Went to a wonderful, first rate piano store today with my daughter. She played a Bosendorfer, August Forrester, & Schimmel Grands and two Schimmel uprights. I guess I was really nieve, but IMHO the sound that these German made pianos produced was head and shoulders above the Yamahas and Kawais we have tried. Moreover, the Schimmel uprights were far superior to the Steinways that we have tried as well. And, not to Steinway bash, only a very few of the Steinways that I have heard my daughter play have come even romotely close to the sound of the Bosendorfer or the August Forrester.

My question is, we have narrowed it down to the Schimmel 48" upright ($11.8K) vs. a sweet sweet sounding Vogel (by Schimmel), 5'4" baby grand ($17K, delivered, including tax). The Vogel has Renner action, it's made by Schimmel in a factory in Poland. The sound was certainly not what the Bosendorfer produced, but it was actually comparable in tone and "emotion" to the great Bosie grand (I had a chance to hear both in the same room, so it was sort of fair to compare). Don't get me wrong, it was much smaller and certainly not as complex a sound but basically, it didn't sound bad in comparison. And when you are being compared against one of the great pianos, (and this one was) that says something.

My question(s), finally. What do you think? Am I nuts to buy a 17K piano for an 11 year old? Is that just way too much money for a small baby grand, anyway? Is a Vogel sort of a "one off" brand and I shouldn't be spending that kind of money on it? Have any of you heard this piano, what were your impressions? Finally, is 12K a good price for a Schimmel upright?

Last point, Rachael, my daughter, loved the Vogel. She liked the Schimmel a lot too and promised me she would be very happy with it, but she loved the Vogel grand. She has an excellent ear and she is a fine player for her age. I just don't want to bury her under the weight of an expensive piano. Ultimately, I think, it's about the musician developing the skills and persuing the passion for the music, not the piano itself. And particularly when you are a kid, you don't want to take the focus off of the work and onto the instrument. That can come later when you have "arrived" at some more stabile point in your life beyond 11 years old.

What do you all think? You folks are the musicians, I am just the Dad. I thank you in advance for your advice! I really am looking for your opinions.

justwarren,

Your observations and questions are all good ones. Just so you know I listened to and played many pianos and was most happy by far with the rebuilt Steinway I bought. I also have 11 and 9 year old sons who play.

I guess the question you need to ask is what happens if your daughter decides to quit, how will you feel about your purchase? Also, the purchase of the piano could never be used against the child to get her to practice more--in short it needs to be your purchase.

I don't think that after a week or two your daughter will be thinking about the instrument itself-so I wouldn't worry about that.

Also I'm not so sure how much I'd weigh the piano she liked best--remember kids this age are trying on opinions and making lots of guesses-some more educated and better than others.

You can't avoid how it will fit in your environment, if you prefer the baby grand, it looks good in your room and the extra 5K won't hurt you then go for it. If you are stretching financially and you need to get rid of other furniture and you're not sure your child will put down the piano in favor of a violin or dance lessons, then get the upright or something cheaper.

All this being said, I spent more than 17K and alot of the decision had to do with nuturing my older son's natural talent, and the fact that our family has many generations of musical talent-so it just seemed natural for me to do this.

Hello justwarren,
Welcome to the forum. First, according to Larry Fine's supplement, 17K would be a little more than 30% off MSRP (list) which appears to be a very reasonable price (provided this is the model V-160 CH 5'4 Chippendale Polished Ebony model). Whether you should buy the Vogel for your 11 year old daughter however, can only be assessed by you. Is she serious about her playing? How long has she been studying? Does she need prodding to practice or does SHE take full responsibility for this? Only you can answer these questions and make a reasonable decision.

Finally, NO, you're not NUTS! You're obviously a kind and generous father who loves his daughter and wants to help her aspire musically. If more children had fathers like you, this planet would be a much better place.

Before you buy ANYTHING though, look to the right and scroll down to find Larry Fine's "The Piano Book" and spend the $19.95 (purchase the supplement too). Trust me - it's the BEST investment you'll ever make and like myself, you'll never regret having purchased and read it before you engage in such a major investment such as a piano (grand or otherwise).

