First, I just want to thank everyone for their contributions to this great forum over the years. I've dived into the archives and dug up some invaluable information.

Quick background: We currently have a Roland Digital Piano and we're looking to upgrade. Over the course of the summer, my budget has jumped from $4000 before I started doing any research, to $7500 when I realized what $4000 would get me, to maybe stretching to $12,000 and now I'm considering spending $30,000 on this darned thing, maybe putting 20% down and financing the rest.

At first, I was focusing on "value" and "best bang for the buck." There's always a great feeling when scoring a fantastic deal.

Then I thought about how I'm going to feel about the instrument when we're not playing it. Basically, just looking at it or thinking about it, and getting that warm feeling of contentment.

Have any of you out there ever gone for the best value and then regretted later on down the line? Sure, the instrument plays well and does everything you expected to do rationally and objectively. But it's missing a je ne sais quoi, maybe pedigree or brand name that really has NOTHING TO DO with how it performs.

I'm reminded of a Wall Street Journal article a few years back comparing pearl earrings of different makers. They were all identical in terms of size (and all the other variables that determine the standard cost of the earrings). The panel studied the different earring and even got to take them home and wear them for a few days. Would it surprise anyone that the panel overwhelmingly preferred the Tiffany & Co. earrings to those of IDENTICAL SPECS of other lesser known brands? They came to the conclusion that jewelry is a lot about how it makes you feel when one is wearing it and what kind of value can one place on that. Even though the Tiffany earring cost more, they reasoned that it made them feel better, that they were worth it.

Does this factor into piano buying as well? For me, it sure seems like it is point that way.

At first, I wanted a used U1/U3 because many hear say that it sounds a lot better than the smaller grands. But then the thought of shelling out several thousand dollars for an upright piano didn't sit well. I felt an uneasy feeling in the pit of my belly. So I set my sights on 5'5" grands or so. Then I thought those looked like a little kid trying to wear his dad's shirt. Now I'm thinking in the 5'10" range and my budget has exploded.

I'm just wondering how many of you have gone through this same process and how you have resolved it.

I'm ready to get rid of furniture in our 14'x26' family room (including getting rid of the TV) to accommodate the grand versus putting the upright in our 14'x14' living room where the digital piano currently resides.

Surprisingly, my wife did not tell me I was nuts when I revealed my plan, as she often does when I come up with these schemes.

I feel like this whole process has taken a life of its own and it's starting to consume me. I almost feel like I need a wet blanket thrown at me. Or am I not nuts?

Good point.
It makes a difference how you "feel" about your piano.

BUT.....IMO the way we feel about it is so dominated by how it is that I would think the "je ne sais quoi" will count for very little.

Unless the "je ne sais quoi" includes something about how the piano really is -- but from how you're putting it, you don't mean that it does.

If I had a Kawai that played just about as well as a Steinway, I'd feel just as happy about it as if it were a Steinway. In fact, I do have a Kawai like that, and I'm 100% thrilled about it. Maybe it helps that I also have a Steinway.
But I love the Kawai just as much. The fact that I paid thousands less for it than I would have for a Steinway makes me love it all the more.

P.S.:

OK, I'll say it: You're nuts if you spend an extra 20K on a piano for any reason whatsoever except that it really is better.

BTW....when I was a kid and our upright piano got to where it needed to be replaced, I was really wanting a grand. I clamored and clamored for it, and finally my folks said fine. So -- we went to the Sohmer factory to pick one out.....and I found an upright that I loved. It cost less than 1/2 of what a grand would have been. I took the upright.

You're only nuts if you finance something which you don't really have to have.

It's always tone, touch, and appearance - to your ears, your fingers, and your eyes. Just take a few deep breaths and enjoy auditioning pianos. Doing that will help you to get a feel for what you really like and what's available in your market. I hope that you'll be open to considering used pianos.

JoeV,

You bring up some interesting points. When you're getting ready to spend a large amount of money, especially if you have to finance most or all of it, you have to be thrilled with how the piano sounds and feels. It has to be responsive to your touch. When you're not playing it, the memory of how it sounded when you played it will give you contentment. To me, the way a piano looks does have some importance, but how it sounds and feels makes all the difference. We've joked on the Forum before that if someone offered me my dream piano in Liberace metallic red, who cares if it clashes with my furniture? It might hurt to look at it, but I'll just remember how beautifully it played. So, as FogVille Lad mentioned, take a deep breath and enjoy piano shopping for a while. The right piano will speak to you when you finally play it....and you will love it when it comes home.

