Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#1515886 - 09/15/10 03:20 PM How is this played?
LindaR Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/08
Posts: 160
Loc: Northern California
I am unsure. Say you are in common time. You have a half note tied to a quarter note with a dot aove it, followed by another quarter note with a dot above it. How is that measure articulated?
Or another example would be four four time and you have half noted thirds tied to a quarter noted third with a dot above and then a lone quarter note third. How is that played?

Thanks for your help.

Top
(ads P/S)

Sauter Pianos

#1515907 - 09/15/10 03:51 PM Re: How is this played? [Re: LindaR]
packa Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1397
Loc: Dallas, TX
Sometimes it's easier to talk about these questions if you post an example, however, I'll give it a try. Let us know if this isn't really what you're asking, but I'm detecting two different issues here. The rhythm is straightforward: the half note tied to a quarter note is held for three beats and the remaining quarter note makes up the fourth beat of the measure.

The dots above the notes have nothing to do with this basic counting (if the dots appeared to the side of the notes you would have a different issue). Above the notes, the dots mean staccato or detached. With a dot over the two quarter notes, it suggests releasing the tied quarter note just a bit before the fourth beat starts to create a slight space or detachment between the third and fourth beat. Likewise, the last quarter note is released just a little early to create a space before the next measure.
_________________________
Paul Buchanan
Estonia L168 #1718

Top
#1515914 - 09/15/10 04:06 PM Re: How is this played? [Re: LindaR]
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
If a note is tied to another note, without a staccato dot above it, then you just hold the second note for its time value, this is a regular tie. However, if a note is tied to another note that is staccato, then this is a slur, and the second note is played staccato.

Top
#1515947 - 09/15/10 04:50 PM Re: How is this played? [Re: LindaR]
LindaR Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/08
Posts: 160
Loc: Northern California
Confused.

Top
#1515954 - 09/15/10 04:55 PM Re: How is this played? [Re: LindaR]
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
You can't have a staccato note as the second note in a tie.

Top
#1515960 - 09/15/10 05:06 PM Re: How is this played? [Re: Gyro]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
Originally Posted By: Gyro
You can't have a staccato note as the second note in a tie.
Sure you can. It happens fairly frequently.

Staccato means the note ends early. It doesn't have to affect the beginning of the note, though sometimes it does. You have to figure out what the composer meant.

(This is not a good marking because it's confusing to read - but it is certainly written often enough.)


Edited by david_a (09/15/10 05:08 PM)
_________________________
(I'm a piano teacher.)

Top
#1516014 - 09/15/10 06:01 PM Re: How is this played? [Re: Gyro]
packa Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1397
Loc: Dallas, TX
Originally Posted By: Gyro
You can't have a staccato note as the second note in a tie.

As david_a notes, this is flatly incorrect. I am not at home right now, but if it helps I can post a couple of examples from Gardner Read's Music Notation: A Manual of Modern Practice (2nd ed.) later.

There is (or at least there is supposed to be) a slight difference in the placement of the tie mark and a slur: "Though the tie-mark and the slur appear identical, the tie almost touches the note-head center, while the slur of necessity is set somewhat above or below the note-head" (Read, p. 110). This distinction is subtle and you cannot always depend on a particular publisher following all the rules, so caution is advised in this area. But tied notes with different articulation marks are very common and, in my opinion, not always particularly confusing.
_________________________
Paul Buchanan
Estonia L168 #1718

Top
#1516241 - 09/15/10 11:25 PM Re: How is this played? [Re: LindaR]
LindaR Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/08
Posts: 160
Loc: Northern California
Its like the palmetto pimento passages. That is not a staccato but like a dot glissando.

Okay I meant portamento passages maybe.


Edited by LindaR (09/15/10 11:36 PM)
Edit Reason: looked it up

Top
#1516263 - 09/16/10 12:13 AM Re: How is this played? [Re: LindaR]
packa Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1397
Loc: Dallas, TX
Originally Posted By: LindaR
Its like the palmetto pimento passages. That is not a staccato but like a dot glissando.

Okay I meant portamento passages maybe.

I assumed that you originally meant that the half and quarter notes in your first example were at the same pitch (because you used the word "tied"). Talking about glissandos makes me wonder if I jumped to a wrong assumption about this. Is it possible to post a scan of the measures in question?

Portamento notation using a little "o" (not a solid dot) over a note is usually seen in string notation, where it indicates a glissando or portamento to a harmonic. I don't know what it might mean in a piano context.