One of the first things Larry suggests is to play as many pianos as possible before buying. A very wise piece of advice. You'll find that there are other "tier 2" pianos such as the Vogel that are worth looking at in the same general price range such as Estonia and Petrof.

And no, I'm not a piano dealer. I'm also looking to purchase my first grand piano and have been following Larry's advice every step of the way. I'll be making my decision this month and I can't emphasize enough that you first read his book, which is easy for novices to understand.

In the end, you and your daughter will have an incredible amount of fun as it's so exciting to go looking at all the pianos and playing them. Take notes, ask questions and keep us apprised of your progress.

Remember, half the fun is in the search. You'll never regret having done so, and neither will your daughter.

Best regards,
Roger

Hello JustWarren!

Nicely written explanation! Wow, where do I begin? I gues by answering your questions about the pianos mentioned. I work for a Schimmel/Vogel dealer in Massachusetts and I can fully concur with your findings! The Schimmel uprights are wonderful instruments! World-class instruments. But the Vogel (Mr. Schimmel's son-in-law and newly appointed Schimmel president, Hannus Schimmel-Vogel) has received great reviews here on Piano World as well! It is especially interesting as $17K is not a lot of money to spend on a European grand piano.

You might want to ask fellow poster John Citron (you can do a search) who owns a Vogel 177 (5'10" version) how he feels about his Vogel investment! As recently as yesterday, he continues to rave about his love for this piano.

Anyway, it is well-posted that growth on a quality grand piano will be noticed and documented as "better than on an upright". While the Schimmel vertical is a wonderful piano, I think the Vogel 5'4" is a better choice.

And yes, that's a terrific price for that piano! If it gives her goosebumps, buy THAT piano (and not one out-of-a-box)!

Paul

I think you should buy that piano before your daughter talks you into the Bosie.

Seriously, and I wouldn't necessarily advise this for the average family but given that your daughter shows significant talent and commitment, I think you should buy the grand over the upright. If your daughter sticks with the piano, as there is every indication she will, she will need the grand action sooner or later, and probably sooner than you think.

The Vogel is also a nice piano. Check out the thread that was posted yesterday (?) by John Citron, entitled something like "after 4 months I still love my piano". He has a Vogel and waxes lyrically about it.

However, I might suggest shopping around a bit more before taking the plunge. $17K is a lot of money and there are a lot of pianos you could buy in that range, such as the Estonia or Kawai RX. If this is one of the first showrooms you've visited, it's really worth your time to play other pianos and compare. You may very well come back and get the Vogel, but you might sleep easier knowing that it was the result of a thorough search.

p.s. And, no, it's not crazy to buy an expensive grand for a (talented) child. Who knows? Maybe it'll motivate you to start lessons yourself.

Not to dissent from the trend, but if I were going to spend $17k on a 5'4" Vogel, I also would make sure that I tried the 5'8" Petrof and same size Weinbach first (not to mention Bohemia) and that I also checked out the used market for a bit. This is particularly true given that you are close to NYC and Altenberg's as well. You may still prefer the Vogel, but you should make the most informed decision possible.

Happy hunting!

Jim

Just wanted to second jollyrodger's suggestion about 'The Piano Book" and add that you should pick up the 2005-2006 Supplement while you're at it.

Sounds like you're doing it right, good luck!

Alden

I agree with Jim that there might be some pleasant surprises in the used market. Maybe some unpleasant surprises too, but you never know until you look!

Perhaps the expense of the piano might serve to motivate your daughter (above & beyond the music!); certainly a very fine piano would provide additional inspiration.

Just another way of looking at it...

I think that if a piano buying prospect has a "gifted" child that falls in love with a given piano (I assume that would be the Vogel 5'4"), Dad should not hesitate and should make the decision fairly quickly.

One could spend months trying to find the ultimate piano! If, even after visiting just a handful of dealers, you stumble on your "goose-bump" instrument, why continue the search?

Warren has suggested that while it is a 'stretch" for him (but is possible), he is willing to do it for his daughter. So, why not just do it?

That's my vote!

