sam, a nyc tech told me today that it is illegal for a dealer to hold your deposit on a piano and that they must return it. i asked what you should do, and he said, "get a lawyer."

possibly a letter from an attorney would change piano piano's mind about not returning your deposit.

good luck!

Lawyer letters are very sobering for those on the receiving end. We use them to demand customers who are way overdue in paying their bills, and who have not kept to their promises to pay, and have an appetite for taking us out as long as possible.

The letter almost always gets a response. and that's just for deadbeat customers who refuse to pay, and seem to enjoy this type of behavior.

A lawyer's letter received by a business usually makes mgmt face the fact that they don't want to get involved in a suit, not worth it, they'll have to pay their own atty, etc.

Do it. It can't hurt.

Pique,

Thanks so much for the info. I'll get on it today. Maybe you've already posted it somewhere, but how did the tech visit go? He came yesterday, right. I can't wait to learn of the results.

Bruce, thanks. What's new on CW/Petrof chapter?

sam,
no i haven't posted about it. and yes, my dealer's tech did come yesterday--flying 2,500 miles, on two hours sleep, and 3 1/2 hours of driving in a blizzard over mountain passes. this was a tech visit of heroic proportions .

i guess this thread is as good a place as any to post about what happened, especially since the title of the thread may lead people shopping in nyc to it.

i want to state here on this public forum that carl demler of beethoven pianos is a true mensch, and that anyone having any doubts about buying from him for any reason, whatsoever, should feel complete confidence in purchasing from him. he has gone far beyond the call of duty in making certain that i am happy with my piano, and he is obviously someone who cares more about the heart and soul of music and musicians than just about the bottom line.

the tech he flew out to fix my piano was fantastic. he spent twelve hours at my house (not all of it spent working--we also ate well, and had some great conversations), he very quickly assessed the problems and addressed them in stages, and when it came time to voice the piano he interviewed me to understand what i was looking for, and he "got" it and produced it.

then he drove back off into the night in a winter storm, back over the mountain passes.

i now have the piano i bought in new york in my living room. it is incredible. i now feel like i had hoped to feel the day it arrived three months ago--like i don't want to do anything except play my piano!

and i am left with a very powerful appreciation of and gratitude towards my dealer. he could have just as easily left me out here in the cold, and i would have been very hard pressed to do much of anything about it.

this tech also told me something of what is going on in the piano market in new york, and how crushing the competition is there. i want to point out that beethoven's has the same caliber of inventory as some of his more snooty, neighboring competitors, prepared and voiced by the same technician that they use, AND priced FAR lower, and backed up by carl's integrity, and word, which he has just dramatically proved is worth a lot. there is no other dealer in new york that i am aware of who would have sent his tech out 2,500 miles (through a winter storm, no less, though that wasn't planned ) to make sure his customer was happy!!

i should also add that this tech says he would not have made this trip for anyone but carl, because of who carl is as a person. carl has engendered that kind of loyalty from the people who do work for him.

so, i am reporting here as a very satisfied customer, who gets paid nothing at all for making this endorsement. but i think carl deserves it, and i think anyone here who is shopping in the new york area should take a close look at what beethoven's has to offer. i want beethoven's to thrive, but i also think my fellow piano shoppers will get good deals there, that are backed up by the owner.

Sam,

Thanks for asking. I was supposed to get a call from either Jerry or his ops mgr yesterday to present the "Chinese menu" to select from. Didn't get a call. I called late yesterday and left a message with Jerry's assistant.

If I don't hear by 4:00 PM today, I will call. It feels like the heat just went up a few degrees, but I am cautiously optimistic that they still plan on coming up with a fair resolution.

pique,

Where the heck do you live? What a great story!

I can't find any info on Beethoven on the web. Do they have a site? I seem to recall I stumbled upon them during a surf session a few months ago, but when I go to Google, all I get is a listing of worldwide events relating to Beethoven and piano music.

Oh, Pique. Great! I am so HAPPY that everything worked out great for your Grotrian. Music is such an integral part of your life, and you're so passionate about pianos that it's only befitting that your awesome piano should be at its best possible shape. I share your opinions of Beethoven, it's a great store and Carl is a true gentleman. I do think they need to expand the selection of their uprights, though. Congratulations!

i live out in the wilderness
www.beethovenpianos.com

Bruce,

It's Beethovenpianos.com. You should check them out, just in case you can get out of the Piano piano deal. Last time I was there, they had a few nearly new CWs in excellent shape.

sam,
thanks for your kind words. i'm now in the enviable position of hoping that some day my skills as a pianist will be worthy of the instrument i purchased. well, i have to run back over to it!

bruce and sam, i'm afraid i didn't hear good things about piano piano. i think the word was "sleazy." this is the third or fourth time i have heard this from piano professionals.

bruce, perhaps you should prepare yourself to be more aggressive about getting what you want. but also, you know, even if piano piano turns its back on you, you can always go to the walters to get satisfaction--they have a great reputation. and their pianos are very fine instruments, every bit as good as the petrof, and possibly better made.