(I just hate being stumped on notation questions!)
_________________________
Paul Buchanan
Estonia L168 #1718

Top
#1516270 - 09/16/10 12:34 AM Re: How is this played? [Re: packa]
LindaR Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/08
Posts: 160
Loc: Northern California
An example in the right edition would be in Sonatina op 55 no 3, Kuhlau and about the 32nd and 33rd measure. Oh did I say the half note and the quarter note are the same note/pitch? I hope so. I have to call it a night and check in tomorrow. Thanks.


Edited by LindaR (09/16/10 12:42 AM)
Edit Reason: 31 to 33 changed.

Top
#1516486 - 09/16/10 10:54 AM Re: How is this played? [Re: LindaR]
packa Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1397
Loc: Dallas, TX
Originally Posted By: LindaR
Sonatina op 55 no 3, Kuhlau and about the 32nd and 33rd measure

I found an old Schirmer public domain edition of this on imslp.org, but I didn't see the example you describe in half and quarter notes. I did find this in the first movement:



If this is along the lines you are asking, then my original answer was correct. The half-note third in the RH is tied to an eighth-note third followed by three other eighth-note thirds (the first of which just repeats the tied third). The dots are staccato marks and indicate that a brief rest should be added AFTER each dotted third (without changing the rhythm of course).

The dot over the tied eighth-note third corresponds to the dotted eighth note in the LH, so the RH and LH should release their notes together here when creating the detached sound. Also, the half-note third has an accent mark indicating that it needs to be emphasized when it is first played.
_________________________
Paul Buchanan
Estonia L168 #1718

Top
#1516892 - 09/16/10 09:51 PM Re: How is this played? [Re: LindaR]
LindaR Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/08
Posts: 160
Loc: Northern California
Thanks everyone. Packa that was what I was thinking of, variations of the example you scanned for me. I guess but you are saying the right hand isn't articulated just lifted quickly to in stacatto or portamento way at same time as left hand and are you saying that? I guess that is why I thought the tie was there. I see variations of this everywhere and my knowledge isn't about knowing how to fix this. smile

Top
#1516917 - 09/16/10 10:41 PM Re: How is this played? [Re: LindaR]
packa Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1397
Loc: Dallas, TX
Originally Posted By: LindaR
Thanks everyone. Packa that was what I was thinking of, variations of the example you scanned for me. I guess but you are saying the right hand isn't articulated just lifted quickly to in stacatto or portamento way at same time as left hand and are you saying that? I guess that is why I thought the tie was there. I see variations of this everywhere and my knowledge isn't about knowing how to fix this. smile

I would say that staccato means a SHORTENED sound rather than always a SHORT QUICK sound. A staccato mark over an eighth or sixteenth note certainly suggests a quick "grace-note-like" sound production, especially at fast tempos. But dots over longer notes like quarter notes or at slower tempos may just be somewhat shortened and detached but without the quick "jabbing" sound you may be imagining. That is the case with the tied notes in the example. You still hold the tied notes for ALMOST their full duration.
_________________________
Paul Buchanan
Estonia L168 #1718

Top
#1516939 - 09/16/10 11:30 PM Re: How is this played? [Re: LindaR]
LindaR Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/08
Posts: 160
Loc: Northern California
I understand staccato differently. I give up. Thanks for help.

Top
#1517222 - 09/17/10 12:29 PM Re: How is this played? [Re: LindaR]
michele3gsp Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 9
Loc: Connecticut
Hello Linda
I have the Kuhlau Sonatina Book 1. Although I am not to Op.55, #3 yet. In looking at measures 32 & 33 I expect my teacher to have me hold the b&d in the right hand through the half note and come up and off early on the tied eighth note to have a staccato feel.... and then play the remaining 3 eighth notes stacatto. hope this helps

Top
#1517233 - 09/17/10 01:04 PM Re: How is this played? [Re: LindaR]
LindaR Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/08
Posts: 160
Loc: Northern California
Okay thanks, I think that is what Packa said too... But with the remaining 3 eighth notes just short of full time-portamentoish. Now to try it out in real time. smile

Top
#1517246 - 09/17/10 01:25 PM Re: How is this played? [Re: michele3gsp]
packa Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1397
Loc: Dallas, TX
Originally Posted By: michele3gsp
... come up and off early on the tied eighth note to have a staccato feel.... and then play the remaining 3 eighth notes stacatto

