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#1527905 - 10/04/10 09:29 AM Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind)
Csillag Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/10
Posts: 249
Loc: Hungary, Europe
Hi all,

I think the Kawai CA-13 is an instrument with great potential: as the entry-level model of the CA-x3 line, it has Kawai's next-to-best keyboard action, RM3. (The only thing even better then that is RM3 with let-of simulation, used in CA-93 and MP10).

Also, it's 25% cheaper than the next model, CA63.

However, in this model, this world-class action (which is, according to many experienced players, comparable to real accustig grand pianos) is coupled with a somewhat outdated sound engine. (PHI, instead of UPHI, which is used in CA63, CA93 and MP10.)

This, by itself, would not be such a big problem, since we have a MIDI out, so we could use any other sound generation (like pianoteq or ivory), but here comes the catch: there is no line-in to feed the sound back to the speakers of the DP!

So, one has to either

A) Put up with the (relatively) sub-par sound quality, or
B) _only_ use head phones, or
C) buy an external set of amps & speakers, or
D) cough up 33% more money to get a CA63 instead.

Neither of these possibilities sound that good to me, considering that all these problems could be solved by using a line-in, which is not available.

So, here comes the question: what do you think of the technical feasibility of adding a line-in ourselves? (This would probably void the warranty, but anyway.)

Has someone seen the insides of a CA-x3 instrument?

How strongly are the sound engine and the amp integrated?

Is there an easy way to channel something else into the amp?

If this could be solved, the CA-13 would instatly appear much more attractive choice.

Thank you for your help:

Csillag

ps. I do not seek to attack, libel, offend or harm the Kawai company any way; I would only like to improve their product so that it serves my needs even better. (It is _very_ close to that I need.)

[Edit: to a degree, the same goes for the CN23, in the cheaper (plastic) RH-action range. However, the step up to CN33 (with line-in) is only about 20% in price, opposed to the 33% step from CA13 to CA63, so it's not that bad, but still...)]


Edited by Csillag (10/04/10 09:38 AM)

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#1527915 - 10/04/10 09:44 AM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: Csillag]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
I would probably do the same thing, but when you have to buy it first only to find out wether or not you can add an input yourself would be to big a risk. So I think in this respect that only an insider could give a hint to the possible 'upgradability' of the CA13 with an input. Perhaps a technically capable customer who already bought the CA13 might want to open it up and see what's in, but I doubt that's going to happen.

Ahum, James - any covered-up , non-offical, off-therecord , we won't tell nobody - advice on this ?

Thanks

J

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#1527922 - 10/04/10 09:51 AM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: Csillag]
Belger1900 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/10
Posts: 60
Well, I think Kawai is aware about the missing functions compared to the CA63. I mean it´s an entry level Piano in the CA series. If they would add all the benefits to the CA-13 there would be no need to buy a CA-63.
I would call that marketing.

Anyway, if you are looking for a simple DP without wanting the functions of the next higher model and do not need the better controlpanel just buy the CA-13. I think its a pretty good choice.

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#1527924 - 10/04/10 09:52 AM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: JFP]
Csillag Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/10
Posts: 249
Loc: Hungary, Europe
I don't think we should push James about this.
(However, it would be nice if he could arrange this minor update on the official model smile

My guess would be that our best bet about this would be some advice from an authorized Kawai DP repairer, or someone else who can legally open the case of these beasts - without killing the warranty of course.

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#1527930 - 10/04/10 09:56 AM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: Belger1900]
Csillag Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/10
Posts: 249
Loc: Hungary, Europe
Belger1900,

What we are upset about is not the luck of extra functions; that is to be expected on the entry level piano.

What really hurts us the utter lack of extensibility (and thus, future-proofness) of the device, which could have been solved on the vendor's part in a very-very small added cost. (One line-in jack. I do not even need full isolation or mixing capatibilities.)

Yes, this might be marketing, but it's evil, and we hate that.

This why we need to apply some soldering-iron - if not on the marketing director (who made this decision), then on the product.