This is why lawyers shouldn't try to tune their pianos, and piano tuners shouldn't practice law!

He's incorrect. I don't take deposits, let me state for the record. The reason is because of the definition of a "deposit".

A deposit is a payment. You are not simply asking someone to hold your money for you, you are paying them for a service. The service you are paying for is to have the dealer remove the piano in question from the market. You are *paying* the dealer to not sell it.

If the dealer takes it off the market and doesn't sell it, he has provided you the service you paid for. Just because you decided you didn't want to buy it either is beside the point. He has already provided you with the service you paid him to give you. So legally, you do not have the right to demand a deposit back. Ask any real estate salesman.

That's why you should never give someone a deposit, and why I refuse to take them. If you don't know yet whether or not you want a particular piano, I don't want to turn away a buying customer just to let you think about it. That isn't fair to the dealer, or the customer who wanted to buy it. If I take your deposit, then in the course of fulfilling the service you paid me to do I turn down a cash sale on it, and you come in the next day and ask for your deposit back, I have been harmed. I don't mean to sound cruel, but you guys need to look at both sides of things. In the example I just gave, your indecision just cost me a lot of money, and you're wanting to walk away scott free. That's why the term "refundable deposit" is an oxymoron, and why no judge will ever make the dealer return it to you. You asked for a service to be provided, and then you paid for the service. The dealer provided it, so you can't ask for the money back because he fulfilled his end of the agreement.

Moral of the story: Don't give anyone money unless you're ready to buy it.

What a great story!!! I am very pleased that your piano is all you had hoped it would be. It is hard to believe any dealer going to such lengths for their customers. I have gone above and beyond the call of duty for customers of mine in the past, but that must be nearly a world's record. Beethoven should work on their website. It didn't make its story clear to me and I just passed it over. You cannot judge a book by its cover or a store by its website. Happy playing!!!

larry,
neither of us is qualified to practice law, but i will pass on one more piece of information the tech gave me. evidently there is some kind of a consumer protection law in new york that would protect sam's interests.

sam,
there is a good way to find out--ask your attorney.

Bruce,

Larry's post just gave me an idea that I'd like to run by you, offline. Your email is not listed, can you email at mv20@columbia.edu. Thanks.

Larry, thanks for the post. I understand your point completely, except that unlike the scenario you depicted, I was committed to buying the piano. Finally, I chose not complete the sale because of the behavior of the salesperson toward me, AND most importantly because of the response of the manager when I told him that I wanted another salesperson. The last thing that made me want to run for my life from them was when I received a call at work telling me that my piano was on the truck being delivered to me when I made no such plan, and no one had told me of any such plan. As a dealer, I can see your point, but Larry, believe me, you have no idea what I experienced at that store. Just for that, they ought to refund myb money. I am contacting my lawyer, but I will not make a stinker if I can't have my money back. After all, I made the mistake. I have a store credit, for whatever that's worth to me.

Sam,

I just e mailed you.

With your store credit, you could buy a bunch of lamps and benches.

Larry,

I, too, had a bad experience with the same saleperson. She engaged in unfounded accusations about a competing dealer. What she said was important enough that I called Geneva Intl. She was dead wrong, and I did not appreciate that style of selling.

Similarly, I didn't appreciate the anger and offensive behavior displayed by another dealer on LI when I decided to buy from Piano Piano. Not only was his behavior replete with slurs towards the competition, he was incredibly inappropriate on the telephone, demanding to know how much I paid. It grew to the point where I calmly told him he had become offensive and there was nothing more to discuss.

Should that conversation ever have taken place? Should the saleperson at Piano Piano engaged in providing false information, even if she may have believed it to be true (ie, I'll even give her the benefit of the doubt that this was not a willful, deliberate thing)?

I ended up buying at Piano Piano because I eventually dealt with a wonderful salesperson, and their price was excellent.

As a dealer, I'm sure you have an opinion. I know you would be offended to be on the receiving end of such treatment as a consumer, and you certainly wouldn't appreciate any competitors spreading false information about your establishment.

