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#152809 - 10/25/04 11:21 PM Re: Hear Piano Comparisons- Grotrian/Yamy/S&S/Baldwn/ M&H/Shigeru, & Now: Bluthner?
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3357
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Alex Hernández:
Keith,

I have followed several technicians who have not taken the time to properly assess the Bluthner hammer. They will over needle and end up with a woody or punky sound. The pianos will sound muted and shallow if this is done. [/b]
Don't you find that most pianos sound woody or punky ( one of my favorite terms ) or mute and shallow when the hammers are not properly assessed and then over needled? Or do you find this mistaken approach more likely to be taken on a Bluthner?

 Quote:
That particular model 1 sounded like a brass marching band walking over broken glass when I first met it. It was a fine piano but nothing close to what you heard on our site. [/QB]
I hope everyone pays attention here. Even a $100,000+ tier 1 concert grand doesn't sound that great until really worked over with the right approach.

 Quote:
I believe Alexander Paley to be among the greatest pianist living today. The fact that he is not a household name in the United States is a crime in my opinion. [/QB]
Agreed that he is one of the greats. Household name might be a bit of a stretch. I think the days of concert pianists being household names are gone. Now, if he could throw a football 70 yards........

 Quote:
I have heard Paley in other live recordings in better halls with better mic's and the advantage of professional recording engineers. I still think that our recording best captures the sound of the Blüthner piano. [/QB]
Your piano sounds much better than Paley's piano recorded on the Bluthner label. I would love for you to burn me a copy. I think you may owe me a recording on a Bluthner ;\)

 Quote:
I think our Blüthners were better then any other I have heard in any shop or recording. I will admit that since I prepared that piano and all of the Blüthners we carried perhaps my ego is speaking here. [/QB]
I am sure anyone unable to make it out to Gaithersburg would have been very fortunate to own one of your Bluthners. :p Even Norbert was impressed by them. \:D

 Quote:
That piano even sounded good with me playing it. \:\) [/QB]
I heard you playing Jazz at the Mason & Hamlin factory. You sounded really good!
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#152810 - 10/25/04 11:37 PM Re: Hear Piano Comparisons- Grotrian/Yamy/S&S/Baldwn/ M&H/Shigeru, & Now: Bluthner?
Alex Hernandez Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 1967
Keith,

Voicing as you know is a very personal thing. I do think many technicians hear two basic tones, mellow and bright.

I also think that most pianos in the field can't offer the same detail or definition of tone as a Blüthner.

A great piano allows this to exist. It happens when the voicer addresses the tonal development beyond the attack. The initial burst of sound is only the beggining. If a technician doesn't take a sensitive, measured approach then that opportunity is lost.

I do owe you a recording as a matter of fact.

I can't wait to try one of your Blüthners, many people I have spoken to have raved about them.
_________________________


Blüthner USA, LLC

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#152811 - 10/25/04 11:41 PM Re: Hear Piano Comparisons- Grotrian/Yamy/S&S/Baldwn/ M&H/Shigeru, & Now: Bluthner?
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3357
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Alex Hernández:

many people I have spoken to have raved [/b]
Agreed.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#152812 - 10/26/04 12:11 PM Re: Hear Piano Comparisons- Grotrian/Yamy/S&S/Baldwn/ M&H/Shigeru, & Now: Bluthner?
88Key_PianoPlayer Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: El Cajon, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by curry:
88, you're having AS delusions again. They use a medium hard pressed Renner Wurzen AA felt hammer. They don't sound at all good with rock hard hammers or too soft hammers. So unless you get one and overdose it with lacquer or another hardening solution, or needle hammers to death, you're not going to find one. [/b]
What kind of hammers would the Bosie need to sound like this piano ? (or the midrange and treble of this piano (although the last link is a Baldwin Hamilton - the first 3 are an unidentified 9-foot grand) I especially like the abundance of the higher harmonics on that 9-foot grand on its FF passages.
_________________________
Associate Member - Piano Technicians Guild
1950 (#144211) Baldwin Hamilton
1956 (#167714) Baldwin Hamilton
You can right-click my avatar for an option to view a larger version.

