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#1521442 - 09/23/10 09:54 PM Taubman/Golandsky methods
Tubbie0075 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 544
I'm just wondering, how many teachers and students here are teaching/learning these playing techniques/methods?

If not, how many of hear of it?

What are your thoughts of it?

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#1521728 - 09/24/10 09:51 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]
Tubbie0075 Offline
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Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 544
Amazing! 50 odd people read this post but no one knows about Taubman or Golandsky.

Do you know what you are teaching your students or being taught to curve the fingers or twist the wrists? fatigue and injuries. Really, find out about Taubman and Golandsky. There's nothing to loose. There are a few videos on youtube.

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#1521754 - 09/24/10 10:37 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]
Morodiene Offline
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Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Simply because no one replies doesn't mean we don't know if it. It's been around a while. I teach arm weight and release of tension, but I did not attend any taubman workshops.
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#1521770 - 09/24/10 11:11 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
Originally Posted By: Tubbie0075
Amazing! 50 odd people read this post but no one knows about Taubman or Golandsky.

Do you know what you are teaching your students or being taught to curve the fingers or twist the wrists? fatigue and injuries. Really, find out about Taubman and Golandsky. There's nothing to loose. There are a few videos on youtube.
There is a lot to lose.

People (at least me) didn't reply because they kind of sensed somehow that you weren't asking because you were curious, but because you wanted to promote.
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#1521774 - 09/24/10 11:17 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7302
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: Tubbie0075
Amazing! 50 odd people read this post but no one knows about Taubman or Golandsky.

Do you know what you are teaching your students or being taught to curve the fingers or twist the wrists? fatigue and injuries. Really, find out about Taubman and Golandsky. There's nothing to loose. There are a few videos on youtube.

So, are you selling Golandsky classes? Of course, most teachers know about arm weight, tension, release, etc.. This isn't unique to Taubman or Golandsky. And, as with most things in performance art, there are differing opinions on technique.
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#1521785 - 09/24/10 11:49 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]
D4v3 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 501
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: Tubbie0075
Amazing! 50 odd people read this post but no one knows about Taubman or Golandsky.

Do you know what you are teaching your students or being taught to curve the fingers or twist the wrists? fatigue and injuries. Really, find out about Taubman and Golandsky. There's nothing to loose. There are a few videos on youtube.


I dont know why but I wanted get all stabby when I read that post.

Also I suddenly had an urge to buy a Kirby Vaccuum.
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#1521966 - 09/24/10 05:04 PM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]
Tubbie0075 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 544
I live in Australia and there's no Golandsky workshops or classes to attend here, certainly nothing for me to sell.

I'm an adult student and recently returned to piano lessons. My current teacher mentioned about it. Other than YouTube and Internet there's not much for me to find out.

Since many people in this forum are from the America, I thought I would get some responses. Perhaps it was the way I ask that seems to trigger annoyance. I was frustrated no one would tell me more, so I made the second post.

It seems like people do know it but still refused to share. Is there something bad about the Golandsky Institute I need to know?

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#1522212 - 09/25/10 01:03 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
Tubbie, your posts do not match. Your second post's structure and tone are most definitely those of a sales pitch. Scare tactic, veiled promise of a secret solution to the scare, closing with a bread crumb for the treasure hunt. If you are not here to sell courses, well, you should be. smile

People "refusing to share" means they are politely refraining from saying anything. You are going to have to fill in the blanks for yourself.
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#1522246 - 09/25/10 03:16 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]
Daffodil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/07
Posts: 166
Loc: In a big country
Hi Tubbie, you might be interested in this previous thread on pianoworld:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...ite_id/1#import


I'm studying with the methods taught by Australia's Max Cooke. Have a look at his 'Tone Touch and Technique' which is two books and has an accompanying DVD.

Many teachers in Australia use his books, although sadly I know from personal experience that many don't fully understand the techniques themselves.



