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#1523389 - 09/27/10 01:48 AM Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece
hawgdriver Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 637
Loc: Denver, CO
It's foolhardy to tackle Schubert's Wanderer-Fantasie (Allegro) as a first piece of music. Those that have cautioned me earlier, thank you for the consideration.

Well, I'm stubborn, and I'm still going at it. After almost a year, I'm still trying to learn it and play it.

I would like some advice. I think I'm doing well, but am I?

Please take a listen and tell me if you think I should continue with my attempt at the piece, given that this is my first piece and I've spent ten months on it. Determine my trajectory, if you will. Thank you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Poa4sF5RAwo

by the way, this is the first 2 pages of 5, and I have not brought the other 3 pages up to a reasonable tempo yet (that's what I'm trying to figure out--should I? or should I put it on the shelf for a bit?)


Edited by hawgdriver (09/27/10 01:51 AM)
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#1523394 - 09/27/10 01:56 AM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: hawgdriver]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19833
Loc: New York
I took a listen to the first minute or so, in spite of my thinking this was ridiculous.
(Actually because, not in spite.) smile

From what I heard, you're doing very well -- so well that I have to wonder if this is a put-on.

P.S. There's a well-known pianist named Schub. You're not his cloned brother, are you? ha
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"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1523402 - 09/27/10 02:27 AM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: hawgdriver]
gerg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 1651
Loc: Houston, TX
I question blanket statements like "It is foolhardy to learn x as a first piece."

Maybe, maybe not. Much depends upon who you are, your personality profile, your learning style, your goals.

If you stick with the tried-and-true academic path, you are sure to encounter material at your level that exacts technical demands applicable by most in that tier/grade/level/whatever. This is probably best for 98% of students.

For the minority, however, those who enjoy the challenge of unravelling things for themselves, to whom the unravelling process itself is a source of pleasure... why not? What harm can come of it and who is going to stop you? Moreover, who are others, except those close to you, to judge your capacity to learn, to identify specific technical areas for work and, well, work them?

From the Youtube, it sounds like you're having much fun with the piece.

I will warn you, without a technical foundation it is up to you to lay one. You must insert the appropriate beat emphasis for each beat. You must interpret voicing and phrasing. Certainly you are capable of this if you've come this far; just be aware of it.
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#1523413 - 09/27/10 03:01 AM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: gerg]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19833
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: gerg
....You must insert the appropriate beat emphasis for each beat. You must interpret voicing and phrasing. Certainly you are capable of this if you've come this far; just be aware of it.

I'm surprised you're mentioning those things. Firstly, you're stating them as though they are basic fact, and in this case, IMO they're not. I mean, arguably Hawgdriver is doing those things quite enough (it's a matter of interpretation and taste) -- and for a (supposed) smile beginner, he's doing them to an incredible extent.

Is your main reaction not just being floored that a beginner playing his/her first piece would play this well?

That's mine.

The portion I heard is better than I would expect from most intermediate-level people, and better even than we'd hear from some who consider themselves advanced.
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"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1523417 - 09/27/10 03:04 AM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: hawgdriver]
Victor25 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/30/09
Posts: 1676
Loc: The Netherlands
That piano sounds very very weird. But the playing really isn't bad at all. Play what you love, then you will keep playing! After a long time one of the first pieces I picked up was Beethoven's Op90 second movement. It wasn't anywhere near my level at the time, but I loved it so much, I just kept playing it, and I learned it eventually, and still love the piece with all my heart. It might be good to pick up some easier pieces alongside this one though, to make sure you keep seeing your progress, and you don't get stuck or frustrated. Good luck!

And I agree with Mark C, if this is really your first piece (and I believe you on your word), then this is absolutely amazing, and you are doing very well!


Edited by Victor25 (09/27/10 03:06 AM)
_________________________
Currently working on: Perfecting the Op 2/1, studying the 27/2 last movement. Chopin Nocturne 32/2 and Posth. C#m, 'Raindrop' prelude and Etude 10/9
Repetoire: Beethoven op 2/1, 10/1(1st, 2nd), 13, 14/1, 27/1(1st, 2nd), 27/2, 28(1st, 2nd), 31/2(1st, 3rd), 49/1, 49/2, 78(1st), 79, 90, 101(1st)

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#1523420 - 09/27/10 03:09 AM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: Victor25]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19833
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Victor25
....(and I believe you on your word).....

I'll say this:
If it's true what he's saying, then people nowadays are able to do far better from scratch than anyone did in the days when I was first learning.

And I don't just mean me. ha
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"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1523468 - 09/27/10 04:37 AM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: hawgdriver]
Tubbie0075 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 544
I'd just caution that when you venture into a piece way beyond your level that you be mindful of picking up bad playing habits, especially those that will injure you in the long run. It is harder to unlearn bad habits later on.