Good Luck!

JoeV If you are going to finance your piano. Look into a savings secured loan at a Credit Union if you can swing it. A 3 and 1/2 percent loan is good any way you slice it.

How stable is your income and job? Cause if you end up not being able to afford it, doesn't matter how well you like it or how nice it sounds.

You'll end up having to sell it or interest payments will be huge and you'll be taking in debt.

Think of all the Americans who bought houses on sub-prime mortgages which they couldn't afford. They end up getting foreclosed on and out on the street. All cause they bought into the dream of bigger is better.

Take emotion out of the piano price and look at the cold facts. Can your income support payments without compromising your real needs, food, shelter, car, clothes, kids (if you have any).

When push comes to shove, the piano will look mighty expendable.

Sorry to derail the thread, but--

I'd love to know where a 3 1/2% apr loan can be done for a piano. Seriously...that could save me a heck of a lot over the course of 5-10 years, depending on how expensive the next piano is going to be. My credit union had zero understanding or interest in dealing with the piano as a secured debt. I think the Schimmel dealer I worked with had an arrangement with a local bank for something just under 8%, and even that was secured (if I remember correctly).

I think it makes more sense to finance a piano, which will last a lifetime, for example, than a car, which lasts 10 years if you're lucky. And if the country is looking at significant inflation in the near future, which I think it is, financing something at a low interest rate now is not a bad idea.

Assuming the remainder of Joe's finances are in good shape (steady job, health and life insurance taken care of, ditto for retirement savings, kids' (?) college savings, etc.), then I personally don't see any problem in financing a piano.

Welcome to the forum, Joe!

Good stuff. Appreciate the replies. They are very helpful as I try to sort how the mental approach to piano buying. Thanks for the advice on financing too. I'll have to look at that savings secured loan option. In this economy, I don't want to write a check for $30,000. I'd rather finance, pay a small interest rate, and keep money (and peace of mind) in the bank.

I guess what worries me is that there have been a couple of times in my life where in car buying where I folded a paper in half, listed all the pluses and minuses, and then came to my decision. Only to reverse it a couple of years, and many thousands of dollars, later. I don't want to be so reckless with hard earned dollars this time around.

One time, this process led me to buy a used Audi S4 and then drop over $40K in modifications into it (which was cheaper than my alternative choice of buying a Porsche 911). Basically, I customized the car exactly to my liking. It was my fastest track car ever. I thought the joy of lapping people in their Porsche 911s would be enough to keep me satisfied. But then at one point I realized that I'm just driving an S4, and no matter how much I customized it, that it's no 911.

So I sold it... and bought a 911, the car that originally lost the checklist battle. From every performance and comfort metric, that modified Audi ran circles around this 911, but I *love* this 911. It's more than a car to me. I don't know if it's the Porsche heritage or what. But the joy I get just washing the thing is incredible. I don't even need to be driving it. I can just sit in it in the garage, listen to the engine, put my hands on the steering wheel, and say, "Wow. This car is awesome."

And we recently just did the same thing with our family car. Decided that a Scion was "good enough" but after fewer than 2 years of Scion ownership, we got the Lexus that we originally wanted but figured at the time it was more than what we really needed.

But I guess it's different with pianos. We'll spend a lot of time auditioning them and savor the process. I'm sure one will speak to us. Not opposed to going used at all. I have already contacted a local tuner (recommend to us by our piano teacher) who knows we're in the market and is keeping his eyes out for us.

My son is the most proficient pianist in the family, but my wife and I tinker around a bit. This is really more for him, but I'm guessing if we got something nice, then it would motivate me to take it a little more seriously.

Thanks again for the advice. Good stuff. We'll make sure that if we're going to pay more that it's really going to be the better piano, brand be damned.

Sometimes it's good to get a good kick in the pants. No use in reinventing the wheel when people have forged the way ahead of me.

I have a 6'1" but I think a 5'10" would've done just as well. Sure in the showroom the 6'1" sounded better, but at home, it's REALLY loud (although a 5'10" would be barely softer). If you still have your hearing then you might want to stop at 5'10" and search for the right tone for you with the understanding that the piano is likely to sound louder at home.

Other than that, budget creep is common around here so you're going to fit in just fine! What I'm saying is that I don't think anyone can give you buying advice beyond what you are already doing, which is doing research while going with your gut.

"I'm just wondering how many of you have gone through this same process and how you have resolved it."

