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#1510713 - 09/07/10 10:11 AM Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music?
2301 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/21/10
Posts: 14
I'm currently looking into digital pianos, and I've got my eyes on the Yamaha CP5 or the Roland RD-700GX. Now, I was wondering, are these digital pianos good enough for studying relatively advanced classical music? In other words, are they realistic enough to be used for building your technique?

Kind regards,
2301

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#1510716 - 09/07/10 10:14 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5282
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Shouldn't you be the one to determine if the action of a digital keyboard is up to snuff?

If you want piano technique you'll have to practice on a real piano action and preferably a grand piano action. As a primary instrument for serious practicing, I think you already know the answer.
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#1510724 - 09/07/10 10:33 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: Dave Horne]
2301 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/21/10
Posts: 14
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
Shouldn't you be the one to determine if the action of a digital keyboard is up to snuff?


Yes. But the store is very far away, and if the responses here are unanimously negative then I won't have to bother going there.

Originally Posted By: Dave Horne

If you want piano technique you'll have to practice on a real piano action and preferably a grand piano action. As a primary instrument for serious practicing, I think you already know the answer.


Yes, I should have mentioned this, this won't be my primary instrument. I have regular access to a good acoustic piano. I'm interested in a digital piano just for playing in the evening and at night occasionally. So I was wondering if a digital piano would be good enough to at least keep my technique at the same level, or maybe even slightly improve it. Building technique was a bad choice of words.


Edited by 2301 (09/07/10 10:33 AM)

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#1510728 - 09/07/10 10:38 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5282
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Again, you'll have to play the keyboard for yourself. You have to live with the keyboard, it's really your call.

Never buy any keyboard without first playing it ... at length.
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website

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#1510734 - 09/07/10 10:49 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
I'm not familiar with the models you mentioned, but just about any DP with 88 keys and graded hammer action will be good for practice.
_________________________
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#1510738 - 09/07/10 10:56 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
AlphaTerminus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 549
Loc: Iowa, USA
If you are playing for yourself, yes. If you are training to be a concert pianist, NO, unless your are talking AvantGrand which has a full acoustic grand action.

There is a huge difference between GH and a full acoustic grand action if you are totally serious about your pianism.
_________________________
Lessons since September 2009
Yamaha C6

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#1510739 - 09/07/10 10:57 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
ferenc_liszt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/03/09
Posts: 38
Loc: Europe
How long do you play piano? Are you professional, ali you styding piano, or you finished college? If you are advanced pianist and you played long time on real piano than you should not have side effect of digital piano. I tryed a lot of digital pianos and there is very little thats satisfy me. Among them its Roland RD-700GX. I think that this Roland would be ideal replacement for real piano. Did you try him? I tryed it. It has wooden ivory keys, has i lot of option, resonance, denfers,strings, hammers and lot of more to adjust.

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#1510749 - 09/07/10 11:17 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
Vectistim Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 317
Loc: Reading, UK
What does 'relatively advanced' mean?

I know conservatoire students who have a digital for backup/late night practice, and that's fine when they have ready access to a selection of real pianos too.

I think they tend to use the digital for early stages of learning new repertoire, for sight reading etc, but when it comes to refining the subtle nuances of a piece that work seems to need to be done on an acoustic.

(Personally I find even the Casio Privias good enough for me, but then singing and organ probably come higher for me than pure piano)

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#1510758 - 09/07/10 11:27 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: 2301
I'm currently looking into digital pianos, and I've got my eyes on the Yamaha CP5 or the Roland RD-700GX. Now, I was wondering, are these digital pianos good enough for studying relatively advanced classical music? In other words, are they realistic enough to be used for building your technique?

Kind regards,
2301


Are you training for a concert performance? If so then you need at least some of your practice time on the instrument you will perform on.

Are they "real" That depends on if the performance instrument is a digital piano. If it is then yes they are 100% realistic. For recordings the digital piano might even work beter unless you are working in a large recording studio with an engineer.

Next question is "Which digital" the Roland is a good choice if you like that style of key action. It is good but some will prefer the Kawai or Yamaha. Each is different, none is best.

The CP5 is an interesting choice because it is lighter than other high end Yamahas and the weights are not graded like on an acoustic piano. I think it is optimized for playability of electric piano sounds. But some people like it for acoustic piano sounds. For most CP5 owners I'd guess the CP5 is their performance instrument so the question of "realism" is not relevant. I'd say this about the RD700 too. Most stage pianos are likely used as stage pianos.

