I try not to swoon; otherwise I'll hit my head on the coffee table again.

LOL! Swooning is best done while reclining or within falling distance of a fainting couch:

Say what? Are you serious?



I think having a discussion with someone as closed minded and ignorant as yourself is pointless. Your statement

"Well, yes - but this is one of the sources of it's greatness - who the hell needs stife, angst, darkness and conflict? There's more than enough of that in the world - we don't need it in our art, and especially not in our music."

is ridiculous on so many levels. First of all, who are you to decide what WE need in our art and music? So we should just cut out all the works that don't fit into your happy little world? Art is a physical expression of the human condition and the world around us, this includes all emotions and states. Some of the greatest works throughout history were inspired by emotions other than happiness. Should we smash Michelangelo's Pieta? Burn Goya's "The Third of May, 1808", ban a good portion of Beethoven's works? The opening movement of his Moonlight Sonata is one of the most stirring things ever written. It's certainly not happy and upbeat, but I guess you wouldn't know since you don't listen to it. I think you have it backwards now that I think about it, the world doesn't need stife, angst, darkness and conflict, but art definitely does.

I think once the Sturm und Drang movement had subsided, composers became more interested in expressing the sentiments of the Enlightenment. Outside of opera, then, strife and darkness were replaced by repose, humor, and elegance. Voltaire and Beaumarchais instead of Schiller.

Then again, I could be wrong.

Now, this Statement is pretty dark and ladden with a fair amount of conflict (sort of like the kind of art you prefer) - and not very cordial or pleasant at all - in fact, some would say it's downright unproductive, and maybe even somewhat contentious. And the world (or PW for that matter) doesn't need this either

If you're right and I am close-minded and ignorant, then why are you engaging in a pointless discussion with me? (Be careful how you answer this - the moderator is lurking, just waiting for any excuse at all to shut down what had been a really enjoyable thread up to this point).




But, if the world doesn't need it, then why does art need it? If art can be good and joyous and inspiring without it why instill all that negativity into art at all? Ha! I dare you to answer this one

JF

I do think some strife makes the peace all the more appreciable. And Mozart is not all flowers and bunnies, either. Take a listen to Sonata K 332 at 0:30 he's already in a very dark and fiery theme. He weaves in and out seamlessly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cmv9u9aULGo

No one is telling anyone what to like (right?), but if one makes a statement and then is given numerous examples showing that it's not necessarily as the person originally said, then one has to at least concede that point. It's OK not to like something, but to do so based on assumptions or skewing the facts is not really being honest.

Bach or Mozart.......It's all matter of taste of course.......but I agree with Tangleweeds.......indeed Mozart/Haydn......predictable and artificial pretty...

Best regards,

Johan B

Tangleweeds was writing in the past tense, however.

I see you ignored the main point I was trying to make as well as the examples in my post so you could play the victim. I couldn't care less if the moderator is lurking. I stand by what I wrote about you deciding what WE don't need in our art/music.

In regards to your last question, no the world doesn't NEED all that conflict, strife, anger etc, but to communicate human emotions and feelings art does. You've never been angry, or had your heart broken, lost a relative, or had a fight with someone? Ever hear Mozart's Masonic Funeral Music K. 477? This is one of my favorite Mozart pieces partly because it goes against his typical style and conveys the sadness typical of a funeral. I wish more of his works conveyed emotions and feelings such as that piece. I am not a Mozart hater, I enjoy many of his works, and my original post actually defended why I think a lot of his work is upbeat and similar in structure. You are the one who said "who the hell needs stife, angst, darkness and conflict? There's more than enough of that in the world - we don't need it in our art, and especially not in our music."

You mean like couples who deliberately fight just to enjoy the pleasures of making up?




Are you referring to some "one" in particular, or to any "one" in general?

JF

You wish more of his works conveyed the dreary, morbid and utterly sad emotions of a Funeral Dirge or March? Really? Now, that is sad. You should try to lighten up and cheer up. What the world needs is more funeral music like they play in New Orleans with the marching brass band playing a spirited version of "When the Saints Go Marching In" giving their loved one a rousing sendoff to that great "sweet by and by" in the sky!

JF

Hate to sound like the ignorant naysayer but a lot of Mozart's more popular stuff, and some of his less popular stuff, sounds like toy music to me and I don't really like it that much. This could just be conditioning from television and movies though, I guess.

However, the pieces you posted are fine.

I don't know if it's that you don't read my posts, or what, but I cleary said I wish more of his pieces showed more emotion and feeling such as K. 477. I doubt you have even heard it, because it is beautifully sad and poignant, not morbid and dreary. I also think it's funny that you think I need to lighten up and cheer up. You don't even know me. You are basing it on the fact that I appreciate a piece of music which you probably haven't even heard.

It's never helpful or encouraging when one sounds like that - but I understand - I get that way when I talk about our present administration and Congress in Washington However, one should never, ever say "nay" to Mozart's music, as this could be taken by some cynics as proof of your own assessment of the type or quality of your particular naysaying - and as far as TV/movie "conditioning" goes we all suffer from that moronic and hazardous influence to one degree or another, much to the detriment of our brain's proper functioning




Thanks - I thought so too - but the great thing is that there were numerous others (not quite an inexhaustible supply) to choose from.

