Hi Roy,
right again, and I've experience in all of this. The only thing an accelerated test program doesn't factor in is how the material properties change in time. Of course assumptions can be made...

Please don't think I'm against plastic actions. If anyone asked me which to choose, I'd probably advise them to get one if they lived in a harsh climate.
Where I live in the UK however, I've never had problems with harsh conditions, or as a result wooden actions. I certainly enjoy working on wooden actions.

Maybe if I ever get the opportunity to regulate, re-pin, or re-bush a plastic action then I'll become a convert (or not). Maybe they don't need re-pinning or re-bushing? - If that were true even after 15 years I'd almost definitely be a convert!

As I say, we'll see.

Another key factor in judging Larry's positions is that of "agreement".

His publications are widely read by those interested in, and well-informed about pianos and the piano industry. Over the many years and many publications there is widespread agreement on his writings. This add a level of credibility that transends his personal opinions.

I don't find the comparison of pianos to cars or watches very helpful, but most people only buy one or two pianos in their lifetime. Typically, we buy a car much more frequently. The average person understands the difference in car brands, models, and the different levels of pricing. They know that a Mercedes costs much more than a Hyundai. The first-time piano buyer will recognize the name Steinway and maybe a few others. Comparing brands and models of pianos to instantly recognizable cars makes an attempt to explain the very large prices differences.

I was thinking about this for awhile and I play differently than I drive and I have different expectations of my piano or my SUV or my watch for that matter.....or do I?

I drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee, its my second, because it's reliable, it's easy to drive, goes almost anywhere in any weather, and works great for my carpool. My previous Jeep ran like a top and was still going strong when I traded it in after 12 years and 100K miles. I'd love to own a Bugatti, but I'd need to hire a battalion of armed guards whenever I drove it in this town.

I wear a Citizen Eco-drive watch with a steel band because it looks good, it's solar powered, runs reliably, wears like iron, and it's waterproof. No muss, no fuss. I'd love to wear a Patek, but no one I associate with would ever notice or appreciate my fine taste in watches.

My Yamaha sounds good, holds it's tune, was very well-prepped, looks great, and doesn't have the new piano sticky keys or weird rattles. I enjoy it's tone and absolutely love it's action. Again, no muss, no fuss. I would love a Steinway B, but I don't really have a room with the proper acoustics to show off it's beautiful sounds and I certainly don't entertain anyone in my home that would really appreciate it.

I would rather spend my time and money studying music and developing my playing so that my friends and music teachers think, "Gee...she plays so well, it's a shame she's so limited by her piano!", instead of "Gee....she owns such an incredible grand piano, too bad she really can't play it!"

Steve, with all due respect, there is a big difference between respect for what Larry has done over the years and what he has written in general, and agreement with the specific rating classifications that have been put forth in the Piano Buyer,which the poster was referencing. The lively (shall we say) debates about the ratings on this forum alone should be evidence of that.

Sophia

Kawai still uses traditional bushings AFAIK. Wiggly keys can be found among older Kawais like all other pianos. If I am in a good mood they are called fun keys... but usually not

I like how you put it!

I don't think Steve was necessarily talking about most PW posters when he talked about general agreement. A significant majority of PW posters who discuss the PB rankings are highly biased since they are either dealers or owners whose personal choice of piano is being disucssed. IMO the huge majority of posters at PW(including myself) are well informed about the piano industry only compared to the general public. The dealers are, in general, much better informed but their posts will never say something negative about a brand they sell.

Besides this I don't think "agreement" with PB rankings implies exact agreement on the tier and even sub tier. It's more something like, how many would say a tier 3 piano should be a tier 1 piano or vice versa? The discussion at PW tends more to be like "Shouldn't this tier 4B piano really be 4A?"

Also if you spend millions for a "Harmony" concert grand like this wealthy chinese businessman spent for a Hamburg made Steinway Art Case Grand - there are compromises:

- it lacks a self player mechanism
- it lacks a quiet time system...
- it lacks the extra keys of a 97keys Boesendorfer..
- it lacks the extra length of an F308 Fazioli
- it lacks the decent sound style of an old double-strung square..


Lots of compromises..