Have you tried Yamaha GH based pianos? That would be the CP50, P155 and CP33. Those have a more traditional piano action than the CP5. They cost less too.

For an advanced player, I think the digital piano is better for practice than an older upright acoustic piano with the felt curtain muffler thing engaged. Both the action and sound is better but if the goal is a concert performance on a grand piano then I don't see how you can not need to spend some of your practice time on the grand. But if this is a hobby, then the digital can be the performance instrument and realism is 100%

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#1510786 - 09/07/10 12:24 PM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3101
Loc: Oregon
For classical piano, key repetition rates/behavior are very important. It's only recently that digital pianos have begun to address this seriously. I would suggest looking for a three-sensor action. Inexpensive Casio Privias in the x30 series have this, as does the forthcoming Roland RD-700NX (I believe). As for other models, you'll need to investigate, and has been stated before, try them out. Some actions have a lot of bounce, some are stiff, and others rather light. Since you'll be working on advanced classical pieces, I would echo Dave Horne's advice - even if the store is 200 miles away.
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#1510883 - 09/07/10 03:41 PM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
FogVilleLad Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 4680
Loc: San Francisco
If your playing includes using all three pedals, then stage pianos are not the best choice. It would be better to buy a home - a.k.a. console - piano. The CP's ungraded action is not a good choice for maintaining piano technique.

If your playing includes fast repetition of the same note, you'd benefit from a three-sensor action. In the Yamaha line, that's called "GH3".

Yamaha's site says that their new home-style Arius YDP-181 has an additional sensor which aids fast repetition. The site doesn't actually say "GH3", but if this action has a third sensor, that's what it is. The 181 also has "half pedalling" capability for the sustain pedal. Worth checking out. Guitar Center has it listed for $1599 plus bench, but you should be able to get them to throw in the bench. Others here can probably give info about equivalent models from Kawai and Roland.

BTW if you're open to buying used, you could check Craigslist and local dealers for CLP-170's or CLP-240's.

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#1510896 - 09/07/10 04:00 PM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: FogVilleLad]
7even Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/09
Posts: 151
Originally Posted By: FogVilleLad
If your playing includes using all three pedals, then stage pianos are not the best choice. It would be better to buy a home - a.k.a. console - piano. The CP's ungraded action is not a good choice for maintaining piano technique.


If you're leaning towards a stage piano (particularly a Roland), this could cover your 3-pedal needs:
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=1132&ParentId=39
cool
_________________________
Now: RD-700NX
Someday: Steinway concert grand :|

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#1510936 - 09/07/10 05:18 PM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9679
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
As ChrisA notes, the CP5 does not feature a grade-weighted action.
If this is important you should consider the CP50 as an alternative.

Cheers,
James
x
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Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1510976 - 09/07/10 06:01 PM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
kippesc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 407
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: 2301
Now, I was wondering, are these digital pianos good enough for studying relatively advanced classical music? In other words, are they realistic enough to be used for building your technique?

Kind regards,
2301


I realize you're asking about classical music specifically, but the following article about how the jazz pianist Hank Jones kept his technique up is fascinating, nevertheless. The second link is provided for the sake of completeness concerning this NYTimes story that generated some controversy.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C06E3D8163EF93AA25756C0A9669D8B63&emc=eta1

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/30/opinion/30pubed.html
_________________________
Steinway B
Yamaha AvantGrand N2
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#1510994 - 09/07/10 06:19 PM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: kippesc]
kippesc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 407
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: kippesc
Originally Posted By: 2301
Now, I was wondering, are these digital pianos good enough for studying relatively advanced classical music? In other words, are they realistic enough to be used for building your technique?

Kind regards,
2301


I realize you're asking about classical music specifically, but the following article about how the jazz pianist Hank Jones kept his technique up is fascinating, nevertheless. The second link is provided for the sake of completeness concerning this NYTimes story that generated some controversy.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C06E3D8163EF93AA25756C0A9669D8B63&emc=eta1

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/30/opinion/30pubed.html


For some reason, the Times article no longer includes a picture of Jones's Yamaha digital piano. It was a stage piano -- not high end at all. And he apparently practiced on it for hours on end. I thought it was interesting how much solid work can be done by a great pianist on a very modest instrument.
_________________________
Steinway B
Yamaha AvantGrand N2
Roland RD-700NX

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#1511000 - 09/07/10 06:32 PM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
ferenc_liszt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/03/09
Posts: 38
Loc: Europe
Its not that complicated. Digital piano are not for replacement for real piano. He is just for reading and short practice. After his pianist must go on a real piano and he will play on real piano eventually. I think that Roland is better solution than yamaha. But dont beleve me try it your self. Roland is more advanced then yamaha.