Yes. And the reason for lifting early in the RH is to allow that staccato eighth note in the LH to really stand out as a short detached sound that establishes the feel for the three following staccato eighth notes in the RH.
_________________________
Paul Buchanan
Estonia L168 #1718

Top
#1517287 - 09/17/10 02:21 PM Re: How is this played? [Re: LindaR]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11422
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: LindaR
Okay thanks, I think that is what Packa said too... But with the remaining 3 eighth notes just short of full time-portamentoish. Now to try it out in real time. smile


Just to clear up some possible confusion: portamento is different from portato. In the case where you are playing something staccato but not really short, just detached, that is portato. Portamento is when you slide from one pitch to the next (not literally possible on the piano as this is different than a glissando). smile
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

Top
#1517316 - 09/17/10 03:02 PM Re: How is this played? [Re: Morodiene]
packa Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1397
Loc: Dallas, TX
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: LindaR
Okay thanks, I think that is what Packa said too... But with the remaining 3 eighth notes just short of full time-portamentoish. Now to try it out in real time. smile


Just to clear up some possible confusion: portamento is different from portato. In the case where you are playing something staccato but not really short, just detached, that is portato. Portamento is when you slide from one pitch to the next (not literally possible on the piano as this is different than a glissando). smile

The distinction with portato is certainly true, but portamento is sometimes, although much more rarely, used as a synonym for appogiatura, which is obviously possible on a piano (e.g. see the entry for "portamento" in The Oxford Companion To Music).
_________________________
Paul Buchanan
Estonia L168 #1718

Top
#1517337 - 09/17/10 03:27 PM Re: How is this played? [Re: packa]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11422
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: packa
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: LindaR
Okay thanks, I think that is what Packa said too... But with the remaining 3 eighth notes just short of full time-portamentoish. Now to try it out in real time. smile


Just to clear up some possible confusion: portamento is different from portato. In the case where you are playing something staccato but not really short, just detached, that is portato. Portamento is when you slide from one pitch to the next (not literally possible on the piano as this is different than a glissando). smile

The distinction with portato is certainly true, but portamento is sometimes, although much more rarely, used as a synonym for appogiatura, which is obviously possible on a piano (e.g. see the entry for "portamento" in The Oxford Companion To Music).


Which I do not see in the musical example provided, unless I missed something coming in late to the discussion. smile
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

Top
#1517346 - 09/17/10 03:47 PM Re: How is this played? [Re: Morodiene]
packa Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1397
Loc: Dallas, TX
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: packa
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: LindaR
Okay thanks, I think that is what Packa said too... But with the remaining 3 eighth notes just short of full time-portamentoish. Now to try it out in real time. smile


Just to clear up some possible confusion: portamento is different from portato. In the case where you are playing something staccato but not really short, just detached, that is portato. Portamento is when you slide from one pitch to the next (not literally possible on the piano as this is different than a glissando). smile

The distinction with portato is certainly true, but portamento is sometimes, although much more rarely, used as a synonym for appogiatura, which is obviously possible on a piano (e.g. see the entry for "portamento" in The Oxford Companion To Music).


Which I do not see in the musical example provided, unless I missed something coming in late to the discussion. smile

I don't see it either, but I thought of this secondary definition when I was trying to really understand some of the language in the original question. I wondered if it was identifying the detached nature of staccato with the short, quick sound of some kinds of appogiaturas. Of course, we know that appogiaturas are seldom detached from their principal notes, and in some performance traditions, like Baroque music, they are not always that quick. Sorry, I seem to be drifting OT here.
_________________________
Paul Buchanan
Estonia L168 #1718

Top
#1517369 - 09/17/10 04:19 PM Re: How is this played? [Re: LindaR]
LindaR Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/08
Posts: 160
Loc: Northern California
Maybe so.

Top

Moderator:  BB Player, casinitaly 
What's Hot!!
Our latest Issue is available now...
Piano News - Interesting & Fun Piano Related Newsletter! (free)
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
129 registered (AndrewJCW, Art_Vandelay, alfstan, Alex1, 37 invisible), 1511 Guests and 12 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75521 Members
42 Forums
156166 Topics
2293438 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Please help! Hoping for advice regarding Yamaha purchase
by Lady
07/25/14 06:22 PM
Piano Practice Technique - Only Slow?
by JoeHom
07/25/14 05:53 PM
Wow, early Arrau!
by Ian_G
07/25/14 05:02 PM
Bored kid at Cosco..
by Norbert
07/25/14 04:37 PM
Need help and advice please!
by Pover
07/25/14 04:36 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission