Oh no, did I miss something in the more than 100 pages of this thread which I have lost track of?

I'm assuming the latest recordings are of the EBVT III which I have already tried.

Every so often I make some videos for my website, and even pay a local jazz pianist to come in and perform for the recordings. Maybe Mr. Hyman would also accept the offer.

Ha....very good Nick.

All you can do is ask the fellow(Hyman) and hopefully he will be able to spare the time.
I don't know of any pianist that can resist a freshly tuned instrument whatever the mathematics of musical scale may be.

Hello Nick,

Glad to see you again! Dick Hyman is one of my favorite artists. He is a monster pianist, deserving of the very finest piano but I know for sure he has not always had that. I have a recording from the Musical Heritage Society where he performs at Chung's Chinese Restaurant on a piano with bass strings gone tubby from the grease in the air from the kitchen! The music is fabulous anyway.

I would be particularly interested to find out how he likes or dislikes the contrasts in key color that he finds in the EBVT III. Jazz typically uses a mix of keys, thereby often hiding key color contrast but depending upon the context, you can still hear it. I often tune for two local Jazz artists who also compose and have been my customers for 30 years. One has a Steinway, the other a Mason & Hamlin. They have both embraced the EBVT III and have me tune for them when the perform publicly. One had me tune for his CD made in 2002 which is on my website but all of that will soon be replaced with music recorded at GP's, including some tracks recorded by Dick Hyman for the LX system. I particularly like his interpretations of Fats Waller compositions.

I agree with you completely about unisons. You can't do better than zero beat. GP's piano is very challenging to tune and keep in tune yet he has managed to produce broadcast quality work with which I am very impressed.

Thanks Nick! My tuning expertise with these unisons has improved with time and practice thanks to Bill giving me some good tips. As Bill mentioned, my piano is very difficult to tune, and getting it to stay there is also not easy. I am still not happy with that aspect...but will just keep going at it.

Yes, that was the LX...what a great opportunity to have Dick Hyman visit you and try EBVT III in person! I hope he accepts your invitation!

Credit goes to Patrick (pppat) for his excellent mic position, and his suggestion we use 44.1/24 bit on the Korg....those 2 suggestions made for some well recorded sounds.

We sure did accomplish a lot Bill...am honored you feel that my replication of your tuning is worthy enough for your website!

Hi Bill,

We had made so many recordings those 4 days...65 to be exact, no wonder I missed these 2!

Gregg did a nice job here, and while there are some wrong notes here and there, understandable given we had only a few days to record etc, it's still great to hear how EBVT III brings out the colors and contrasts of the music.

"Carousel Waltz" http://www.box.net/shared/pa4l748p69

Chopin "Fantasie Impromtu" http://www.box.net/shared/fybdrxvnd0

(If you can download these then listen to them through headphones, the quality is much better than the box.net player, as is also the case with all the mp3 files I have posted)

Hey GPman, I am wondering (might be slightly OT here), how often do you take out your tuning hammer to touch up the tuning trying to keep it at this level?

Hi Victor,

My ears are so attuned to any out of tune unisons now, if the unison is not of 'broadcast' quality, I am there with the tuning lever....(woe is me) .......which is just about after every time I have either the LX or Ampico play the piano....it's like a concert pianist is playing every day. The middle and lower part of the piano, the unisons stay where I put them pretty much.....it's that 5th-6th octave area that I am constantly cleaning up the unisons. Those last recordings, I had just finished tuning the whole piano....and between each piece, I cleaned up just about 4-5 notes in that 5th-6th octave area.

GP, You are experiencing what a standby recording session technician goes through, only you are both the recording engineer who calls for "Tuner!" and the tuner!

Here is a link to the classic Steinway tuning file I use for virtually any Steinway grand (and many other pianos) as a basis for tuning the EBVT III. It can actually get many pianos very close to what they ought to be in the EBVT III with just a little aural verification, particularly in the wound strings. The amount of stretch both high and low is quite moderate.

It was originally done several years ago for a woman who is a cellist and who lives in the far west suburbs of Milwaukee. I am a frequent guest in her fine home which has a chamber music concert hall attached to it. She often hosts concerts of chamber music with very high caliber musicians.

Somehow, her circa 1890 restored Steinway Model D had such a perfectly and predictably smooth scale, that the tuning I did one day on her piano has worked for me ever since for any Steinway. I use it for the Steinway model D I tune for the Janesville (WI) Performing Arts center that included the concert of the Boogie Woogie artist, Michael Kasehammer, George Winston and a host of others with no changes at all to the program except that I always tune the low bass wound strings aurally.