Steinway WISHES it were a Honda! Imagine you buy a car, and the dealership tells you that it needs another 40 hours of tuning and regulation before it is ready for you... A car dealership spends only a day on car preparation.

In strong agreement with Roy123, and that goes for other piano parts besides action parts. There is no reason pianos need to be so heavy. There is no reason why wood must be used in them. The sound they produce is a factor of felt hammers striking (and then pulling away) from metal strings under high tension. Other materials could (and should) be used. When will Renner start making action parts out of aluminum or aluminum alloys? Steingraeber has started using soundboards out of something other than wood. We got rid of using ivory for keys, a good thing in my opinion, good for the elephants maybe, though there are still poachers in Africa and I guess the real situation for the African elephant is still precarious. I look forward to the day when two strong men can lift a concert grand off a stage.

Okay, here is my opinion.
Steinway = Prime Rib
Yamaha = NY Strip
Kawai = Kansas City Strip
Fazolli = Fillet Mignon
Bosendorfer = Surf and Turf
Samick = Ground Round
Young Chang = Ground Chuck
Boston = T-bone
Hailun = Ground Sirloin
okay, now I'm hungry, I'm about to fire up the grill. Pass the A1

Haha:)
Don't forget the Steingraeber Kobe Veal...

To my tastes, the Bosendorfer is more of a Porterhouse with a generous tenderloin... which I like with daddies favourite and tabasco habanero.

Dear David,

I know you are making a point, but it got me thinking (dangerous, I know).

Two men moving a concert grand is common in the industry right now. Our movers do it about twice per month. Our movers also say it is all about technique. One does not need to be Charles Atlas to move a concert grand they say, but I am not so sure. For instance, Nestor rebuilds pianos for a living and Mike moves them. Can you guess which is Mike?





By the way, the man on the left is 6 ft. tall - just for perspective.

Sorry if I am hijacking the thread.

I know car analogies have their limitations but I'll indulge in this topic as I find it quite fun.

I wonder if pianos are like cars in that most of us probably couldn't access the performance out of an F1 car without Alonso's skills. You could drive it fast in a straight line. Just as one could press the keys on a Steinway and get a "nice" sound. Hence the average owner of an expensive piano is similar to an average collector of ex-F1 race cars.

Japanese cars are built primarily to appeal to the Japanese - stress free driving in city streets. German cars are designed to run on the autobahn. Japanese pianos need to be suited to Japanese music. German pianos to German music. Hence one's preference of piano sound is colored by the type of music and sounds (including language sounds) that the individual's ear is constantly exposed to.

I can see some room for the proposition that the Japanese appreciate zen like simplicity. Which may be interpreted by some ears as lacking delicious overtones.

German cars are made from German steel. Lasts forever. Japanese cars from Japanese steel. Lasts well past the useful life of the technology, or one's lifetime, but not designed to last forever. With the cost of one expensive German piano, one could "consume" two brand new Japanese pianos in one's piano playing life time.

Hope I've not over indulged in this limited analogy.

Sorry, to me comparing pianos to cars and watches is just ludicrous. A watch is good if it shows the correct time, and accessorly looks good. Any cheap watch shows correct time, and Steinways don't look better than a Kawai or Wendl and Lung. Cars are good if they're safe and don't consume too much gasoline. Pianos are about making art.

Now personally, I've never liked Kawais, but I think Yamahas in their prize class are very good pianos. But I've tested many great Yamaha S (the upperclass, handcrafted variety) sitting next to great Steinways or Bösendörfers. And the difference is very obvious: The Steinways and B's just have a more subtle, rich, complex sound, even though the top Yamaha's are technically near-equivalent. But then again, I have also played sub-par or ill-prepared Steinways, and I preffered even lowly garden variety C series Yamahas that cost a third of the Steinways price. So I think the issue isn't solely brand prestige. If the Steinway/Fazioli.Bösendörfer/Steingraeber musical superiority (which seems self-evident to my ears) is worth the price premium over the top Yamaha S/ Shigeru Kawai is an altogether different question. I personally have always prefered a used Steinway rather than a new Yamaha or Kawai at the same price, but that's my choice.

Remember, making sense isn't the only criterion.

It's enough for it to be fun, or funny -- and it's both of those, even if it doesn't make much sense.


That makes two things we disagree on.