I've learnt from my violin learning process that it is not enough (for a student) to produce a nice sound but also the way it is produced (using all the appropriate techniques/postures/breathing etc).

Good luck!

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#1523471 - 09/27/10 04:52 AM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: Tubbie0075]
octurn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/10
Posts: 89
Loc: Belgium
Tubbie is right.

For the teachers on this forum it would be easier to find out if your doing ok at this early stage if they'd be able to watch you play rather than hearing you play.
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#1523596 - 09/27/10 10:07 AM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: hawgdriver]
victor kam Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 421
Loc: Malaysia
It is really amazing if this is your first attempt at learning any piece of music. I am teaching it right now, it's a very difficult piece.
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#1523610 - 09/27/10 10:22 AM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: Mark_C]
CebuKid Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1176
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Victor25
....(and I believe you on your word).....

I'll say this:
If it's true what he's saying, then people nowadays are able to do far better from scratch than anyone did in the days when I was first learning.

And I don't just mean me. ha


Yup, I'm amazed by some of the talent that I've seen here and on YouTube. There's an absolute beginner on YT who had a very impressive repertoire after 1 year....way more than myself! ....and I'm not a true beginner either.
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Music washes away from the soul
the dust of everyday life.
- Berthold Auerbach



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#1523719 - 09/27/10 01:47 PM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: CebuKid]
hawgdriver Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 637
Loc: Denver, CO
I appreciate the comments. I think I will continue to work to bring the rest of the piece up to tempo. This takes so much work, but I've noticed that it has made it easier to approach the other pieces I am excited to learn.

I am lobbying the House Ways and Means Committee (wife) to add new piano to Christmas budget.

I apologize that it is difficult to take one at his word on the internet, but what I say is honest.

Someone here said to follow your love and passion, and that is the only way you could do this, otherwise it's too hard, even for someone with a lot of discipline. I love this piece, and after playing it a bazillion times, I love it even more. I wish I had met the piano long ago.
_________________________
Only in men's imagination does every truth find an effective and undeniable existence. Imagination, not invention, is the supreme master of art as of life. -Józef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski

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#1523747 - 09/27/10 02:36 PM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: hawgdriver]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: hawgdriver


Please take a listen and tell me if you think I should continue with my attempt at the piece, given that this is my first piece and I've spent ten months on it. Determine my trajectory, if you will. Thank you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Poa4sF5RAwo



Hi there,

I do not know this piece of music, but I can tell you that you are learning a huge amount from it. There are some real technical challenges here (parallel octaves, counterpoint, separation of melodies in the hands).

If I may make a suggestion, it would be (1) carry on doing what you are doing and (2) take apart the arpeggio section and practice it really, really slowly. You might also like to practice the normal major and minor arpeggios too, just to concentrate on the technique. Get them slow and even.
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#1523864 - 09/27/10 05:50 PM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: hawgdriver]
Mark... Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 4381
Loc: Jersey Shore
Gyro would approve...

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#1523971 - 09/27/10 09:30 PM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: hawgdriver]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19833
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: hawgdriver
...I apologize that it is difficult to take one at his word on the internet, but what I say is honest....

And in that case, I apologize that I doubted.

Assuming that what you're saying is true, and it looks like it is, please realize it wasn't anything personal toward you. It's a reaction to how unbelievably well you are playing this piece!!
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1523978 - 09/27/10 09:48 PM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: hawgdriver]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3886
Loc: New York
I am going to be brutally honest here. This is an accomplishment but it is not music. To my humble ears, this does not sound good.

It is obvious that you have what it takes: love for music and the will to work at it. You will achieve a lot more and thank yourself for it in a few years, if you went at it the right way..Put it to rest and expand your horizons. It is as if you have built a magnificent facade for a palace but you have yet to make the steps that lead to it and the foundation that will support the construct.

Having said that, I am just another jane schmoe over the internets.. You need not concern yourself with my opinion. smile

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#1523980 - 09/27/10 09:52 PM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: Mark_C]
CebuKid Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1176
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: hawgdriver
...I apologize that it is difficult to take one at his word on the internet, but what I say is honest....

And in that case, I apologize that I doubted.

Assuming that what you're saying is true, and it looks like it is, please realize it wasn't anything personal toward you. It's a reaction to how unbelievably well you are playing this piece!!


..and I of course believe you as well. You're not really "gaining" anything by making a false claim. smile Plus, it's not like you're claiming to be like this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPh53BCJQKE

Like MarkC, I'm admiring the talent (and hard work) tackling a piece like this as your first. The adult beginner on YouTube that I referred to is also amazing.
_________________________
YouTube Channel
Scott Joplin Repertoire


Music washes away from the soul
the dust of everyday life.
- Berthold Auerbach



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#1523987 - 09/27/10 10:07 PM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: Andromaque]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19833
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Andromaque
I am going to be brutally honest here. This is an accomplishment but it is not music. To my humble ears, this does not sound good.....

