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#1510740 - 09/07/10 10:57 AM Adding weight to the action
Pinkerton Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/18/10
Posts: 11
Loc: UK
What steps can be taken to add weight to a piano's touch ?

Would these adjustments alter the ease with which you can achieve different dynamics ?

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#1510806 - 09/07/10 01:04 PM Re: Adding weight to the action [Re: Pinkerton]
Gene Nelson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1217
Loc: Old Hangtown California
Adding weight to the touch = (disregarding friction) Increase hammer mass, remove key lead or decrease action leverage.
And then there are a few things that give the perception of heavier touch.
Whenever any of these perameters is excessive, achieving the broadest range of playing dynamics will be affected.
_________________________
RPT
PTG Member

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#1510810 - 09/07/10 01:10 PM Re: Adding weight to the action [Re: Pinkerton]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 16559
Loc: Oakland
Before you do anything, get the piano regulated.
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Semipro Tech

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#1510812 - 09/07/10 01:16 PM Re: Adding weight to the action [Re: Pinkerton]
UnrightTooner Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 3936
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Voicing also affects dynamics. When you hit a key harder, you want the notes to be brighter, not just louder.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1510835 - 09/07/10 02:09 PM Re: Adding weight to the action [Re: Pinkerton]
Steve Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 558
Loc: Toronto

I'm with BDB.

A regulation may be all you need, as changing the touch of a piano can be a can of worms you may not want to get into.

Steve
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Vintage Piano sales and restoration in Toronto
Exclusive Live Performance Player Systems Dealer

http://stevejacksonpianos.com

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#1510838 - 09/07/10 02:15 PM Re: Adding weight to the action [Re: Gene Nelson]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2089
Loc: Lowell MA
Originally Posted By: Gene Nelson
Adding weight to the touch = (disregarding friction) Increase hammer mass, remove key lead or decrease action leverage. And then there are a few things that give the perception of heavier touch.
Whenever any of these perameters is excessive, achieving the broadest range of playing dynamics will be affected.


Increase leverage ratio... will raise touch weight. Probably should clarify.

What piano model are we discussing?

_________________________
""if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" Abraham Maslow"

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
www.finepianodevelopment.com

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#1510839 - 09/07/10 02:19 PM Re: Adding weight to the action [Re: Larry Buck]
UnrightTooner Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 3936
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
Originally Posted By: Gene Nelson
Adding weight to the touch = (disregarding friction) Increase hammer mass, remove key lead or decrease action leverage. And then there are a few things that give the perception of heavier touch.
Whenever any of these perameters is excessive, achieving the broadest range of playing dynamics will be affected.


Increase leverage ... will raise touch weight.

What piano model are we discussing?



Huh? If I increase the leverage on anything else in the world, I can move it easier. Why would a piano's action be different?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1510847 - 09/07/10 02:38 PM Re: Adding weight to the action [Re: Pinkerton]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2089
Loc: Lowell MA
For clarifying I say "increase the action ratio"

For example; increase the action ratio from 5:1 to 5.5:1
_________________________
""if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" Abraham Maslow"

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
www.finepianodevelopment.com

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#1511045 - 09/07/10 07:32 PM Re: Adding weight to the action [Re: Pinkerton]
Gene Nelson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1217
Loc: Old Hangtown California
On my example a hypothetical key: the balance rail pin is 20cm from the front rail pin and 10cm from the key capstan giving a key ratio of 2:1.
If I move the key capstan toward the hammer by 1cm changing its distance from the balance rail pin to 11cm the key ratio becomes 1.8:1 and the result is heavier touch and more required key dip with leverage decreased.
Am I mis-stating something?
_________________________
RPT
PTG Member

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#1511075 - 09/07/10 08:07 PM Re: Adding weight to the action [Re: Gene Nelson]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2089
Loc: Lowell MA
Originally Posted By: Gene Nelson
On my example a hypothetical key: the balance rail pin is 20cm from the front rail pin and 10cm from the key capstan giving a key ratio of 2:1.
If I move the key capstan toward the hammer by 1cm changing its distance from the balance rail pin to 11cm the key ratio becomes 1.8:1 and the result is heavier touch and more required key dip with leverage decreased.
Am I mis-stating something?


Yes and No

Yes, more touch weight

No, with the new key ratio, you will need less key dip as compared to the old key ratio.

Yes and No, leverage decreased ... semantics
Leverage advantage decreased, overall action ratio increased.

In your new key ratio, the hammer will travel further for the same key movement where the old key ratio will travel the hammer less distance.
_________________________
""if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" Abraham Maslow"

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
www.finepianodevelopment.com

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#1511134 - 09/07/10 09:30 PM Re: Adding weight to the action [Re: Pinkerton]
Gene Nelson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1217
Loc: Old Hangtown California
I was trying to stay away from ratios and I did get the key dip backward.
_________________________
RPT
PTG Member

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#1511931 - 09/09/10 01:19 AM Re: Adding weight to the action [Re: Pinkerton]
KawaiDon Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/02
Posts: 1146
Loc: Orange County, CA
As others have said, the action needs to be evaluated to see if it is worn, if the parts have become loose, and if the regulation is incorrect. You didn't mention if you have an upright or grand - that is a rather important detail!

For grand pianos there is a trick I have used that works very well. You should ask your piano tuner to give it a try for you.

There are small metal paper binder clips that can be put on the hammer shanks close to the hammers. After they are in position, the flip up silver handles are removed, leaving only the black clip in place. Here is a picture:

http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/560394/Small-Binder-Clips-34-Wide-38/

Very inexpensive, and easily removed. They affect the tone, making it a little more thumpy and dull. If you like the affect they give, then the technician can apply some glue to each one to lock them in place.

Don Mannino RPT


Edited by KawaiDon (09/09/10 01:20 AM)

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#1520470 - 09/22/10 11:46 AM Re: Adding weight to the action [Re: Pinkerton]
Pinkerton Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/18/10
Posts: 11
Loc: UK
Thanks for the input. You were spot on about the regulation. The tuner removed some lost motion and now the (upright) action feels great. Whilst not necessarily heavier I am now quite satisfied with the more solid feel that has resulted.

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