dual voice piano layering where there is no audible looping. Please be my guest and demonstrate that direct competitors like the Yamaha CLP and Roland HP series also support dynamic layering of acoustic piano voices. whistle yawn
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#1510023 - 09/06/10 11:27 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: TADutchman]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: TADutchman
Also to refresh your memory: your judging is based on a basic CA63 factory setting, even without string resonance.

Have they fixed the no string resonance with MIDI playback issue that plagued all of the Kawai DPs I've tested (Roland HP-307 has similar issues)? That's the reason my testing was done that way. And the factory default main piano voice is what I routinely test as DP manufacturers generally put their best foot forward there.

Originally Posted By: TADutchman
As you know, advanced custom piano presets for the CA93/CA63 include dynamic dual voice piano layering where no looping is audible at all. Please be my guest and demonstrate that Yamaha CLP and Roland HP series also support this dynamic layering of acoustic piano voices. yawn

1. I could layer two separate piano voices on our old P120 (not comparable?).
2. Roland SN doesn't really need this to sound good.

The idea of masking looping with more looping layered on top makes me kind of tired. I'm sure it helps the inherent lameness of looping, but to me it is firmly in the 2 * wrong != right category.

And before anyone thinks I'm singling out Kawai for ridicule here, I'm really not. James brought up the subject of minor stretching in the CA63/CN33 and again failed to clarify it with feedback from his own company. Since I can't read minds over at the Kawai engineering department I'm at a loss as to how to even discuss the issue.
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#1510030 - 09/06/10 11:35 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: Kawai James]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
The FP7 uses PHAII.
The FP4 uses PHAII alpha.


Well that proves my (previously stated) concern about assuming that all PHA III keyboard actions will be the same. This is not a valid assumption. Why do I say this? I say this because my experience is that not all PHA II actions are equal.

I play PHA II (FP7) and PHA II (HP-207 and RD-700GX). The FP7 is inferior, bottoms out much harder, is more fatiguing etc. They are not the same action, even if they have the same name designation. I enjoy the action far more on the RD and HP than the FP.

Some here are assuming that the NX PHA III action will be identical to that of V-Piano. Well, maybe -but I don't think you can make any assumptions about action.

The proof will be in the spanking - of the keys.
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