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#1511110 - 09/07/10 08:44 PM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: ferenc_liszt]
LesCharles73 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 739
Loc: Denton Texas
Originally Posted By: ferenc_liszt
Roland is more advanced then yamaha.


I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing with you, but I will say that your blanket-statement is extremely debatable.
_________________________
Les C Deal





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#1511145 - 09/07/10 09:46 PM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music [Re: 2301]
Jonathan Baker Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/09/09
Posts: 475
Loc: New York City!
To state the obvious, there are only two reason to play a digital piano: because one does not currently have cash-in-pocket to buy a real piano, or because one's apartment has thin walls. And this is often the lot of many very, very good pianist-musicians.

I teach on my Steinway grand during the day, but often practice on a digital at night because I do not want to disturb my neighbors in their apartment upstairs when they come home in the evening. That is a real issue here in NYC for many apartment dwellers - especially if one lives in a charming old brownstone, as I do - sound carries rather easily through those 19th century walls.

The problem I have encountered with my digital is that I have to 'overplay', using an almost exaggerated finger articulation because any given note does not sound until the electronic contact is made when the key is depressed all the way down to the keyframe. This is not the case with my Steinway where the hammer has struck and retracted to fall back position a micro-second before the key is stopped by the keyframe over the keybed.

If the digital keyboard manufacturers could make their keyboard action comparable in this regard they would be taking a big, big step forward.

I have practiced all manner of etudes and sonatas on the digital, and have built up more technique while practicing on the digital, but it is the 'wrong' kind of technique: a strenuous, overly-articulated technique that is not useful or needed on my Steinway which requires half as much effort in every regard. But then, the Steinway sings where the digital merely barks...

I recognize this 'overplaying' in other pianists right away and always ask if they practice on a digital piano. Invariably they do.







Edited by Jonathan Baker (09/07/10 09:49 PM)
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http://www.BakerPianoLessons.com/index.htm

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#1511184 - 09/07/10 11:06 PM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music [Re: Jonathan Baker]
LesCharles73 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 739
Loc: Denton Texas
Originally Posted By: Jonathan Baker
To state the obvious, there are only two reason to play a digital piano: because one does not currently have cash-in-pocket to buy a real piano, or because one's apartment has thin walls.


False. While these are two very good reasons, I can think of many circumstances in which one might choose a digital piano over an acoustic.

-Portability/gigging
-Ease (or lack of) maintenance
-Recording
-Using alternative sounds/patches
-The particular reasons are different for everybody.
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#1511243 - 09/08/10 02:56 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
2301 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/21/10
Posts: 14
Thank you for all your responses. Since I have access to an acoustic piano during the day I can conclude from your responses that a digital piano could be useful as a secondary instrument for practising in the morning/evening/night.

I was not aware that the CP-5 was non-graded. I will look at the CP50 instead. I will also have to get myself one of those Roland 3-pedal boards.

Just one small question: If I were to get a piano from the RD-700 series, is the 3-sensor technology in the RD-700NX really worth paying 300 more dollars for? The NX does not seem to have any other improvements, except for a high resolution screen, which I won't be using anyway.

BTW: The article about the jazz musician was very interesting.


Edited by 2301 (09/08/10 02:57 AM)

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#1511250 - 09/08/10 03:29 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
Rui725 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
''It's been a real New York experience, living next to him,'' she added. ''You never know who your neighbors are in this city.''

so New York. Great article

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#1511253 - 09/08/10 03:47 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
7even Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/09
Posts: 151
Originally Posted By: 2301
Thank you for all your responses. Since I have access to an acoustic piano during the day I can conclude from your responses that a digital piano could be useful as a secondary instrument for practising in the morning/evening/night.

I was not aware that the CP-5 was non-graded. I will look at the CP50 instead. I will also have to get myself one of those Roland 3-pedal boards.

Just one small question: If I were to get a piano from the RD-700 series, is the 3-sensor technology in the RD-700NX really worth paying 300 more dollars for? The NX does not seem to have any other improvements, except for a high resolution screen, which I won't be using anyway.

BTW: The article about the jazz musician was very interesting.