Well check my story ;-)

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1507292/Re:%20my%20grand%20shopping%20story.html#Post1507292

I have a home equity line of credit that I used to buy my C5. It's a very low interest loan and is a good way to go if you have a lot of equity in your home.

Of course it would be tempting to be more than wise when going this route; however, my wife and I set a budget of $14-16K and found a used C5 for $14K. Sure I would have liked to have a C6, RX6, C7, RX7 but I held tight. The piano has done well for a couple of years now and since I've paid down the loan quite a bit I still may go for the ultimate eventually when I can better afford it.

Many of us have gone your route. A U3 might be nice; maybe a higher quality upright might be better? Well, heck just by the darn grand you have always dreamed about!!!

Many of us have triple our budgets! It is an easy thing to do.

I ended up with a Mason Hamlin AA (6'4"). Not bad for starting out looking at U3's huh? I still think I got a great value.

Might I suggest since you too like 'value', that you look for a piano that is slightly used or a 2 yr old sitting on the floor at a good dealer's place. They sometimes want to change floor models. And sales are ongoing.

Or how about a refurbished grand?

We love to shop for fellow forumites. Tell us where you live, what you have seen/played etc and we can help you spend your money!

Have you read the new edition of the Piano Buyer advertised over there in RED on the left? Good advice in there!

I did what you are considering doing and that is to buy a better upright than the one I was playing at the time.
But after about a year I realized that I should have just held on and bought a grand.
So I ended up selling the recently acquired upright and finally took the plunge and I haven't regretted it since.
I just wish I had done it initially, I would have saved myself thousands with the "depreciation" with the upright that I had to eat.

Of course not. People are brand conscious.

But more succinctly: I wonder how the panel would have fared had the names of the various manufacturers been withheld. In other words: choosing earrings purely on their look, feel and the general experience in itself.

If I can get a similar experience from a cheaper and a more expensive piano, I wouldn't buy the more expensive one.

But hey, I probably wouldn't have sold the S4 either...

In psychological terms, you will be well served by spending more time trying out pianos, and less time researching online. Research tends to exaggerate the differences between brands/types of piano - the major brands spend a lot of time and money developing alluring messages, and those messages work. Also, there is a lot of emotion invested by buyers into justifying their own purchases (roughly proportional to the cost of purchase).

Very good point.

Lesson for all concerned: if you have the space and the budget go grand from the beginning, you won't regret it.

Do you wear labels? Own a designer handbag? If so, and you can't knock this attitude on the head, you're in expensive trouble :-)

Hi Joe:

If you regret buying mediocrity, and from what you say about the Porsche, may I suggest you get a Steinway B and be done with it?

You won't regret that!

Steve

interesting that you are making a substantial investment 'for' your son. Will he keep it?.. will it move with him as he settles into his own life?

if so, I would focus on a quality grand under 5'10.. perhaps a Baldwin R.. Estonia 168, M&H A... something that would not take up too much room in a smaller home.

Has your son shopped with you?

good luck.

You'd be surprised how many people say that's mediocrity!!!

(Not me......I have one.)

"...my budget has jumped from $4000 before I started doing any research, to $7500 when I realized what $4000 would get me, to maybe stretching to $12,000 and now I'm considering spending $30,000 on this darned thing, maybe putting 20% down and financing the rest..."

For a Steinway? Double that budget again, or maybe a bit more. My Kawai cost 30 grand a few years back; I don't think you're going to be able to bring home the bacon (or not much of it) for the budget you've mentioned.

Spending twice as much (or more) is not going to make you play any better. So, that's another perspective on climbing the piano food chain: spend less on a piano that's still got plenty of room for you to grow into, and more on lessons. Trade up when your stomach and your eyes are closer to the same size.

Financing something that costs as much and lasts as long as a piano does make sense, as long as you can actually afford it. However, your thoughts on the cost of money "...I'd rather finance, pay a small interest rate, and keep money... in the bank..." are surprising; the only "small interest rates" are paid on savings accounts.

It's possible you may be able to educate your piano palette by some serious comparison shopping, while you're thinking it over. It's not as simple as that "there's Steinway," and then "there's everything else."

I think considering your situation, a less than 10-year old top-tier grand piano will be best for you. It has the prestige that makes you happy and it is substantially less than a new one from the same make. I get the feeling that you if you get the value brand, you will regret it like the A4 and the Scion.

Good luck! Nothing wrong with wanting a prestige brand as long as you can afford it and it makes you happy.