Some people here are tough. smile

I thought it was hugely better than you're saying.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1524010 - 09/27/10 10:51 PM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: Mark_C]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3886
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Andromaque
I am going to be brutally honest here. This is an accomplishment but it is not music. To my humble ears, this does not sound good.....

Some people here are tough. smile

I thought it was hugely better than you're saying.


You never take off your other hat smile

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#1524013 - 09/27/10 10:52 PM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: hawgdriver]
Rui725 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
Great work, I think if you can stick it out and finish it if you have the patience. But, to me, time spent in a year can be used to gain 6-7 easier (and by easier than Wanderer Fantasy, there's a whole lot to pick from) and just as beautiful pieces. Having 30+ minutes worth of very polished repertoire is also a great accomplishment as well, so don't hesitate to set this one aside for a bit and work with other music.


Edited by Rui725 (09/27/10 10:53 PM)

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#1524015 - 09/27/10 10:52 PM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: Andromaque]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19833
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Andromaque
.....You never take off your other hat smile

Funny, I thought most people here thought I was a _______. ha

(fill in the blank with whatever)
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1524042 - 09/27/10 11:45 PM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: Andromaque]
hawgdriver Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 637
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: Andromaque
I am going to be brutally honest here.


I agree, it needs a lot of work. I am a perfectionist and it is far from complete. I just want some initial feedback, and I appreciate yours. I agree with Ten Left Thumbs about the evenness of the arpeggios. It needs work. This does not offend or bother me in the least; I agree. The sound quality is also poor. We'll improve these things.

When I think it's ready I'll say it's finished. Until then, thanks to those that offer praise and constructive feedback. Cheers.
_________________________
Only in men's imagination does every truth find an effective and undeniable existence. Imagination, not invention, is the supreme master of art as of life. -Józef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski

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#1524143 - 09/28/10 07:25 AM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: Andromaque]
TrapperJohn Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 3596
Loc: Chocolatetown, USA
Originally Posted By: Andromaque
I am going to be brutally honest here. This is an accomplishment but it is not music. To my humble ears, this does not sound good.

It is obvious that you have what it takes: love for music and the will to work at it. You will achieve a lot more and thank yourself for it in a few years, if you went at it the right way..Put it to rest and expand your horizons. It is as if you have built a magnificent facade for a palace but you have yet to make the steps that lead to it and the foundation that will support the construct.

Having said that, I am just another jane schmoe over the internets.. You need not concern yourself with my opinion. smile


Well, jane schmoe, one should concern oneself with your opinion since it is a relatively sound opinion - one I agree with to a fairly large extent. While, as you say, this is a commendable accomplishment of a sort, not only is it generally not advisable to begin one's piano studies with an advanced piece such as this and to spend so much time on it - but the particular piece selected is perhaps not the most appealing or attractive from the standpoint of an enjoyable musical experience.

In this regard one might want to persue the discussion of a somewhat similar situation in this current thread in the ABF:

Are Einaudi ieces a good place to start?

JF
_________________________
Every difficulty slurred over will be a ghost to disturb your repose later on. Frederic Chopin

Current favorite bumper sticker: Wag more, bark less.

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#1524145 - 09/28/10 07:32 AM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: TrapperJohn]
JustAnotherPianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 798
Loc: United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: John Frank
but the particular piece selected is perhaps not the most appealing or attractive from the standpoint of an enjoyable musical experience.

JF



You don't like the Schubert op. 15?

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#1524204 - 09/28/10 09:35 AM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: JustAnotherPianist]
CebuKid Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1176
Originally Posted By: JustAnotherPianist
Originally Posted By: John Frank
but the particular piece selected is perhaps not the most appealing or attractive from the standpoint of an enjoyable musical experience.

JF



You don't like the Schubert op. 15?


It's a nice piece actually:

_________________________
YouTube Channel
Scott Joplin Repertoire


Music washes away from the soul
the dust of everyday life.
- Berthold Auerbach



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#1524210 - 09/28/10 09:44 AM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: hawgdriver]
Stanza Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 1458
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
My honest opinion is that it is great, given your experience, but lacking in expression and nuance. The issue that you and so many others like you face is:

What price did you pay for your achievement so far?

By this, I mean had the hours and hours you spent learning this piece been instead applied to learning theory, scales, chords and inversions, arpeggios, sight reading, trills, etc.etc., would you be better served?

Right now you are risk becoming a "one trick pony". And every new piece a grueling task.