Edited by Daffodil (09/25/10 03:20 AM)
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#1522251 - 09/25/10 04:00 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]
Tubbie0075 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 544
Thank you Daffodil. That is a really good post to read.

To the rest of the readers here who are offended or being "polite" (as david_a puts it) I apologize for the misunderstanding. Can someone show me how to remove this post from the forum? Boy am I sorry to have ever asked.

Have a good and productive weekend!

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#1522266 - 09/25/10 06:03 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5901
Loc: Down Under
What you also have to remember is that just because there have been 50 "views" that doesn't mean they were piano teachers, or regular posters to this forum, or people with the time to answer, or people with what they thought was something significant to say. You need to give a request time, sometimes. For example I've been out working all day and have only just got home and logged on.

The other suggestion is to do a search. There have been many threads on Taubman in the past, and you might get a better feel for what's around.
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#1523347 - 09/27/10 12:14 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]
BrizzyGrace Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 25
Loc: Australia
Hello Tubbie,

I teach and am still being taught the Taubman Approach.
(We have only one fully acredited teacher over here in Australia and I learn from her).

As an adult I became injured (carpal tunnel) and retrained with my current teacher. I went on to finish my Performance Diploma and am now currently teaching whilst studying piano pedagogy and continuing with my Taubman studies.

I found great relief by using the Taubman Approach and did not need to have the operation suggested by the doctors and my virtuosity at the piano has come ahead in leaps and bounds.

So in my opinion, I give this technique a definite thumbs up, and I am very grateful to Dorothy Taubman and Edna Golandsky for their efforts.

Without them (and my wonderful teacher), I do believe that I would not be playing the piano now never mind having passed my exam.

HTH,
Grace
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#1523384 - 09/27/10 01:27 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]
Opus_Maximus Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/04
Posts: 1478
I know many people swear by Taubman, and while it may have some good elements, what turns me off about it is the way it has developed over the years into sort of a cult following or "secret method" of piano playing, deemed by Taubman teachers as the "Only right way to play the piano".

While it very well may be - from a purely physiological standpoint - it must be kept in mind that in piano playing (Unlike sports), the physicality of it is only a means to an end, where in sports the physical aspect is an end in and of itself. The end result is the sound and artistry produced from the instrument, and whatever movements get the job done are satisfactory.

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#1523386 - 09/27/10 01:42 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Opus_Maximus]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 874
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Opus_Maximus
While it very well may be - from a purely physiological standpoint - it must be kept in mind that in piano playing (Unlike sports), the physicality of it is only a means to an end, where in sports the physical aspect is an end in and of itself. The end result is the sound and artistry produced from the instrument, and whatever movements get the job done are satisfactory.
That's well put but I'd have to say performance is sports with a layer of art on top. Though some of its claims are dubious, Taubman is excellent. The wrong movement just won't sound right, that is why they claim Taubman is just an analysis of how all great pianists play.

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#1523412 - 09/27/10 02:57 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: chopin_r_us]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us
... that is why they claim Taubman is just an analysis of how all great pianists play.
Who went out to do the analysis of all great pianists? I hope whoever it was they got home in time for dinner. smile
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#1523416 - 09/27/10 03:04 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Opus_Maximus]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5418
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Opus_Maximus
a cult following or "secret method" of piano playing, deemed by Taubman teachers as the "Only right way to play the piano"


Well, there's nothing secretive about it. I think once you learn it, it's just difficult to switch to a different technique.
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#1523476 - 09/27/10 05:03 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: chopin_r_us]
Opus_Maximus Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/04
Posts: 1478
Quote:
The wrong movement just won't sound right, that is why they claim Taubman is just an analysis of how all great pianists play.


This implies that there is only ONE right movement per passage - suitable to all pianists - that will make it sound right, and if you watch 10 great pianists playing the same passage, their movements and gestures will all respectively differ according to their hand structures and musical conception of the passage.