I also use that program with no changes (except as noted) to tune the Steinway D at the Madison Technical College for all performances. In both cases, the Janesville and Madison College theaters, I rebuilt the actions of both pianos with genuine Steinway parts, even though I rarely offer my services as a rebuilder. They made me do it!

The Janesville piano has now been operating for 20 years with the action parts I installed and have carefully maintained. The Madison College piano has now served for 3 years. There has never been a negative comment in either venue about either piano but each has often elicited positive and voluntary praise from the artists.

I owe much gratitude to the training I received from both Bill Garlick RPT and Scott Jones RPT at the Steinway factory on how to really make a Steinway sound like one. All was made possible through my membership and long term RPT credentials with PTG and association with a local Steinway dealer.

Next month, I will tune for Steinway artist, Stephen Hough at a local (big) church venue where the music minister and pianist engaged me as the resident technician, solely on the basis of preference for the EBVT III. Both the previous technician and any technician from the current local Steinway dealer were turned down for the service of the newly acquired Steinway Model B because they could not tune the EBVT III.

I feel very confident that as more artists and the public become aware of how much more enhanced all music could sound from their piano, the more they will embrace the EBVT III and other alternative temperament designs.

I fondly recall after spending a day with Jerry Groot how he, a technician all too familiar with the piano to really sit down on a Saturday night and play it, did so with a gleaming smile on his face the entire time. There really is something to enjoy that lies beyond the norm of standard practice.

Any technician is encouraged to try the data on this file and report back with reactions from both the technician's and the pianist's perspectives:

http://www.box.net/shared/7ddnja0h84

Bill,

Thanks for the link, I am going to try this tuning on a S&S B I will tune in a few days.

But: In your file the values for B6 and B7 are missing, in fact the last row of the third table is missing.

Oops! The last row got edited off somehow! I will have to fix that and repost the link when I do. I will have to delete the file from my boxnet account now so that nobody else gets the file with missing information. That chart took a long time to make. In the end, it had two pages but the second one was blank. I finally succeeded in cutting off the blank page but it appears that took the last row with it when I did. It will be a pain trying to restore it. I already tried!

In the meantime, the values for B6 & B7 are:

B6: +14.0 B7: +38.0

Thanks Bill. I figured out B6: 15.5 and B7: 36.5

So I was wrong in both notes.

I'll try it.

You weren't off by much. I fixed the tuning file and the format is even better now. I was able to edit the original post so the link is there but here it is again for your convenience:

http://www.box.net/shared/7ddnja0h84

Interesting. For comparison here are the offsets as computed by my program using a sample set of Steinway D inharmonicity measurements:


Kees

Kees,

"authentic" recordings like the one you suggest have been tried many times before, but the trick is to NOT go for replication, only for simulation.

The "dead-on" recording techniques are, to me (and to a majority of sound engineers) inferior to what we are capable of "tricking" the ear into hearing utilizing the stereo standards (NOS, ORTF etc.)-

Quite many replication techniques have been proposed through the years. I have still to hear something as convincing as NOS, or ORTF.

Thanks GPM, these guide marks are remarkably simple, yet powerful. Please share them with anybody who have been mislead into believing that high quality stereo recording is set aside for a chosen few.

To recapture:

1) keep the chosen setup (in this case, NOS), and put that setup in the spot where the piano sounds good.

2) Record in a higher resolution than the final output (24 bit ~144 dB, 16 bit (CD or MP3 quality) ~96 dB. Recording at 24 bits, you can technically 'waste' almost 50 dB and still end up with a good quality recording in the final output file.)







Haha, yes - and if the piano player is moonlightning as a piano tuner and a recording engineer, the picture is complete! (Has happened to me quite a few times since I joined this forum…)

@Jake,

sorry I missed your post and didn't reply until now. Yes, I'm sure I did - I have no memory of doing otherwise, and NOS is my 'second nature' stereo setup

Hi Patrick,

Thanks for the compilation of instructions...very helpful.

Here is a fun piece, a fox trot, "I Got Rhythm" by George and Ira Gershwin, in EBVT III, taken from an Ampico roll and encoded for the LX system. I also added the video on my YouTube page. This time I tried the piano lid at half-stick, with the NOS config as well. Not sure I like it as much as the full lid.

"I Got Rhythm" http://www.youtube.com/user/AmpicoGPM#p/a/u/0/7BkXCp2x0ow

"I Got Rhythm" Stereo Recording: http://www.box.net/shared/ubkt10xg8y

GP:

Was the boxnet thing and the youtube thing recorded at the same time? So the boxnet is at half-stick?

Fun stuff!