Paul: I wish that I could agree, but I can't. We're talking about a substantial amount of money for a relatively small grand under a label (Vogel) that has only been around a few years. If I were going to stretch, I would be a heck of a lot more certain that this is the best I could do for the $.

Jim

Jim - don't forget that Vogel are built and designed by one of the biggest (and best) piano manufacturers in the world - Schimmel, and that the whole building process (though it takes place in Poland) is rigorously overseen by Schimmel. I think it would be very easy to do a lot worse than buy a piano that has the backing of such a great piano builder.

I concur with matthewpiano. The Vogel, albeit a relatively new piano brand, is built in the old and reputable Meyer (?) factory in Kalisz, Poland (a town with a long history of piano building).

The piano is also built by some of Schimmel's "Guild Craftsman"! It is constructed of Schimmel-supplied materials, including their soundboards, strings, Abel hammers, Renner actions, Delignite beach pin blocks, Kota laminate hand-pressed rim, etc.

This is surely a better option for this gifted 11-year old than one of the newest Chinese brands. Plus, she is now hooked on the classic European sound and does not want to consider any American or Asian-rim pianos.

Finally, customer service! I have learned that Warren lives just blocks away from the selling dealer, who, by the way, is one of the most knowledgeable and well-known European pianos dealers this side of the Mississippi! This dealer has been known to personally travel to Europe to hand-pick his pianos! He could do worse, eh!

Paul

I would also like to second the thought you should look at other pianos. Tier 2 or not, there are other choices in the price range you have mentioned.

At the least, you and your daughter will become more piano savvy in the process.

Paul: Of course, Warren could end up with the Vogel. However, Vogel will not disappear anytime soon, and the price is not so stunning that Warren needs to buy it immediately. What is the harm in looking? Why not see if there is a more desirable (larger) piano or better deal out there? Why not visit lovely Elizabeth, NJ? Why not check out pianomart.com?

I have always told my clients, "even if it's at another piano shop, when you play 'your piano', you will know it....and that's the piano you should buy"! Granted, Vogel will be around for a long time. But when you find "your" instrument, you may wait a long time until you find another (in your price range and one that gives you goosebumps, etc)!

Jim, I don't endorse going to different states to search for a piano (you need to buy locally for better service). I especially don't endorse going on-line (pianomart.com). In Warren's case, he is right down the street from this dealer, has shopped the other CT dealers to no avail, and will get phenominal service from this long-standing reputable European piano dealer (who happens to have the perfect piano for his daughter)!

Paul: I didn't marry the first woman that I dated, and I wouldn't buy one of the first pianos that I saw, either -- at least not without investigating other alternatives. Indeed, in purchasing a new piano, it is easier than marriage because there is usually another one available just like it. [Analogies are always dangerous and frequently fatal, the wags say.]

I suspect that, like marriage (hopefully), this is a once-in-a-lifetime decision for JustWarren. I also know that this is not a "steal of a deal" that will never be duplicated. I further know that feelings change on 2d, 3d, and 4th dates; so do feelings about pianos. I don't think that suggesting lovely Elizabeth is doing a disservice; it is part of the same metropolitan area as Westport. As far as I'm concerned, Just Warren can (and should) shop as much as time and opportunity allow -- he could go to NYC, maybe see used Schimmels and Mason and Hamlins, etc. in the NYC metro area and New England, etc. Of course, that would delay the sale from the Vogel dealer, but I think that it would better serve Warren's interests.

Jim

Go for the Vogel if your daugther loves it. I sure love mine!

John

Yes, a grand piano's action will be better than an upright piano's action, but a Schimmel 48" upright should be good enough to carry your daughter into college level piano studies.

No, it's not nuts to spend the extra $5k to go from a sufficient upright to a "better" grand piano for a child.

I look at it this way, if the objective is to develop the child's talent, then I'm quite sure that the price difference of $5k will make more of an impact if put that $5k in "piano education" (e.g., music camps, master classes, recorded music collection, live concert attendances, books, sheet music, etc.) rather than in "better piano hardware."

If the "music education" aspects are adequately funded and you still have that $5k to spare, then go ahead and get the "better hardware" if you want to look at it as "additional incentive/inspiration" for your child.

