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#1509903 - 09/06/10 07:08 AM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: Teodor]
Teodor Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/16/09
Posts: 708
Loc: Bulgaria
I am not playing now and it's not healed, sorry but it has nothing to do with playing piano. I have not played since MAY 30th|!!!

I'd be quite happy if the problem was that I could not play piano now. I hate to do anything by using my hands now because it irritates my condition.


Edited by Teodor (09/06/10 07:10 AM)
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#1509929 - 09/06/10 08:51 AM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: Teodor]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Didn't you say 'it's not something you'd need pain killers for, it's not even real pain'?
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#1509988 - 09/06/10 10:36 AM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: keyboardklutz]
Teodor Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/16/09
Posts: 708
Loc: Bulgaria
well it gets very real if I keep pushing through it, at first it's just annoying
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#1510108 - 09/06/10 01:19 PM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: Teodor]
Basia C. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/09
Posts: 347
Loc: Sweden
Keyboardklutz, you often give excellent advice. In this case, however, don't you think it's not really appropiate to give medical advice through the forum? I mean, what if you are wrong, and Teo's doctors' are right?
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#1510141 - 09/06/10 02:26 PM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: Teodor]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
I think if your technique were appropriate it would just stay annoying. As soon as you attack the keyboard it's going to do damage, stroke it gently! Basia, I would never countenance someone playing through pain. Up to that point is fine.
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#1510158 - 09/06/10 03:08 PM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: Teodor]
Teodor Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/16/09
Posts: 708
Loc: Bulgaria
Thanks but I'd rather wait till the irritation and mild aches are gone from everyday activities before I return to piano. I will of course follow your advice and work on technique with a better teacher once I can play again. I hope that by Christmas I'll be fine. I see improvement, it's just not very noticeable day to day but compared to two months ago I am much better.


Edited by Teodor (09/06/10 03:08 PM)
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#1510211 - 09/06/10 04:34 PM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: Teodor]
spanishbuddha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1160
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Teodor
Thanks but I'd rather wait till the irritation and mild aches are gone from everyday activities before I return to piano. I will of course follow your advice and work on technique with a better teacher once I can play again. I hope that by Christmas I'll be fine. I see improvement, it's just not very noticeable day to day but compared to two months ago I am much better.


That's the way. Make it a goal, by Xmas, or maybe 1st January you start playing again.

But, work on a path with your doctor(s) and physio-therapists that get you there, and once there keeps you playing perhaps also with the advice of a teacher so that your posture and technique is right and you don't take on too much too soon of too difficult pieces.

No guarantees, and the dates might be wrong, but that's what I'd do.

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#1510249 - 09/06/10 05:26 PM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: Teodor]
ChopinAddict Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 4707
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
I don't know, maybe it is not what you are looking for or not even good advice, but I was thinking that in the meantime you could play on a "light-touch" keyboard. I had one before buying my DP. The keys are so light it really doesn't require much effort to play. But I am not a doctor, so I am not sure it would be good for you. Besides, maybe it is not good that you get used to the light touch of keyboards.
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#1510396 - 09/06/10 08:45 PM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: Teodor]
chihuahua Offline
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Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 384
Loc: An Oligarchy
Originally Posted By: Teodor
Thank you for all the kind words! About concerts and other things... I just don't like being a spectator, I like doing things actively. Also there is nothing else in music I want to do other then piano.

No swelling, no redness. The pain is not major, it's not something you'd need pain killers for, it's not even real pain, more like being tired all the time and some light burning sensation as if I need to scratch my hand and something is making it itchy from inside... No aches, no problems at night, once I fall asleep it all goes away, if I wake at night my hands feel as if there is nothing wrong with them.

Can't describe them good enough, every day some different part of my hands hurts when I use them. Last two days it's been the knuckles on the middle and ring finger on the right hand, left hand doesn't bother me at all these two days. (well now that I typed the whole thing below, the top of my wrist feels slightly tired it's a weird sensation I never had before)

Normally, after some clicking with the mouse or playing piano my hands feel very tired and I feel a burning sensation that starts on a small area and then if I keep using my hands spreads around fingers, palm, sometimes the wrist. Sometimes it starts at the wrist, sometimes it starts at the fingers, most of the time it's the index finger on the right hand because I use it for clicking with the mouse, sometimes it doesn't hurt.