If you want the best sound (e.g. SuperNatural add-on), you'll probably end up paying about the same for the GX as the NX (unless there's some deal on the GXF that I'm not aware of); in that case, I'd vote NX cool
_________________________
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Someday: Steinway concert grand :|

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#1511254 - 09/08/10 03:50 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 7even]
2301 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/21/10
Posts: 14
The GX I'm looking at has SuperNatural built in. At least that's what's in the product description at the website.

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#1511255 - 09/08/10 03:57 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
7even Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/09
Posts: 151
Originally Posted By: 2301
The GX I'm looking at has SuperNatural built in. At least that's what's in the product description at the website.


Make sure it's the SuperNatural Piano Kit, not just EPs. All GXs have SuperNatural EPs built in, but the expansion board for the acoustic pianos is new.
_________________________
Now: RD-700NX
Someday: Steinway concert grand :|

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#1511257 - 09/08/10 04:00 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5282
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Quote:
I was not aware that the CP-5 was non-graded.


You won't miss a graded action in a digital keyboard because the action is lighter to begin with when compared to an acoustic piano action. A graded action just makes some of the keys in a digital keyboard even lighter.
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#1511258 - 09/08/10 04:05 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: Dave Horne]
7even Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/09
Posts: 151
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
Quote:
I was not aware that the CP-5 was non-graded.


You won't miss a graded action in a digital keyboard because the action is lighter to begin with when compared to an acoustic piano action. A graded action just makes some of the keys in a digital keyboard even lighter.



Depending what acoustic you compare to. I've tried some ridiculously light acoustics.. awful.
_________________________
Now: RD-700NX
Someday: Steinway concert grand :|

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#1511259 - 09/08/10 04:09 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5282
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
I've never played a heavy digital keyboard action.

I've played bouncy, sloppy, spongy digital keyboard actions but never a heavy digital keyboard action.
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#1511278 - 09/08/10 05:39 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 7even]
2301 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/21/10
Posts: 14
Originally Posted By: 7even
Originally Posted By: 2301
The GX I'm looking at has SuperNatural built in. At least that's what's in the product description at the website.


Make sure it's the SuperNatural Piano Kit, not just EPs. All GXs have SuperNatural EPs built in, but the expansion board for the acoustic pianos is new.


The description says it has "SuperNatural instruments". So I assume that's not one with the acoustic pianos. And they don't seem to sell a RD-700GXF or an expansion card in any store nearby. Great.

Do you happen to know how the SuperNatural acoustic pianos compare to computer software pianos like PianoTeq or Steinberg Grand 2?


Edited by 2301 (09/08/10 05:41 AM)

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#1511280 - 09/08/10 05:51 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
7even Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/09
Posts: 151
Originally Posted By: 2301
Originally Posted By: 7even
Originally Posted By: 2301
The GX I'm looking at has SuperNatural built in. At least that's what's in the product description at the website.


Make sure it's the SuperNatural Piano Kit, not just EPs. All GXs have SuperNatural EPs built in, but the expansion board for the acoustic pianos is new.


The description says it has "SuperNatural instruments". So I assume that's not one with the acoustic pianos. And they don't seem to sell a RD-700GXF or an expansion card in any store nearby. Great.

Do you happen to know how the SuperNatural acoustic pianos compare to computer software pianos like PianoTeq or Steinberg Grand 2?


I've tried PianoTeq a while back, I think it was version 2.something, and it was quite good. I'm sure it has only gotten better since then. I'm not sure how I would compare it to the GXF though... Sorry frown I'd probably spend a little extra and get the NX. The GXF sounds really good, and the NX would be completely worth it.

Disclaimer: I'm waiting for the NX myself. Slightly biased..
_________________________
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#1511284 - 09/08/10 06:09 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4363
Loc: Northern NJ
You might also consider the Roland FP-7F. PHAIII keys, SN pianos, built-in speakers and music rest, a bit shorter so easier to transport, but about the same weight as the NX. Just released with the NX so not in stores yet. $1900 USD pre-order.

There are other Roland models that have PHAIII keys and SN pianos, look here and see if any of these that mention SN are sold in your local area:

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productlist.php?ParentId=40
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productlist.php?ParentId=21

That way you can demo the keys and sounds and have a good idea of what the NX or FP will feel and sound like. Take along a good pair of headphones.

You might also run across an FP-7 (non-F) and if you do check out the built-in speakers - I assume the speakers in the FP-7F will be the same.

The three pedal unit that 7even provided a link to above will work with the FP-7F, RD-700NX, and RD-700GXF.
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