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Topic Options
#1511287 - 09/08/10 06:25 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: Dave Horne]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
You won't miss a graded action in a digital keyboard because the action is lighter to begin with when compared to an acoustic piano action. A graded action just makes some of the keys in a digital keyboard even lighter.

The weight of our Yamaha P-120 keys was roughly the same as our Young-Chang grand piano around the middle of the keyboard, but the Young-Chang is heavier at the bottom end and lighter at the top end in comparison. IOW, the P-120 wasn't nearly as "graded" as the real thing. Grading on a real piano I can always feel, DP grading is almost always more subtle IMO.
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THE RD-700NX Thread!
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#1511294 - 09/08/10 06:58 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: dewster]
2301 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/21/10
Posts: 14
Originally Posted By: dewster
You might also consider the Roland FP-7F. PHAIII keys, SN pianos, built-in speakers and music rest, a bit shorter so easier to transport, but about the same weight as the NX. Just released with the NX so not in stores yet. $1900 USD pre-order.

There are other Roland models that have PHAIII keys and SN pianos, look here and see if any of these that mention SN are sold in your local area:

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productlist.php?ParentId=40
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productlist.php?ParentId=21

That way you can demo the keys and sounds and have a good idea of what the NX or FP will feel and sound like. Take along a good pair of headphones.

You might also run across an FP-7 (non-F) and if you do check out the built-in speakers - I assume the speakers in the FP-7F will be the same.

The three pedal unit that 7even provided a link to above will work with the FP-7F, RD-700NX, and RD-700GXF.


They don't sell any models with PHAIII keys in my area. I have sent emails to the local stores informing if they'll sell the RD-700NX or FP-7F when they become available.

The FP-7F looks very interesting. So, basically, the FP-7F has the same keybed/action/keys etc. as the RD-700NX? And the main difference between the FP and the RD series is that an RD is more like a synthesizer and the FP is more basic like a piano, am I right? I think the FP-7F may be a better choice for me, since I don't need all the extra features on the RD-700NX.

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#1511298 - 09/08/10 07:10 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
Art A. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/08/10
Posts: 145
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
I have a Roland 307 with the PHAIII keyboard. Except for the Avant grand and the Kawai CA93 this is the best digital piano I have come across for sound and action overall, in my humble opinion. That being said I don't have an acoustic and I am very interested in classical music. My conclusion is digital piano + classical music = okay UNLESS you are an observant person and start to notice the little things then it becomes very unsatisfactory. But my main complaint is sound. The key action is very good and actually better than the majority of upright acoustics I looked at in my budget.

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#1511400 - 09/08/10 10:28 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
keynote26 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/23/10
Posts: 33
Why not look at the Kawai CA93?

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#1511405 - 09/08/10 10:31 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: keynote26]
2301 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/21/10
Posts: 14
Originally Posted By: keynote26
Why not look at the Kawai CA93?


None of the shops in my area sell Kawai instruments. So I wouldn't be able to play it before I buy it.

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#1511522 - 09/08/10 01:36 PM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: ferenc_liszt]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: ferenc_liszt
... I think that Roland is better solution than yamaha. But dont beleve me try it your self. Roland is more advanced then yamaha.


I think it is OK to say "I like Roland's PHA-III key action beter then Yamaha's GH action". But each company makes a wide range of digital pianos. Each company makes pianos I'd never recommend for advanced classical work. For example the Roland FP-4 (Alpha key action) is not up to the task at all.

That said. I think many people might like the keys on the Roland RD700. But some people think they are way to light. At this level it is all a matter of opinion.

My opinion: I still like the Yamaha P155. But if I wanted ligher action I'd look at a new Kawai or wait foe the new version of the FP7. But if you happen to like Yamahas more first keys then you are lucky because the P155 costs less and is available today from about 10 zillion retail outlets.

One thing I've notice is that a good pianist can make good music even on an old clunker upright. The experienced player learns to adapt. It is beginners like me that need a perfect action. Just last night I was at a Kawai digital and moved to play at a Kawi grand that was in the same room. Moving back and forth I found the grand, even if it was slightly out of tune to have vastly better tone but the Kawai "CN" digital was easier to play by quite a bit. The reason is that the digital keys are made of precision parts at the factory and don't need to be so complex as there are no strings.

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#1511532 - 09/08/10 01:59 PM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: ChrisA]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: ChrisA
Just last night I was at a Kawai digital and moved to play at a Kawi grand that was in the same room. Moving back and forth I found the grand, even if it was slightly out of tune to have vastly better tone but the Kawai "CN" digital was easier to play by quite a bit. The reason is that the digital keys are made of precision parts at the factory and don't need to be so complex as there are no strings.


Actually, I would say the reason is that there is a helluva lot more to playing the acoustic piano well than playing a digital piano and that if you are learning and playing almost exclusively on a digital then it will be hard to play or play well on an acoustic. You can play a digital piano with your fingers but an acoustic piano you have to play with your ears.

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#1511664 - 09/08/10 06:20 PM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: 2301
The FP-7F looks very interesting.

I find it very interesting as well.

Originally Posted By: 2301
So, basically, the FP-7F has the same keybed/action/keys etc. as the RD-700NX?

Except for the fake wood on the sides of the NX keys, I believe most here think that is the case.

Originally Posted By: 2301
And the main difference between the FP and the RD series is that an RD is more like a synthesizer and the FP is more basic like a piano, am I right? I think the FP-7F may be a better choice for me, since I don't need all the extra features on the RD-700NX.