--Andy

Depends what you want. If you really want to know "what it actually sounds like" binaural is the way to go

If you want the best sounding music you can improve upon reality somewhat. So for 99.9% of people that are recording music you are right.

For recordings showing the difference between tunings realism is the most important I think.

On as side note I've used these binaural mikes a few times when shooting videos of incredibly important historic events like my kids learning to walk and it really captures the moment in every detail aurally.

Kees

... given that you record, and reproduce it all, with your own head as a combined mic stand and target

To me these techniques have been useless for sharing any sound experiences with others, as the recordings are highly personal. But I find it a fascinating method, for sure.

Andy, yes, both the Youtube video and box.net recording were recorded with the lid on the short stick.

Here is another example, but this time the lid is in the full position, however, for some reason, the Zoom H4 decided to add some strange high-pitched sound in the background. Never the less, you can hear the difference in the video and to some degree in the recording......a more full and open sound, and the treble rings more.

"There's A Small Hotel" in EBVT III http://www.youtube.com/user/AmpicoGPM#p/a/u/0/YJCikPQH5GE

"There's A Small Hotel" in EBVT III http://www.box.net/shared/46fznxgqjs

This is an extremely rare Ampico roll, issued in the summer of 1936. Ampico roll # 215791

Yes, GP! I thought it sounded less bright at half-stick, but less full is the better description! The sound of "There's A Small Hotel" is beautiful!

I am at the very, very, very beginning stages of refurbishing an old Haddorff 56" upright. Bill finally got to start fiddling with it two weeks ago. He replaced some broken butt plates. He tuned it (as best he could, given it's condition!...). He showed me how to replace the missing keytops and clean the bass strings, which I did. When I finally got it back together, I made a couple of recordings.

Beware: there are many broken butt plates, so you'll hear some clacking. Also, there is a crack in the bridge in the D6 area, so it won't tune there until that's repaired. This piano is in rough shape, but I think you can hear the potential. I am going to use the sound of your Mason & Hamlin as my standard! But still, here is my Haddorff in EBVT III.

Scriabin Prelude Op.11 No.9 in EBVT III

Scriabin Prelude Op.13 No.3 in EBVT III

--Andy Strong

Very enjoyable and entertaining Andy!

You know, your "Haddie" has great resonance...if I did not know it was a 56' upright, I would have thought it a grand piano!...and the tone is very nice as well. It sounds great in EBVT III!

Thanks, GP! I posted a "treated version" over in Pianist Corner, Member Recordings, where I used the filter on my sound editing program to quiet down the hiss and I added a little reverb to dress it up a bit. It sounds even more like a grand over there! I just thought, for all those who like to hawk down on the raw, untreated sounds over here, I'd give you the raw untreated sound.

BTW, "There's A Small Hotel" and "The Continental" (posted way, way earlier), are both on my list of "gotta learn that one!" Thanks, again, for tuning, recording and posting all of this excellent music!

--Andy

Time for a new recording! Here is "The Perfect Nanny" by Richard M. and Robert B. Sherman, in an arrangement from the 1963 Mary Poppins Souvernir Song Album (Burbank, CA: Wonderland Music Co.), played by me on my 1903 Haddorff 56" upright.

I love the way the different chord intervals sound through all of the modulations. This is a cute tune, and I love the way EBVT III makes it sound!

The Perfect Nanny

--Andy Strong

Here is my contribution to the "'George Shearing Interpretations for Piano" Book Series E-cital." (WHAT? Well, check out the thread in Pianist Corner, where this recording is cross-posted... I'm trying to get something started! Thanks to btb and Pianoloverus!...)

Over The Rainbow, by Harburg and Arlen, "George Shearing Interpretations for Piano," book No.1, [the red one...] (New York: Robbins Music Corp., 1954).

This is played in my living room on the Haddorff 56" upright, recently tuned to the EBVT III temperament by Bill Bremmer, RPT. The recording is not enhanced with reverb or EQ or anything. This is the way the Haddorff sounds. Sorry about the microphone hiss. There are a few unisons out of tune already in the upper registers (loose pins), and the bridge is cracked at D6, so that one is way out of tune until we can get that fixed. Also, my apologies to Jerry Groot, RPT, because a week ago, I promised him I would take the action out and start replacing the hammer butt plates to keep from destroying the hammer butts by playing with wobbly hammers. (If you listen closely, you can hear those clackers!) I am a day late, so I am sure in his eyes, I am a low-life weasle for not keeping my word. But this was an emergency!!! Sorry, Jer!

--Andy

Uh huh, I read that, this time. I miss a lot of things written in here but not all of them Andy. I'm sure the pitch raise Bill had to do on your piano contributed to the unison's demise too. It often does.