Sure he could.

You must have gotten a hell of a Kawai!! (Meant seriously.)
I'm still not sure that he is well-advised to take the kind of plunge that almost everyone is agreeing he should, but....you can get terrific Kawai grands of the size he's talking about for well under 30K.

I know -- because I just went Kawai shopping and bought one. (Not of that size, but I noticed their prices.)

This is a funny thread. For me personally (and really, isn't this what this thread is about, there is no "right" answer and the OP really seems to just be looking for reassurances vs any "answers"), I'd get far greater satisfaction running rings around 911's in an S4, the ability to do better with less, for me, would far outweigh the "oh, ah, look at my 911". Of course I love the Audi brand and not nearly as enamoured with Porsche so there is obviously a bias (as was the case of the OP).

To the OP, you seem to be fairly brand conscious. Nothing wrong with that if your budget can support it. If you're going to be second guessing yourself purely on the basis of the name on the side/front of the instrument, you might as well be happy considering the expense. $30k will get you lots of good stuff including some decent used S&S B's so your options are pretty flexible.

The only thing you might want to consider is, could the price differential be "better" spent, specifically taking into account your son's piano playing. In other words, could it pay for a better teacher, a summer at Interlochen or some other camp, perhaps a year studying abroad (and by abroad it could be the Pre-College Division at Julliard for instance), etc. You don't mention what level or age your son is at and what type of career track he's trending towards, but if he's high school age and considering a performance career, then you may want to factor those items in (if you haven't already). If he's 8 and such thoughts are a long way off, and/or you're able to budget those items plus the $30k for a piano and/or he's tracking to be a starting MLB pitcher and only does piano on the side, then obviously this isn't an issue.

You can find some very nice used grands for half of $30K ($15K) that will give you many years of satisfaction. I would really hesitate to finance $30K if I couldn't really afford it.

in pianos, unlike cars, the name on the fallboard is not really very important.

each piano is unique. sure there is a "typical" steinway sound, but the pianos are more like siblings than identical twins. no two are alike.

let your son find the piano that HE has fallen in love with, and to do that, cover up the name on the fallboard.

you sound to me like an optimizer, someone who has to have the best, and i am too, so i can relate. but when it comes to pianos, to be an optimizer means to get the piano with the most beautiful tone and touch, NOT the one with the most prestigious name on the fallboard.

which brand is the piano with the most beautiful tone and touch? none of us can answer that question for you or your son (and it should be your son's taste because he is the one who will be learning on, from, and being inspired by this instrument).

not all steinways are beautiful. any well made brand of piano could be "the one."

he has to play them. play lots of them. ignore the name on the fallboard and instead, let his ears and fingers fall in love.

you don't buy a particular brand of piano because it will get envious reactions from your friends. you buy that particular piano because it moved you.

as for the economics: you could do a lot better, from a money perspective, if you buy a cheap chinese grand and spend all the money you save on the purchase on a top technician to bring out the best in that piano. that's what i'd advise you to do if your son turns out to have very expensive tastes (e.g. the only piano he really, really loves is a bosie imperial!)

personally, i would not take out a loan to buy a piano, but everyone's economic situation is different and i don't have a salaried job. if that is what works best for your finances, go for it.

I know where you're coming from...I want to enjoy every aspect of my instrument. It took trading up a few times to get what I finally wanted. Looks really were just as important as sound and touch for me. Follow you heart but be realistic, as well. Only you know what you can afford. Good Luck and enjoy the journey!

Wow, fantastic responses everyone!!

There's definitely a lot to chew on. Generally speaking, I like to buy it once and buy it right, an approach I've somehow veered from lately which is why I was looking for some guidance here to set me back in the right direction.

A newer used piano is definitely what I'm looking for.

I bought my 911 C4S pre-owned. It had 8,000 miles on it and those 8,000 miles saved me $30,000 from brand new. Lucky for me, the original owner was dissatisfied and upgraded to the Turbo! I like cool stuff, but I don't have to be the first to own it and it doesn't have to be the top of the line. Sure, I'd love a Ferrari but I'm also realistic about what I can and cannot afford.

The piano tuner we plan on working with told us to take our time and do our due diligence. As long as we're not in a rush, he said the right piano will find us.

There's a reason I didn't ask about Piano A vs. Piano B or Brand A vs. Brand B. I see a million of those threads pop up all time. I wanted to drill down to the right way to wrap my head around this whole process first. I think you guys have helped out a lot. Appreciate it!!