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#152813 - 10/26/04 01:06 PM Re: Hear Piano Comparisons- Grotrian/Yamy/S&S/Baldwn/ M&H/Shigeru, & Now: Bluthner?
Sir Lurksalot Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 1259
This record was recorded in the artist's living room on a Bluthner grand. Tracks 1 and 3 have samples:

http://khoroshev.com/pianoworks.html

According to the artist, it was recorded "direct to ADAT" (whatever that means).

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#152814 - 10/26/04 01:43 PM Re: Hear Piano Comparisons- Grotrian/Yamy/S&S/Baldwn/ M&H/Shigeru, & Now: Bluthner?
curry Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 3770
Loc: Hamilton Twp, NJ
88, any other hammers other than the type, weight, and quality that bosendorfer uses in production would not produce the sound quality associated with the Bosendorfer sound. So why bother.
_________________________
G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358

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#152815 - 10/26/04 01:54 PM Re: Hear Piano Comparisons- Grotrian/Yamy/S&S/Baldwn/ M&H/Shigeru, & Now: Bluthner?
88Key_PianoPlayer Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: El Cajon, CA
The main reason I want the Bosendorfer is the extra keys in the bass. If it wasn't for that, quite a few other pianos would probably be just fine, like Fazioli, Schimmel, Seiler, Steinway, Kawai, Yamaha, etc... I'm looking for something on which I can play this piece . I keep running out of keys on my upright .
_________________________
Associate Member - Piano Technicians Guild
1950 (#144211) Baldwin Hamilton
1956 (#167714) Baldwin Hamilton
You can right-click my avatar for an option to view a larger version.

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#152816 - 10/26/04 05:57 PM Re: Hear Piano Comparisons- Grotrian/Yamy/S&S/Baldwn/ M&H/Shigeru, & Now: Bluthner?
Jeanne W Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 1240
Loc: New England
Wow! Sir Lurks A lot - thanks so much for the soundclip!

The Bluthner in the soundclip you provided - now THAT's more like it! That sounds much more like the Bluthners I played.

Even more interesting - earlier in this thread, I had posted a link to a CD that contains solo piano works. I specifically noted that one particular track - Track #5 on Disc 1 - a piece by Mia Jiang - reminded me very much of the sound of the Bluthners I had played. And was hoping that someone might comment whether they thought the piano Jiang is playing sounded like a Bluthner, but no one did.

I do hear a distinct similarity between the piano (unidentified) that Mia Jiang is playing on Track #5 and the sound of the Bluthner on your soundclip, Sir Lurks Alot. To me the similarity is very striking.

Anybody up to make the comparison? Here are links to compare the sound of the two pianos:

Link #1: To Bluthner soundclip Sir Lurks A lot provided.
To listen, click on #3 Barlego Sample #2
http://khoroshev.com/pianoworks.html

Link #2: To unidentified piano soundclip.
To listen, click on Track #5 by Mia Jiang on Disc 1. (Make sure you're on Disc #1)

There is also a track by Ms. Jiang on Disc #2: Listen to Track #6 on Disc 2.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B...3288741-0268925

Does anyone else here think these two pianos sound similar? That the piano Jiang is playing might also be a Bluthner?

Comments, anyone?

Jeanne W

Course it's a little difficult, because we're listening to 2 different pieces of music and the soundclip Sir Lurksalot provided is being playing with much more bravado and is all over the keyboard, but try to isolate the basic tonal quality. That's what I find similar. Very *uncomplex* - very fundamental tonal quality. Both have a very distinctive, unusual in my experience, tonal quality.