Actually, when you have loose butt plates and the hammers wobble back and forth you hit on so many different spots on the hammer because of the wobbliness that the hammer can wear out much quicker than normal. You want the hammer to strike in the same spot each time not to the left then to the right then left etc. And yes, it does also create more wear in the lower part of the butt too. So, get cracking dude! Or, do I have to come down there with a whip? SNAP!

After doing "Over The Rainbow," I just had to play another Shearing arrangement! I give you:


"I'm In The Mood For Love" by McHugh and Fields, "George Shearing Interpretations for Piano," book No.1, [the red one, again...] (New York: Robbins Music Corp., 1954).

Since the Haddorff is in pieces on my livingroom floor for the wobbly hammer eradication project, I played this on The Mighty Lester, 36" spinet, tuned, as you know, to EBVT III. However, it was last touched for tuning in April. This recording above is plain--no enhancements whatsoever. I put the microphones in some kleenex boxes (my mic stands) on top of a stack of music on each end of the closed lid, pointing at each other toward the center of the piano. I mashed the soft pedal down and I played!

I'd like to record this one again, when the Haddorff is ready, to see if I can get a little more sultry tone out of the bigger piano. Still, this was a fun arrangement to play, and for all of the weather changes we've had since April, the Lester stills sounds pretty sweet! My playing got a little too chordy in the B section. Sorry. I lost track of the notion that the story of the song comes from the girl's perspective and I got excited like a guy! Still, I hope you like it!

--Andy

P.S. Crossposted in the George Shearing thread and in Member Recordings in Pianist Corner, with a "treated" version that puts the piano into a "room" and softens the tone a little to make it sound more "grand" (hopefully). Well, o.k. If you insist... "I'm In The Mood For Love" treated version

Finally back home!....I am up way too late here ....could not stop the LX playing my piano!...Ari's new "Classical West" hammers are the culprits.

While I was away from home working, I had the hammers professionally installed, action regulated to the hammers, etc. and had my tech also tune the piano to Bill Bremmer's latest EBVT III figures to save time.....he used the Verituner. The only thing I did was to clean up some of the unisons before recording. (his tuning is staying put better than mine :))

Mind you, the hammers only have about 7 hours play on these recordings, and they already sound incredible. The more they are played, the better they sound. Some voicing will be in order eventually...but at this point, I am just going to have the LX play away.

What a sound...so clean/clear, sustain is fantastic, and the tone is amazing, even at this early stage. I am blown away by the sound already!! I think Ari has a fantastic hammer here for the market. They are evidently unlike any hammer out there. Perhaps Ari can chime in and explain them further.

In the meantime, here are some recordings I made yesterday. I have my Korg MR-1000 recorder back, and I used both the Rode NT-5's and the Avenson STO-2 mics, using Pat's mic configuration. (thanks Patrick!) NO processing of any kind was used.
More recordings to follow. Enjoy with a pair of headphones for the best results.

I guess you could say I have a true hybrid piano...original 1925 soundboard, case, then the Wapin bridge mod, Ari's hammers and Bass strings, the Wessell/Nickel/Gross back-action carbon kit, and to top it off, Bill's EBVT III. I wonder what the original builders of this piano would say if they could see and hear it now!

Bill, as you can hear, your EBVT III shines!! Hat is off to Michael Walthen as well for the Wapin! Of course kudos to Wayne Stahnke for the LX system!

Congrats Ari on a fantastic new hammer!

1. Dick Hyman Plays Fats Waller on the LX, from the "Live Performance" Jazz Series, Rode NT-5 Mics http://www.box.net/shared/0tjoyi6mrl

2. Hyman/Fats Waller on the LX, from the "Live Performance" Jazz Series, Avenson STO-2 mics http://www.box.net/shared/74b34fxjh0

3. Ravel "Ondine" from "Gaspard de la Nuit" played by Katherine Bacon from the "Live Performance" Series for the LX, transcribed from a Welte Piano Roll. STO-2 mics
http://www.box.net/shared/a3gq1x7tqh

4. Bauer "Barberini's Minuet" played by Katherine Bacon from the "Live Performance" Series for the LX, transcribed from a Welte Piano Roll. Avenson STO-2 mics http://www.box.net/shared/5gmcxd645c

5. Paganini-Liszt "Caprice in A minor" played by Katherine Bacon from the "Live Performance" Series for the LX, transcribed from a Welte Piano Roll. Avenson STO-2 mics http://www.box.net/shared/yk738dijh5

These are my favorites so far! Wonderful - could you elaborate on the tuning? Did the tech use Bill's tuning figures for each note, or EBVT offsets applied to a Verituner calculation?

Ron Koval
chicagoland