I remember someone on this forum a few years ago (I don't remember who it was, but I think it could be found with a search if someone really had enough time), who claimed there were studying with a renowned Taubmann teacher and was happy with the results, but not happy with the fact that this teacher was saying that Rubinstein and Horowtiz were "playing the piano completely, totally wrong"

I also find it a bit strange that both Dorthy Taubmann and Edna Golandsky - the two greatest champions of the method - have (to my knowledge), not a single recording available to their credit.


Edited by Opus_Maximus (09/27/10 05:16 AM)

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#1523480 - 09/27/10 05:09 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]
Opus_Maximus Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/04
Posts: 1478
Just to add to what I was saying before, it is possible that sometimes the movement that is more difficult physically, or "incorrect" will yield the more artistic result. Look at the physical awkwardness of a Gould, Serkin, or Pogorelich at the piano. Sometimes comfort and agility can be sacrificed for a certain sound. Obviously these are idiosyncratic extremes, but still...

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#1523492 - 09/27/10 06:06 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
I think there are some serious students who have been helped by Taubman style teaching. Whether that help came about by design or by accident I'm not able to discern.

But... Regardless of whose course is being presented, there is a fairly large "club" of people in Piano Land who are after just one thing. They are waiting, pencil poised above notebook and lecture recorder running, for somebody, anybody, (preferably with impressive credentials but anybody will do in a pinch), to give them THE ANSWER so they can write it down and keep it for when they need it.

Any piano teacher or piano organization that capitalizes on this fact by going on tour and proclaiming their version of THE ANSWER to each local chapter of the "answer club", whether accidentally or on purpose, will probably make out just fine.


Edited by david_a (09/27/10 06:07 AM)
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#1523497 - 09/27/10 06:27 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]
JustAnotherPianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 798
Loc: United Kingdom
opus maximus...Pogo was not physically awkward at the piano. He had one of the most stunning examples ever of what we call piano technique. He happens to be very tall with massive hands... watch his 3rd Chopin Scherzo video or Scarlatti to see what I mean. Playing piano was like breathing for Pogo in his heyday. He had comfort and agility at the age of 20 that few pianists ever approach at all over their careers.

Aside from that, I agree with you.
Taubman/Golandsky are laughing all the way to the bank selling their $500 set of 10 DVDs.

Their work is widely recognized and touted by amateur pianists the world over. I can assure you, it gets very little, if any attention in professional circles. Simply put, all of that rotation will hurt your playing.

Some principles of the method are used by professionals. However, T/G places too great an emphasis on these principles without TOUCHING the more important aspects of technique.

It is a lucrative scam.

I studied with a wonderful Taubmann teacher for four years. She worked frequently with Edna before eventually abandoning the method upon realizing its inadequacy.

Please don't take this post personally. Taubmann can really be the right thing for some people. If you want to take your playing to the highest level of refinement and sophistication,you're going to need a LOT more than Taubmann.

It's all good though wink The overwhelming majority of people who study the piano have better things to do than develop their playing to the highest level. Day jobs. Families and houses to look after.

Taubmann can genuinely be a liberating and empowering journey for many of these people.

I also object to their slick marketing. Virtuosity in a Box? $500?

Come on. Great pianists know darn well that virtuosity doesn't come in a box for an exorbitant amount of money.

Folks please make sure to check my youtube channel before attacking my credentials, technical or otherwise.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=classicaluploads&aq=f

As DavidA says, there are many people in the world waiting for a magical cure... a simple answer.

Taubman/Golandsky prey upon the naivate of such people. They are slick businesspeople, and NOT great pedagogues.

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#1523526 - 09/27/10 08:13 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 874
Loc: UK
Of course one of their most dubious claims is that their DVD's are worth $500.

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#1523718 - 09/27/10 01:46 PM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Opus_Maximus]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5418
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Opus_Maximus
I also find it a bit strange that both Dorthy Taubmann and Edna Golandsky - the two greatest champions of the method - have (to my knowledge), not a single recording available to their credit.