There's so little color in the piano Ms. Jiang is playing. Geez. Maybe it really is a digital?? Hard to tell since the piece she's playing hardly changes in loudness.
_________________________
Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
My Piano Delivery Thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/8776.html#000000

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#152817 - 10/26/04 07:47 PM Re: Hear Piano Comparisons- Grotrian/Yamy/S&S/Baldwn/ M&H/Shigeru, & Now: Bluthner?
Grotriman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 724
Loc: New York City
So many pianos to own. So little money. So little space.
_________________________
Regards,

Grotriman

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#152818 - 10/26/04 10:24 PM Re: Hear Piano Comparisons- Grotrian/Yamy/S&S/Baldwn/ M&H/Shigeru, & Now: Bluthner?
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3357
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
Jeanne,

I would be shocked to find out that the Mia Jiang recordings are Bluthners. They don't sound like any Bluthner I have ever heard. If they are on a Bluthner, it has been compressed and electronically altered to the point that is is unrecognizable as a Bluthner. They also sound very different from Sir Lurksalot's link.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#152819 - 10/27/04 03:48 AM Re: Hear Piano Comparisons- Grotrian/Yamy/S&S/Baldwn/ M&H/Shigeru, & Now: Bluthner?
Jeanne W Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 1240
Loc: New England
Disclaimer to All: I could be way off here in thinking the piano Ms. Jiang is playing might be a Bluthner.

To me the piano, Ms. Jiang plays on Disc #2 has much more color and sounds as though it could be different than the piano she plays on the soundclip on Disc #1.

But then, I could say the same of the Bluthners heard on the same CD in Sir Lurks Alot's soundclips. The first soundclip, I'd almost guess was a diffeent piano than the piano (same Bluthner, no doubt)that is heard on the Bartok Sample #2. A lot depends on how a piano is being played and the kind of music.

I do think that if you listen in a particular way to Sir Lirks Alots soundclips of the Bluthner, that Bluthner has a quality to it that is reminiscent of the tonal quality one hears on many digital pianos.

Sir Lurks Alot's Bluthner soundclips sound much richer and much more color certainly than the first soundclip on Disc #1 by Ms. Jiang. I really could be way off thinking whatever Ms. Jiang is playing is a Bluthner, or for that matter, even acoustic. ???

But I still do hear a striking similarity between that first soundclip on Disc #1 by Ms. Jiang and Soundclip Sample #1 on the Bartok sample that is being played on a Bluthner.

If only I could find out what piano Ms. Jiang is in fact playing. (I could have pie in my face, but I'd still like to know.)

Jeanne W
_________________________
Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
My Piano Delivery Thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/8776.html#000000

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#152820 - 10/27/04 04:23 AM Re: Hear Piano Comparisons- Grotrian/Yamy/S&S/Baldwn/ M&H/Shigeru, & Now: Bluthner?
Jeanne W Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 1240
Loc: New England
Here is a soundclip to Ms. Jiangs' Water Circles CD which is where the 2 tracks on the sound samples I provided are taken from.

I have to agree with Keith. Listening to those sound samples, the limited tonal color, the limited strength of the bass, limited range of dynamics overall, it does sound to me as though Ms. Jang is playing a digital piano, not acoustic. Not a Bluthner. (Surely no one would "compress" a great sounding piano to the extent that it sounds as though it's got virtually no range of dynamics. \:\( )

But I still hear a similarity in the tonal quality. I'm not saying they sound "the same", the Bluthner clips are much more rich, dynamic, etc., what I'm trying to say is whatever piano Ms. Jang is playing sounds "similar" to the distinctive tonal quality I heard in the Bluthners I played.


http://shopping.yahoo.com/p:Water%20Circ...w,x:1,test:DFLT

Jeanne W
_________________________
Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
My Piano Delivery Thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/8776.html#000000

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#152821 - 11/06/04 07:03 PM Re: Hear Piano Comparisons- Grotrian/Yamy/S&S/Baldwn/ M&H/Shigeru, & Now: Bluthner?
Sarah Jennings Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 178
Just ran across some footage of a Bechstein in concert. A very gifted pianist and a wonderful piano...

The first two clips are definitely a Bechstein. The second one gets to the piano part immediately. Not sure what piano is used in the others:
http://www.serg.vangennip.com/www/video.html

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#152822 - 11/08/04 06:43 PM Re: Hear Piano Comparisons- Grotrian/Yamy/S&S/Baldwn/ M&H/Shigeru, & Now: Bluthner?
Jeanne W Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 1240
Loc: New England
Thanks, Sarah, for posting the clip!

Jeanne W
_________________________
Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
My Piano Delivery Thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/8776.html#000000

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