If you have the good fortune to find a piano under you Christmas tree, please remember there are a huge number of easier interesting and charming pieces written by the masters that will help you reach you goals.
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#1524282 - 09/28/10 11:00 AM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: hawgdriver]
SAnnM AB-2001 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 2022
Loc: Canada
I agree with the posters here. This is an amazing accomplishment for 10 months of playing. That said, I agree with also learning easier pieces alongside of the more difficult ones. They give you an opportunity to use dynamics/expresssion and phrasing without 'worrying about all the notes.' I always have two challenging pieces (for me that's about a grade 8 level) and a couple of easier pieces and then some even easier short one-page gems - romantic and jazz style that I love to finish in a short period (a couple of weeks) for a real sense of accomplishment and to learn and have fun with.
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It's the journey not the destination..

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#1524335 - 09/28/10 12:05 PM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: SAnnM AB-2001]
hawgdriver Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 637
Loc: Denver, CO
Thanks again for the suggestions and feedback. I'm not satisfied with the piece, if that is not clear. I just want to evaluate my progress and potential to play it.

One thing that I'm excited about is that the exercises involved in learning this piece, such as:

major and minor chord arpeggios
diminished arpeggios
major, minor, and diminished chords with virtually every root
lots of octaves
broken octaves
broken chords
trills
chromatic scales
presentation of swing/rubato
dynamics / phrasing
(and so on, lots of good mini-drills in the context of a larger, unified work)

[these exercises] are probably similar to what I would learn if I did a building block approach, but at least now I have something to show for it--or at least with a year or two more polishing I will.

Again, I appreciate the feedback, everything except for John Frank's comment, which was...how should I put it?

"perhaps not the most appealing or attractive from the standpoint of an enjoyable *internet* experience"

Ha ha, just kidding John, you are a mean old coot but I don't mind your 'tough love'.

Cheers
_________________________
Only in men's imagination does every truth find an effective and undeniable existence. Imagination, not invention, is the supreme master of art as of life. -Józef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski

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#1524418 - 09/28/10 02:22 PM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: Stanza]
hawgdriver Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 637
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: Stanza
there are a huge number of easier interesting and charming pieces written by the masters that will help you reach you goals.


"While my plain-looking daughter may not command your desire, she is quite interesting and charming, and will bear many fine children."

I don't disagree with you, Stanza: I may be heading for a messy divorce.

I would hope that you can concede that in a piece like this, one learns a good deal about the fundamentals you mention, but in the 'applied' sense. At least I hope so, we shall see. Each of us has one ticket to this ride, and I can't get off the roller coaster I'm on right now.


Edited by hawgdriver (09/28/10 02:23 PM)
_________________________
Only in men's imagination does every truth find an effective and undeniable existence. Imagination, not invention, is the supreme master of art as of life. -Józef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski

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#1524421 - 09/28/10 02:25 PM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: hawgdriver]
Victor25 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/30/09
Posts: 1676
Loc: The Netherlands
Where would I find this daughter of yours?
_________________________
Currently working on: Perfecting the Op 2/1, studying the 27/2 last movement. Chopin Nocturne 32/2 and Posth. C#m, 'Raindrop' prelude and Etude 10/9
Repetoire: Beethoven op 2/1, 10/1(1st, 2nd), 13, 14/1, 27/1(1st, 2nd), 27/2, 28(1st, 2nd), 31/2(1st, 3rd), 49/1, 49/2, 78(1st), 79, 90, 101(1st)

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#1524594 - 09/28/10 06:57 PM Re: Some idiot is trying to play Wanderer Fantasy as 1st piece [Re: hawgdriver]
TrapperJohn Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 3596
Loc: Chocolatetown, USA
Originally Posted By: hawgdriver
...Again, I appreciate the feedback, everything except for John Frank's comment, which was...how should I put it?

"perhaps not the most appealing or attractive from the standpoint of an enjoyable *internet* experience"

Ha ha, just kidding John, you are a mean old coot but I don't mind your 'tough love'.

Cheers


Hey, I have a reputation to uphold, so mean, yes - but not that old - after all, in terms of dog years I'm only a little over 9 smile

JF
_________________________
Every difficulty slurred over will be a ghost to disturb your repose later on. Frederic Chopin

Current favorite bumper sticker: Wag more, bark less.

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Mozart sonata k.333, Mark C?
by Pover
11/23/14 09:54 AM
100 years old and music keeps her active
by Rich Galassini
11/23/14 07:45 AM
At 100 years old, she says music keeps her well
by Rich Galassini
11/23/14 07:36 AM
Chopin waltz in E minor (Op. Posth.) or Op.70/1
by Works1
11/23/14 06:22 AM
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