[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: BrulBruce ]

[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: BrulBruce ]

Sam,

Now this is a completely different matter. This is a case where you are under no obligation to follow through with the sale, and they are not in any shape or form entitled to keep your money. My earlier post dealt with the hypothetical "refundable deposit" thing. In a case where the dealer has done the things you describe, he should be hung from the nearest post and shot at dawn. He isn't entitled to keep your money. Like the others have said, get an attorney.

You're right, I do have an opinion. My opinion is that you are absolutely correct. There is no call for treating a customer this way, or for engaging in the kind of mudslinging you mention. As I told Sam, my post dealt with the issue of a "refundable deposit", not with the issue of a dealer in the process of screwing a customer or acting in an unethical manner. Both of you were treated poorly, and are under no obligation whatsoever to give these people a dime. Any money you've given them should be handed back to you immediately. I can't imagine a dealer even *wanting* to keep your money after hearing how his salesperson had treated a customer. If I were to hear of one of my employees treating a customer this way, not only would you get your money back, I would let you witness the final 60 seconds of that person's employment with me. Then, after I had given you back your money, I would take you into my office, make you a cup of coffee, and offer to earn your business again. If I couldn't, I might even call up the dealer you were now wanting to buy from and see if I couldn't get you a better deal. Seriously.

Larry,

Yours is a most gracious response. I would think that you would, in fact, earn the business back on half the customers.

Regarding my own situation, Piano Piano contacted me today, and we are finalizing a solution tomorrow.

I believe they are honoring the price discussed about the Petrof 125 from weeks ago, although we ended up purchasing a CW.

I also believe they will offer a very competitive price on the 131. This is the piano I dream about (from the verticals I have played). From what I understand, they have a tech from Czech Republic who truly makes these pianos sing.

Tomorrow is another day, so we shall see. They've been ripped pretty well here in the past. If they resolve my situation in a customer-friendly (boy, is that subjective) manner, then I will be happy to offer the praise that is due them.

I wholeheartedly agree.

I would be interested in knowing what sort of retail establishments you like to trade at when you are buying as a retail customer. Tires perhaps, appliances, automobile repairs? Big chain stores? Mom and Pops? Based on price alone or more of a package?

And have you ever encountered such wretched treatment in any store as that which I keep hearing about (but have never seen)in piano stores?

I have been thinking back and I can't say as I have ever been treated like this at any place I have ever traded. Not once, not ever. I can not see the sense in such behavior - surely it's not good for business. I sure as hell would not tolerate it in mine.

As a retail customer, what do you think?

[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: Steve Miller ]

An exceptionally odd thing is why would Piano Piano not let Sam deal with another salesperson, especially after things had gone awry? What did they have to gain by that? Seems to me - nothing! I don't get it.

Bruce,

I couldn't understand it myself. But again, I only spoke to the general manager; Gerry seemed to be always unavailable. Even now, my friend who had referred me to the store, (who herself had bought from them) has been trying to intervene on my behalf, and she 's been told that she must NEGOTIATE with her and NOONE else. But apparently, L, has been out sick for a while. We are all dumfounded. I think it's possible that she may be more than just a salesperson, maybe she has a lot of pull, or something.

did you find out anything from your attorney, sam?

this sounds like a case for the desk-sitting method. it's a freelancer's last, secret weapon for getting the check the client keeps saying is in the mail.

go down to the store and sit on the manager's desk and tell them you are not moving until you get your deposit back in full.

this is especially effective when there are lots of other customers in the store!

Pique,

He's writing a letter. He feels that everything should work out. Thanks for asking.

regards,

I wonder if PP cares to monitor a forum like this. Maybe dealers feel this is where the crazies congregate to howl at the moon.

Bruce

You finally hit the nail on the head. It is the first thing that you have said that I agree with!

lb

lb,

Ever hear that howl by Warren Zevon in Werewolves of London?

Who knows? But I would bet the sales people are on a commission-only type compensation package and the employer is sick of the fighting between sales people about the stealing of customers. Obviously, there was someone saw a greater benefit to themselves in having a disgruntled customer than in offering a different sales person.

The question I have about all of this is just how much the final price of the piano played in the decision to buy from this dealer? If it was the overwhelming determinant, then we have a caveat emptor situation.

Many a time I have paid more for something than I could get at another outlet because I was getting better service, was being treated more respectfully, etc. I am willing to pay for this for two reasons: 1) If I am treated well in the shopping experience, the store has gained my confidence that I am not being screwed. And 2) The attitude on the sales floor likely pervades the entire business.

If there is a problem, I want to know the store management will be there to resolve it. Rest assured, if I pay as little as I can but have to fight to be treated right, this same fight is going to occur everytime I need something from that store. If I never need another thing, this is OK. But if I do need something....