Don't confuse "better hardware" with "better education/training." A better car won't make a better driver, a better computer won't make a better computer programmer, a better frying pan won't make a better cook.

For mature adults who wants to recreationally enjoy piano playing, sure, go enjoy the better hardware, you've worked hard all your life, you've earned it. For kids who want to acquire a skill or develop a talent, I'd say allocate the resources first on education/training, then go for "better hardware."

Just my opinion. Good luck.

A really good post AXtremus and one which I agree with whole heartedly, although the general assumption that grands are 'better' than uprights maddens me.

It is, quite honestly a fallacy that all grands are superior to all uprights and its about time people focused more on the sound and feel of a piano and ignored the case it is in. I myself have a Schimmel upright, which I chose after comparison with good grands and other uprights, and it serves my needs as a professional pianist extremely well. In fact, I have always had uprights and I will never forget having a fairly light actioned Rogers when I first began studying with Marjorie Clementi (an awesome piano teacher) and taking her advice to buy something with a better action. One of the questions I asked her at the time (I was 14), was whether that meant buying a grand and her advice was to look for the right instrument, which could be either a grand or an upright but that a really high quality upright would normally be far superior to a cheaper grand.

That is when I got the Bluthner upright, which I had until I changed it for the Schimmel nearly 5 years ago. The Bluthner took me through 4 years of study with Marjorie at a very high level and 3 years following the specialist performance modules in solo playing and accompaniment with Andrew West and John Clegg as part of my BMus(Hons) degree. In my final recital I was awarded the Denis McCaldin Performance Prize and a 1st in performance (assessed by William Drabkin, Roger Bray and Neil Boynton). Since then the Schimmel has provided me with an excellent instrument on which to practice as I establish my professional career.

My reason for sharing this information is to show that it really makes very little difference whether you practice on an upright or a grand. What makes the difference is the quality of the piano, its action and its sound. I have played many pianos, both upright and grand, and in some high level professional situations. I have never had any problems adjusting to full concert instruments and have never felt practising on an upright to be a hindrance.

The quality of the Schimmel upright is such that the touch and sound completely trounce the cheaper grands, INCLUDING most of the Yamaha C series. The compromises involved in choosing one over most grands are negligible from a pianistic and musical standpoint. Do not forget, that the true concert instrument is a full size grand and that ANYTHING else is a compromise on this. Smaller grands are sanitised versions of the concert instrument and many of the examples I have played have felt and sounded unsatisfactory.

Too many people have been put off uprights by playing the cheaper examples - Kemble, Yamaha, Welmar, Kawai etc - and need to realise that the top quality ones are a completely different proposition and, in most homes, the best option.

Buying the Schimmel will NOT hold your child back in any way and I am absolutely confident that once you have it you would NEVER look back.

Matthew why did you switch from the Bluethner upright to the Schimmel upright? Many would consider that a step down.

I ask simply because I'm curious. I am the owner of a Schimmel upright. It's a nice piano but I dream of making the switch to a Bluethner one day!

In some ways the Bluthner was an even nicer instrument than the Schimmel but, at the time, I was about to move into a ground floor flat and needed a real piano with a silent option on it, so I traded the Bluthner in against the Schimmel. I wouldn't say it was really a step down - the action is better on the Schimmel than it was on my Bluthner (a 1981 Model A). The only thing I occasionally miss is the additional resonance of the Bluthner sound. Now I live in a house, if I can eventually find it in me to part with the Schimmel (which I love), there is a part of me that would love to find another Bluthner.

On that topic, does anyone know anything about the 'budget' Bluthner makes - Haessler and Irmler. Specifically their uprights. How do they compare to Bluthner branded instruments?

I apologize for playing fast and lose with that generalization. I admit it was an over simplification as I was trying to focus on the "better training v. better hardware" argument.

Regarding Haessler and Irmler, I played a Haessler upright briefly in the past, but don't recall having played any Irmler upright. As a matter of subjective impression, I think it had a rather mellow tone, deep pedal, and deep action.

I certainly agree with your argument that the training is the most important thing at this stage in the child's development. I think a few more people would do well to realise that a great piano doesn't make a great pianist but quality training and experience (plus practise and enthusiasm) can.

I might have to look for a dealer with a Haessler - sounds like my sort of piano. I do like a mellow(ish) tone for some repertoire, but would have to be convinced that I wasn't losing too much of the Schimmel's clarity and 'pearliness'.

Well, I can't say I'm entirely surprised that a dealer would not be enthusiastic about buying off of pianomart.com , but it can yield some very favorable surprises. Purchasing any used instrument is a challenge. My experience on line was a good one - while I very much wanted to purchase from a local dealer (new or used) and tried very hard to do so, I came across something attractive on line & went that route. Probably not ideal for these circumstances, but shouldn't be ruled out in others.

Ditto the comments about Larry Fine. You have some wonderful instruments you are considering.

The problem I have with buying an acoustic piano from Pianomart.com or ANY internet-advertising piano dealer is you never get to play the piano before purchasing it! What might seem a wonderful opportunity, could quickly sour if you don't like the touch, the sound and the exact condition when it arrives at your doorstep!

Granted, you could hire a technician to check it out! But 9 times out of 10, the tech is not a musician, particularly not a piano player! And how is his taste compared to yours?

I usually contend that the really GOOD used pianos remain in the livingrooms of satisfied customers. The not-so-good (or worn out) pianos are the ones that get traded-in towards a really good (or upgraded) musical instrument. Once in a great while you might stumble on a fine piano who's owner merely want a larger version! But those are truly rare!

Paul

I may add that about 14 years ago I actually purchased a Schimmel upright, but I ended up backing out of the deal due to a lost job. They make excellent pianos all around.

The price difference between the upright and the Vogel 177T was pretty slim. Therefore, this time around I went for a grand piano, which I always wanted since I started lessons nearly 37 years ago.

In between the Schimmel upright and my new piano I had a really bad PSO, which I really wanted to cut in pieces and put out for curbside pick-up on many occasions.

Now I due agree with Axtremus. The better instrument doesn't make a better musician, it's what the musician can bring out of the instrument that counts. However, there are some instruments that will go beyond being bad, and will definitely be detrimental to a serious musician since the student will interest in practicing and performing on something that is not satisfying in the beginning.

The other thing to consider to is quality. If the instrument is inexpensive to purchase, how long will it hold up to constant use?

In my case, the really bad PSO I purchased sounded and felt terrific for about a year. After that time, the action fell apart, the piano would not stay in tune, and I even broke a hammer which is something I've never done before!

After numerous tecnician visits, the cost in maintenance started to push the total cost of owenership way beyond the initial cost of the PSO in the first place! Head the old saying...You do get what you pay for. I don't care what anyone says.

John

Paul Y - I absolutely agree that the purchaser should play the piano before purchasing it. If the dealer is not just internet-based but also has a bricks-and-mortar location, it should be possible to play the instrument if you are willing to travel. In my case, I had the piano inspected, purchased a cheap flight to the dealer's location, flew out and played it, and, after some further consideration, purchased it. Had it not been possible to play the piano in person, I would not have bought it. It was not my first choice in terms of location - I would have much preferred to buy locally - but it was an unusual opportunity.

justwarren,

In Larry Fine's 2005 - 2006 Annual Supplements,
vogel 177 is only $800 more than the baby grand
you were looking at. Go for the bigger grand!

Larry Fine's 2005-2006 annual supplements ($14.90) is
extremely helpful in my piano search. So I know which pianos
are in our price range.

No, you are not nuts for getting a nice piano for your
daughter! Since your wife is a pianist, just hand over
your pocket book to your wife and let her get whatever
your daughter wants. My husband took this easy route.

Paul: Who said anything about buying a piano sight unseen? Pianomart is simply a source of advertising -- all of the usual conditions of playing a piano first, having a tech inspect it, etc. still apply.

Jim

Good morning Jim,

Pianomart.com sells pianos! They do not just "advertise". If you are intrigued by one of their instruments, you must get on a plane (?) and get to where the piano is located. Where the Hell are they anyway?

I was trying to promote buying from a "local" dealer for optimum service and convenience. I would HATE for one of my clients to purchase a piano 1500 miles away (for instance) then come to us for service!

Paul