Rest helps only till I start using my hands again. Holding a book and after a few minutes my hands get random aches (fingers, palm, wrist, random every time).

I'd say I see improvement now that it's been a few months but I can no longer rest because it's driving me nuts. Instead I will do everything as normal, just with more breaks in between stuff. I started playing some computer games again, the first 30 mins are alright, after that I don't feel much like playing since it begins to slightly hurt and it's annoying.

Every time I think about sitting at the piano I associate it with pain now and I bet it will be hard to shake that off even after I have recovered.


Hi Teodor,

Do yourself a favor - go see a NEUROLOGIST.

You are describing some form of parasthesia/nerve root irritation that might indicate a lesion in the cervical spine region.

You might need an MRI of the cervical spine region. This is not a hand/upper limb problem per se.

Good luck!
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#1510555 - 09/07/10 01:30 AM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: Teodor]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
May be this is you:
http://mpatkin.org/ergonomics/rsi/niosh-neck-arm-pain.htm

Also get yourself a copy of You must relax by Edmond Jacobson. There'll be loads of cheap copies for sale at http://www.abebooks.com
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#1510574 - 09/07/10 02:40 AM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: chihuahua]
Teodor Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/16/09
Posts: 708
Loc: Bulgaria
Already saw one and he did tests with the nerves on my hands and around the neck and said everything is fine. Also MRI costs as much as my monthly income.

Originally Posted By: chihuahua
Originally Posted By: Teodor
Thank you for all the kind words! About concerts and other things... I just don't like being a spectator, I like doing things actively. Also there is nothing else in music I want to do other then piano.

No swelling, no redness. The pain is not major, it's not something you'd need pain killers for, it's not even real pain, more like being tired all the time and some light burning sensation as if I need to scratch my hand and something is making it itchy from inside... No aches, no problems at night, once I fall asleep it all goes away, if I wake at night my hands feel as if there is nothing wrong with them.

Can't describe them good enough, every day some different part of my hands hurts when I use them. Last two days it's been the knuckles on the middle and ring finger on the right hand, left hand doesn't bother me at all these two days. (well now that I typed the whole thing below, the top of my wrist feels slightly tired it's a weird sensation I never had before)

Normally, after some clicking with the mouse or playing piano my hands feel very tired and I feel a burning sensation that starts on a small area and then if I keep using my hands spreads around fingers, palm, sometimes the wrist. Sometimes it starts at the wrist, sometimes it starts at the fingers, most of the time it's the index finger on the right hand because I use it for clicking with the mouse, sometimes it doesn't hurt.

Rest helps only till I start using my hands again. Holding a book and after a few minutes my hands get random aches (fingers, palm, wrist, random every time).

I'd say I see improvement now that it's been a few months but I can no longer rest because it's driving me nuts. Instead I will do everything as normal, just with more breaks in between stuff. I started playing some computer games again, the first 30 mins are alright, after that I don't feel much like playing since it begins to slightly hurt and it's annoying.

Every time I think about sitting at the piano I associate it with pain now and I bet it will be hard to shake that off even after I have recovered.


Hi Teodor,

Do yourself a favor - go see a NEUROLOGIST.

You are describing some form of parasthesia/nerve root irritation that might indicate a lesion in the cervical spine region.

You might need an MRI of the cervical spine region. This is not a hand/upper limb problem per se.

Good luck!
_________________________
Music Pedagogy Major (with piano ^_^)




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#1510589 - 09/07/10 03:53 AM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: Teodor]
Rui725 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
Have you tried practicing and slowly pushing your limit on pain? It could simply just be the lack of usage of the hands causing them to be very sensitive. The sensation can be easily amplified, especially when worrying about aggravating it. It has been quite a while since you stopped practicing, but it's definitely worthy a try to slowly ease your back into it. Look up on Youtube, handcare for musicians. I do stretches and warm-ups before tacking any repertoire, I hope this may be of help to you. If there's a will, there's way.

I once hurt my knee playing basketball in my last year of middle school. That didn't stop me from trying out for the high school team. I loved the sport and played even with soreness. Not recommending you do that, but personally, if I was in your shoes, I'd still practice, pain or no pain.

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#1510606 - 09/07/10 06:07 AM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: Rui725]
Teodor Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/16/09
Posts: 708
Loc: Bulgaria
Stretches hurt a bit. I do some light weight lifting now for a month and my hands have improved slightly. I also use the PC longer now than before. Used to be 5 mins , now it's 1 hour.


Edited by Teodor (09/07/10 06:07 AM)
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#1511767 - 09/08/10 08:58 PM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: Teodor]
chihuahua Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 384
Loc: An Oligarchy
Originally Posted By: Teodor
Already saw one and he did tests with the nerves on my hands and around the neck and said everything is fine. Also MRI costs as much as my monthly income.


Nerve conduction tests would be normal unless neuropathy sets in i.e. your nerves are beginning to degenerate (damaged). MRI is costly, but it will detect the problem PRIOR to the undesired and sometimes irreversible neuropathy.

As mentioned before, your symptoms could simply be due to nerve root irritation at the cervical level.

For your information.

Wishing you all the best!


Edited by chihuahua (09/08/10 08:59 PM)
Edit Reason: forgotten to write "you" in the last sentence.
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#1512614 - 09/10/10 01:49 AM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: Teodor]
Teodor Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/16/09
Posts: 708
Loc: Bulgaria
MRI is a win-win anyway since it will probably tell me what's wrong with the hands and where the pain comes from since they can do a whole body scan right? I'll know the reason finally. I'll wait till Christmas and do it then if I am not better by then. I have to pay my tuition fees right now so it's not possible to pay for MRI.


Edited by Teodor (09/10/10 01:49 AM)
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#1518291 - 09/19/10 05:38 AM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: keyboardklutz]
Teodor Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/16/09
Posts: 708
Loc: Bulgaria
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
I think if your technique were appropriate it would just stay annoying. As soon as you attack the keyboard it's going to do damage, stroke it gently! Basia, I would never countenance someone playing through pain. Up to that point is fine.


Following your logic about bad technique causing pain, this guy should be in a world of pain by now, maybe crippled:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPtC20jFEAQ&feature=sub

:P
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#1518302 - 09/19/10 07:19 AM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: Teodor]
apple* Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19476
Loc: Kansas
well teodor.. i am back to check on you. you seem a little better. I sense a tenseness that may respond well to stretching. are you hunched in your chairs? is your diet good with enough calcium? i think you need to figure this out for yourself.

if i press down, then i stretch up. you may have a slight back injury that is affecting your playing. hours of practice and video gaming suggests overuse contributed to your injury.

yoga, tai chi, a stretching video.. you tube has quite a few stretching exercises for carpal tunnel syndrome, as in this one,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUyMNyrOHJQ

i've had issues for years now. i splint my wrists in the winter while sleeping, and stretch when at rest.

...lots of fruits, vegetables and protein with little candy smile

good luck.
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#1518305 - 09/19/10 07:36 AM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: apple*]
lilylady Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 4681
Loc: boston north
Originally Posted By: apple*
you tube has quite a few stretching exercises for carpal tunnel syndrome, as in this one,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUyMNyrOHJQ


Thanks Apple!

I had not seen these before. I looked and tried a couple. I could feel the stretch. Hope they help. I stopped playing for years because of diagnosed severe carpal tunnel.
BTW, for anyone using the splints, do not use for an extended period of time as Dr said that could be detrimental. Instead, train yourself to keep your wrists straight when you sleep (not curled under your pillow smile ) and to drive and sit relaxed with straight wrists.

I also play with a raised bench to prevent flare ups. I can now practice for a couple of hours each day, so there is hope!
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#1518330 - 09/19/10 08:50 AM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: Teodor]
Rui725 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
Originally Posted By: Teodor
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
I think if your technique were appropriate it would just stay annoying. As soon as you attack the keyboard it's going to do damage, stroke it gently! Basia, I would never countenance someone playing through pain. Up to that point is fine.


Following your logic about bad technique causing pain, this guy should be in a world of pain by now, maybe crippled:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPtC20jFEAQ&feature=sub

:P


It's not the best idea to use another's seemingly "bad" technique and use it for your own defense. (Though despite kylelandry's not-perfect technique, it is obviously working for him because he's a very talented pianist).

What might work for someone else does not mean it will work for you. Being able to accept others suggestions is sign of improvement and if a comment about your possibly faulty technique makes you defensive, then not sure how anyone here can help you.


Edited by Rui725 (09/19/10 08:55 AM)

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#1518400 - 09/19/10 11:36 AM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: Rui725]
Teodor Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/16/09
Posts: 708
Loc: Bulgaria
Well that's just it, no one can help me, not even doctors smile




I have not played all summer long and the summer is now over. That's a whole season off of piano and if that was the cause of my pain then I should have been feeling much better now. Not saying my technique doesn't need improving, just that it's unlikely the reason for this suffering. Also I had not gamed for months, I stopped gaming in September 2009, I started piano in December 2009 and studied till May 2010 without using the computer for anything other than watching movies and listening to lots of piano music, Now I have to go back to work and school and I am not healed and I am sure you'll understand why I'm so cranky.

Come to think of it, I never had pain problems before starting piano... I guess it could be the reason.

I have planned great things for my next 3-4 years and if this problem persists it will be hell for me, it will delay me immensely. I am at an age when I have to start building a name and a life for myself and it's kind of annoying when you are not fully capable of doing things like every other person out there without pain. Although I got to admit that this will be a huge lesson for me and anything I achieve now will feel so much better knowing I did it in spite of my problem. I just hope I will be able to take notes in class without too much pain in my hands.


Edited by Teodor (09/19/10 11:57 AM)
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#1518424 - 09/19/10 12:38 PM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: Teodor]
Basia C. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/09
Posts: 347
Loc: Sweden
Sorry to hear you're not better yet, Teodor. Hang in there.

You did mention MRI, which might give you some answers after Christmas. So don't give up just yet!
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#1518425 - 09/19/10 12:43 PM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: Teodor]
Rui725 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
Don't be so quick to quit. Try pushing through the pain, if it doesn't kill you, it'll make you better. Of course this is just saying and only you can judge your own condition. Not having pain before the piano is because nothing you did before is as taxing on the hands. Taxing is a bad word, more like, rigorous or perhaps, demanding. It's only been a short time since you started so you're still adjusting to the extra load that's placed on your hands. In all, wish you the best, whether it's with piano or anything. Hope your hands recover soon.


Edited by Rui725 (09/19/10 12:44 PM)

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#1519325 - 09/20/10 06:50 PM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: Teodor]
sarahsays Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/10
Posts: 28
Loc: Utah, USA
As a 20something, I struggle with wrist pains as well. (We're of the generation where we're ALWAYS on one keyboard or another, right?)

Some pointers to help alleviate tendonitis/carpal tunnel:

- Shake out your hands periodically while playing
- Ensure you take efforts to relax when you play
- Use the gravity of your hand to make the note sound, rather than pressing the keys
- Use a lower chair so that your hands are slightly elevated above your elbows -- I have found this to be helpful
- Soak your hands/wrists in cold water (as cold as you can stand it with ice cubes) for one minute, then switch to hot water (as hot as you can stand it) for one minute. Alternate about 10-15 times, always ending on the cold. Do this once or twice a day.
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Yamaha Clavinova CLP270, Teacher
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#1519537 - 09/21/10 03:05 AM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: sarahsays]
Basia C. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/09
Posts: 347
Loc: Sweden
Originally Posted By: sarahsays

- Shake out your hands periodically while playing


And while using comuter keyboards and mouses!
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#1519648 - 09/21/10 08:30 AM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: Rui725]
landorrano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 1895
Loc: Andorra
Originally Posted By: Rui725
Don't be so quick to quit. Try pushing through the pain, if it doesn't kill you, it'll make you better.


Yeah, you can become an Iron Man pianist.

Seriously, Rui, what you write is ridiculous. One should never, for no reason, play with pain.

If you experience pain you are doing something wrong. That is the long and the short of it.

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#1519724 - 09/21/10 11:29 AM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: landorrano]
Rui725 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: Rui725
Don't be so quick to quit. Try pushing through the pain, if it doesn't kill you, it'll make you better.


Yeah, you can become an Iron Man pianist.

Seriously, Rui, what you write is ridiculous. One should never, for no reason, play with pain.

If you experience pain you are doing something wrong. That is the long and the short of it.


The pain can easily be exaggerated by the mind, it doesn't hurt to try to play a bit through the pain. If it's excruciatingly painful to play a scale, then you have a serious problem. Slowly easing back into it is still better than quitting cold turkey don't you think?


Edited by Rui725 (09/21/10 11:30 AM)

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#1519754 - 09/21/10 12:11 PM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: Rui725]
Basia C. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/09
Posts: 347
Loc: Sweden
Originally Posted By: Rui725
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: Rui725
Don't be so quick to quit. Try pushing through the pain, if it doesn't kill you, it'll make you better.


Yeah, you can become an Iron Man pianist.

Seriously, Rui, what you write is ridiculous. One should never, for no reason, play with pain.

If you experience pain you are doing something wrong. That is the long and the short of it.


The pain can easily be exaggerated by the mind, it doesn't hurt to try to play a bit through the pain. If it's excruciatingly painful to play a scale, then you have a serious problem. Slowly easing back into it is still better than quitting cold turkey don't you think?


I think it should be up to the doctor. They are the once having experience enough to distinguish between what might hurt you, and what might help. There are conditions that get better if you move and exercise the arm, leg or other acing body part, as a kind of physiotherapy (or what its called). But I would not risk damaging my hands further by atempting to decide myself, without medical advice, about which pain I can or cannot play through.
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#1519756 - 09/21/10 12:13 PM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: Rui725]
CebuKid Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1095
Originally Posted By: Rui725
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: Rui725
Don't be so quick to quit. Try pushing through the pain, if it doesn't kill you, it'll make you better.


Yeah, you can become an Iron Man pianist.

Seriously, Rui, what you write is ridiculous. One should never, for no reason, play with pain.

If you experience pain you are doing something wrong. That is the long and the short of it.


The pain can easily be exaggerated by the mind, it doesn't hurt to try to play a bit through the pain. If it's excruciatingly painful to play a scale, then you have a serious problem. Slowly easing back into it is still better than quitting cold turkey don't you think?


Isn't there lots of repertoire that isn't physically demanding and less painful? A great example is The Op. 28 No. 7 that I just started. smile

I agree with Rui. It's better to do *something* than nothing at all. It seems that "waiting it out" has had no effect.
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Music washes away from the soul
the dust of everyday life.
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#1519808 - 09/21/10 01:35 PM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: CebuKid]
landorrano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 1895
Loc: Andorra
I don't mean to say that Teo should not play.

But if when he plays he has painful sensations than there is surely something wrong with the way that he is playing.

That goes for you too, Cebu, and Rui. If you are experiencing pain than you need to examine your approach.

That is a simple and fundamental truth.

Play with pain ? I think you all don't realize what you are saying. You are confounding playing music with American Gladiator or woth boxing or something.

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#1519843 - 09/21/10 02:15 PM Re: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome/Tendonitis [Re: landorrano]
CebuKid Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1095
Originally Posted By: landorrano
I don't mean to say that Teo should not play.

But if when he plays he has painful sensations than there is surely something wrong with the way that he is playing.

That goes for you too, Cebu, and Rui. If you are experiencing pain than you need to examine your approach.

That is a simple and fundamental truth.

Play with pain ? I think you all don't realize what you are saying. You are confounding playing music with American Gladiator or woth boxing or something.


landorrano, I've seen Teo's playing and in my very amateur opinion, I saw no issues with his technique. Ironically, his technique is a lot better than mine. In year one in my return to piano, i had extreme tension and a very poor wrist position (which i'm still fighting to this day)..and thanks to some in the forum who've corrected me. smile

That said, I'm very thankful to never had experienced pain from piano - despite poor technique. Teo mentioned that his repetitive injury may have come from the computer, and his injury may not be piano-related.
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