JF

Of course it's all a matter of taste , but then there's good taste and there's not-so-good taste (a characteristic which some people, present company excepted, are all too eager to put on display)...and while it's certainly predictable that the vast majority of Mozart's works are highly creative and joyously uplifting and throughly listenable, I defy anyone to define the concept of "artificial prettiness' in any way that makes any rational sense at all...

JF

Ha! there's nothing more satisfying (or egotistical and arrogant ) than quoting oneself.

The reference above to some of Mozart's most delightful, joyous and listenable music that can be found in his wonderful Divertimenti and Serenades for small chamber orchestras (of various formations) inspired me to compile an abbreviated "listen-list" for those new to his great music (or those who are familiar with his piano and violin Concerti, the Symphonies, the piano Sonatas, etc., but who have never heard these marvelous works).

Check out these on CD by some world-class musical ensembles such as The Orpheus Chamber Orchestra, The Academy of Ancient Music, The Academy of St. Martin-In-The-Fields, etc.

1. Divertimento in D, K.251 (highly recommended as a starting point)

2. Serenade in D, K.239 "Serenata Notturna"

3. Divertimento in F, K.248

4. Serenade in D, K.250 "Haffner"

5. Divertimento in B flat, K.361 "Gran Partita"

6. Serenade in D, K.320 "Posthorn"

7. Divertimento in D, K.247

8. Divertimento in D, K.205


Enjoy!

JF

And how could I forget probably the most well-known work in this category (although not necessarily the best):

9. Serenade in G, K.525 "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik"

JF

Here's another piece in this category that I forgot about that is well worth checking out:

10. Serenade in D, K.185 "Antretter"

JF

And for a wonderful introduction to Mozart's gorgeous opera music you can't beat one of my favorite CDs from one of the best sopranos ever:

Kiri Te Kanawa - Mozart Opera Arias

JF

And here's an outstanding 6 CD collection of the wonderful Divertimentos (very reasonably priced):

The Complete Mozart Divertimentos

JF

Hehe, this is fun .

This is a very subjective argument folks! Ofc, its still an interesting argument. That said, for me some of Mozart's songs are out of the world, including some of his concertos. But on a whole, I like Beethoven better, maybe because his music is a little more simpler to my ears. Maybe as I grow up (muscially), I'll start to appreciate Mozart, Bach and Chopin better.

But I've one question to JF. Lol, why pull Pachelbel? :P. Poor chap. Why cant they both be beautiful. Canon is THE MOST beautiful song for me. But again its very subjective.

@JF: Very nice phrasings everywhere . Loved reading ur comments .

Hi JF,
I just fell into this tread, and enjoyed your comments about Mozart What is the name of the Mozart work on your first post. Also, I do have to agree with Mohan, the Canon is a beautiful piece.
Dot

Isn't it interesting how we all have a tendency to "read into something" we hear or read what isn't really "in there" (even if we assume that it's implied) - if you'll notice I never said (or implied) that Pachelbel's "Canon" wasn't gorgeous or beautiful (I assure you that I think it is) - the title of this topic simply implied that in addition to Pachelbel there were the many beautiful works of Mozart - which, now that I think about it again, in totality far outweigh in significance or creative genius the "one-hit-wonder" that was Pachelbel.

JF

Thanks guys - me too

JF

If you mean the first one it's the 2nd movement from the Piano Concerto No.14 in Eb Major.

JF

In all fairness Johann Pachelbel (1653-1706) was much, much more than a "one-hit-wonder" - he was very popular in his own time and his music was widely played and critically acclaimed and consists of numerous instrumetal and vocal pieces in a number of different forms. In fact, the good old boy was rather prolific. Here's a "short" list:

Pachelbel's works

JF

I find it very interesting that - as of right now - there have been 2,323 hits on this thread - pleae feel free to provide any feedback you wish on any of the Mozart pieces I've recommended. Thanks.

JF

First mozart had to convince me as well, I mean he has SO MANY piano concerto's and symphonies, its hard to believe they could ever be worth very much. But after learning more of his music, just last monday I went to the KV219 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D6THFeEVJQ&feature=related its just breathtakingly beautiful and full of emotion, nothing artificial about it.

Listen @ 4:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrtVWKU7d5U

I loved it

But, why would one assume this? Quantity and quality are not necessarily mutually exclusive - especially when dealing with creative genius. In fact, it's one of it's defining characteristics, e.g., Shakespeare or Bach or Dickens or Rogers & Hammerstein.

Hence, Mozart and the amazing quality of the incredible quantity of his output.

JF

Noooooooo, DOWN with Pachelbel! I had to play that freaking canon 5 thousand billion times when I was in my school orchestra. In fact, it was instrumental in my decision to quit the said orchestra because we played it waaay too much. And I was a violinist, not a cellist. If I played cello, I would probably have skipped all the rehearsals and put a recording on my chair playing the same stupid eight notes over, and over, and over again.

My vote is Mozart: 1, Pachelbel -1000. Mozart is a pretty awesome composer. Because he started composing at such an early age, there are things of his you can play at all levels (it's probably how this "kids piano recital" image of his came about). There are great emotional depths that you can reach while playing his music too. For example, I recently learned his sonata in c minor (K457). The first movement is very strong and stately, the second is elegant and dreamy, and the third is frantic and dramatic. I definitely wouldn't describe it as cutesy music for kids.