You can't make that comparison. Teaching and performing are two totally different skills. Some of the best pianists in the world probably can't teach at all, and vice versa.

I've observed a few of Golandsky's master classes. She seems to know what she's talking about, and her comments are quite insightful.
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#1523725 - 09/27/10 01:59 PM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
"Seems to know what she's talking about, and her comments are quite insightful" describes any good piano teacher anywhere.

It's a great leap from there to the kind of claims that are made by her and on her behalf.
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#1523757 - 09/27/10 02:51 PM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: JustAnotherPianist]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 874
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: JustAnotherPianist

Taubman/Golandsky prey upon the naivate of such people. They are slick businesspeople, and NOT great pedagogues.
I think you'll find Taubman is already recognized around the world as a great pedagogue. Your performance of Chopin's B minor is a real achievement but doesn't really come into it. Come back uninjured in 30 years time and maybe then judgements could be made.

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#1523790 - 09/27/10 03:57 PM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: chopin_r_us]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us
I think you'll find Taubman is already recognized around the world as a great pedagogue.
Recognized by great pianists, or recognized by the notebook-toting quick-fix crowd mentioned above?

The pedagogy lecture circuit becomes its own self-sustaining inward-looking culture after a while, separate from the rest of the world. The opinion of persons inside that culture is not particularly relevant.
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#1523796 - 09/27/10 04:14 PM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: david_a]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 874
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: david_a
The pedagogy lecture circuit becomes its own self-sustaining inward-looking culture after a while, separate from the rest of the world. The opinion of persons inside that culture is not particularly relevant.
Bit of a sweeping generalization?

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#1523909 - 09/27/10 07:01 PM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: chopin_r_us]
JustAnotherPianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 798
Loc: United Kingdom
Thanks, chopin_r_us
It's the the Bb minor I've got there at the moment. I'll be putting the B minor on there soon, though.

As I've said, I studied Taubman for four years with a well-regarded Taubman teacher. What I am saying is that I could never have reached this level of playing with Taubman technique alone.

Your implication that my technique could be a ticking time bomb to RSIs in x years is based on a complete lack of knowledge of my playing mechanism and practice habits....what's up with that? It takes a great deal of strength to be able to play in a relaxed enough way to tackle the piano repertoire with finesse.

Building up this strength is a slow process which does not involve anything to do with Taubman principles. It's a process which does not involve the somewhat more immediate rewards promised by T/G.

Once developed, this strength allows pianists to move with great freedom. Rotation is seldom used, because it is seldom needed. It is strength in the muscles of the palms, and strength in the muscles of the belly of the forearm.

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#1523923 - 09/27/10 07:29 PM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: chopin_r_us]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us
Originally Posted By: david_a
The pedagogy lecture circuit becomes its own self-sustaining inward-looking culture after a while, separate from the rest of the world. The opinion of persons inside that culture is not particularly relevant.
Bit of a sweeping generalization?
Yup. No apologies though, because it's a pretty accurate one. Nobody is stepping up with examples of major well-known performers who promote Taubman.
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#1523938 - 09/27/10 07:51 PM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]
JustAnotherPianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 798
Loc: United Kingdom
Rather an insightful generalization at that.

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#1523965 - 09/27/10 09:13 PM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: david_a]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11421
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: david_a
Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us
Originally Posted By: david_a
The pedagogy lecture circuit becomes its own self-sustaining inward-looking culture after a while, separate from the rest of the world. The opinion of persons inside that culture is not particularly relevant.
Bit of a sweeping generalization?
Yup. No apologies though, because it's a pretty accurate one. Nobody is stepping up with examples of major well-known performers who promote Taubman.


I think perhaps that this is more due to the fact that many teachers teach relaxation and arm weight without being Taubman followers, than it has to do with a criticism of the technique. Or in other words, they don't have the corner market on playing without pain and with freedom.
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