The main difference sound-wise is the SN EPs in the NX that are missing in the FP. Both have SN APs and the tonewheel organ (?) and a bunch of other sounds. So the NX is more of a full-featured stage piano, the FP more of a digital piano. I really want the internal speakers and music rest on the FP, but the NX has a much nicer user interface. I'm really torn here.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1511742 - 09/08/10 08:20 PM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: dewster]
McDonuts Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 8
Originally Posted By: dewster
I really want the internal speakers and music rest on the FP, but the NX has a much nicer user interface. I'm really torn here.


dewster, with how particular your tastes are with respect to the sound of a digital piano (e.g. the DPBSD), why are you so interested in internal speakers? I'm just curious -- I've personally never played a single stage piano with even mildly acceptable internal speakers. Do you play with headphones most of the time and the speakers are just a nice-to-have or something like that?

I play on an RD700GX, and if I were forced to part with either my SuperNatural expansion board or my Mackie HR Monitors, I bet I'd give up the former first...

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#1511975 - 09/09/10 03:24 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
Edtek Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 246
Loc: El Paso
About action weights:

I got the chance to play a Steinway grand today (in the performance room of the local branch library, I'm guessing it's about 6 and half feet). The action was much lighter than my Celviano AP65 I use with my mac and VI pianos. It was about the same as my PSR-S910 arranger kb.

At practice this evening I mentioned this to my jazz duo partner (him on sax, me on arranger kb). He has a grand and an upright. He played my Celvi and PSR and said both were lighter than his grand but heavier than his upright.

So my ranking by weight (light to heavy):
SS grand and PSR
Celvi

His ranking:
His upright
my PSR
my Celvi
his grand

Kinda shows you might be surprised when you sit down at any kb.

Incidentally, all the acoustics and my Celvi are much easier to control dynamically than the PSR.
_________________________
Ed (Out in the West Texas town of El Paso)
Yamaha T118, Yamaha PSR-S710

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#1511993 - 09/09/10 04:33 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Quote:
One thing I've notice is that a good pianist can make good music even on an old clunker upright. The experienced player learns to adapt.


You use the word adapt while I would say that the experienced player has more control. I feel it really helps one's playing to play on pianos that are not forgiving. If you drive a Mack truck every day, you'll appreciate the handling of a sports car.
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1512504 - 09/09/10 08:17 PM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: McDonuts]
Nikalette Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/08
Posts: 1081
Loc: California
Well, today i had the chance to play a Kawai Grand (at our church, which we were helping to clean, heh-heh...). I've been practicing on a Casio WK-200, which is NOT a good digital keyboard. Just recently started working on my classical pieces again.

It was EASIER to play on the Kawai than on my toy keyboard, I made fewer mistakes, and it didn't really mess me up at all, practicing on the Casio.

Admittedly, I noticed that I'm not playing with weight and it was more work for sure, but oh, what a pleasure! How beautiful the sound and feel of a quality grand is!

I was a bit taken aback by the volume, but it wasn't so bad, because we were in a very large room with not very good acoustics.

All in all, a yummy treat, and it made me feel better about my having to practice on my Casio.

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#1512522 - 09/09/10 09:06 PM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: McDonuts]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: McDonuts
dewster, with how particular your tastes are with respect to the sound of a digital piano (e.g. the DPBSD), why are you so interested in internal speakers?

They're handy. And if they don't cost too much, add too much weight, take up too much room in the DP enclosure, sound too horrible, etc. then I'll gladly take them. One situation where good enough is the enemy of the perfect.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1512530 - 09/09/10 09:38 PM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: 2301]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2207
Loc: Sydney, Australia
I want the speakers too. I'm wondering whether there might be a small market for a keyboard-less tone generator/amp/speakers, that could be used with a speakerless digital piano or MIDI controller on the odd occasion. Something like that Sonic Cell with small speakers.

Greg.

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#1512572 - 09/09/10 11:16 PM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music [Re: LesCharles73]
Jonathan Baker Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 06/09/09
Posts: 323
Loc: New York City!
Yes, you are correct - it was an oversight for me to
neglect to mention the needs of jazz/pop keyboardists. I was referring only to the needs of classically oriented pianists.
_________________________
Jonathan Baker
http://www.BakerPianoLessons.com/index.htm

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#1513245 - 09/11/10 06:18 AM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music? [Re: FogVilleLad]
RDW Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 101
Originally Posted By: FogVilleLad
Yamaha's site says that their new home-style Arius YDP-181 has an additional sensor which aids fast repetition. The site doesn't actually say "GH3", but if this action has a third sensor, that's what it is.


That's interesting! I wonder if the site is accurate? The way it's worded would suggest to me that the extra key sensor is supposed to be a feature of GH (or GHE) in general, which we know isn't the case. Unless of course Yamaha are now introducing this across the board, effectively making everything above GHS a GH3 action?

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail.html?CNTID=5012844

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/Cont...amp;CTID=205700

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#1513416 - 09/11/10 03:42 PM Re: Are these digital pianos good enough for classical music [Re: Jonathan Baker]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2355
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Jonathan Baker

The problem I have encountered with my digital is that I have to 'overplay', using an almost exaggerated finger articulation because any given note does not sound until the electronic contact is made when the key is depressed all the way down to the keyframe. This is not the case with my Steinway where the hammer has struck and retracted to fall back position a micro-second before the key is stopped by the keyframe over the keybed.

If the digital keyboard manufacturers could make their keyboard action comparable in this regard they would be taking a big, big step forward.



Jonathan, I wonder what DP you have? The reason for asking is that on my DP the note sounds before the key is fully depressed, and also it can be repeated without being fully released. Some DP's will even allow the note to be replayed before the previous note is silenced.

Even so, I suspect that you're right and that I, as a beginner, am 'overplaying' as I find it very difficult to play a range of dynamics other than quite loud. Maybe all beginners suffer that, but it could be a DP doesn't help in this aspect of learning?

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