Edited by Csillag (10/04/10 10:03 AM)

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#1527936 - 10/04/10 10:03 AM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: Csillag]
Belger1900 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/10
Posts: 60
Originally Posted By: Csillag
Belger1900,

Yes, this might be marketing, but it's evil, and we hate that.



I´m totally with you on this thumb

That´s one of the reasons I went with the CA-63/93. And finally I chose the 63 model. Even if not having the speaker system of the 93, I still think the 63 is quite ok for the given price. And I like the control panel on the left side whome

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#1527937 - 10/04/10 10:03 AM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: Csillag]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9064
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Chaps,

If you wish to own a console digital piano equipped with the 'RM3 Grand' keyboard action and line-in jacks, I strongly recommend that you purchase either the CA63 or CA93.

I'm not suggesting that such a DIY modification is impossible - indeed, I'm confident that some of the more technically oriented folks here would be glad to assist in such a project. However, as a Kawai employee, there's absolutely no way I would ever advise CA13 customers to hack apart their lovely, brand new instruments in a bid to add line-in functionality.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1527939 - 10/04/10 10:05 AM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: Belger1900]
Csillag Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/10
Posts: 249
Loc: Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: Belger1900
Originally Posted By: Csillag
Belger1900,

Yes, this might be marketing, but it's evil, and we hate that.



I´m totally with you on this thumb

That´s one of the reasons I went with the CA-63/93. And finally I chose the 63 model.


That's good for you, but for me,
- I really-really can't afford that
- I am not sure I am comfortable rewarding an obviously evil marketing gimmick by giving them _more_ money. (That would not really help getting their minds straight, now would it?)

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#1527943 - 10/04/10 10:09 AM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: Csillag]
kishonti Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 68
If you're upset about anything in your future piano, you should not buy it.

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#1527945 - 10/04/10 10:12 AM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: Kawai James]
Csillag Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/10
Posts: 249
Loc: Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Chaps, [...]

However, as a Kawai employee, there's absolutely no way I would ever advise CA13 customers to hack apart their lovely, brand new instruments [...]


Yeah, James, we completely understand that.

However, there are two things you could do about this:

- Convey our feelings to upper management that this decision (no line-in on CA13) turns some serous custumers away from the CA-line, towards the cheaper CN33, or maybe Roland.

- If you see either a revised model (with added line-in) or a midi-controller-only version a real possibility in the foreseeable future, please give us some hope; I might delay my purchase then.

Best wishes:

Csillag

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#1527953 - 10/04/10 10:27 AM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: kishonti]
Csillag Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/10
Posts: 249
Loc: Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: kishonti
If you're upset about anything in your future piano, you should not buy it.


The problem is that _every_ vendor makes decisions that we (or at least some of us) don't like, so boycotting them all is not a real opinion if one needs to buy a DP.

But still, I'm not going to buy an intentionally crippled products.

(However, circumventing the articifial limitations and thus liberating them is also fun...)

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#1527956 - 10/04/10 10:33 AM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: Csillag]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Csillag
But still, I'm not going to buy an intentionally crippled products.

Microscopic sample memory is the real crippler IMO.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1527958 - 10/04/10 10:36 AM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: dewster]
Csillag Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/10
Posts: 249
Loc: Hungary, Europe
Who cares if you can (progressively) replace it with anything else, whatever you like, as new stuff comes around?

(Ivory II now, then maybe, pianoteq 4 two years later, then something else...)

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#1527964 - 10/04/10 10:44 AM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: dewster]
Csillag Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/10
Posts: 249
Loc: Hungary, Europe
I mean, if they, for whatever reason, do not intend to compete seriously in the sound modeling field (which would involve adding more memory and CPU power), then it's their own decisions; there are others coming up.

This would not be fatal, if we could freely replace their (technologically obsolete) sound engines.

And, for most products, this works OK; all we need is MIDI and line-in. They really should not take these away...

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#1527967 - 10/04/10 10:56 AM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: Csillag]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Csillag
Who cares if you can (progressively) replace it with anything else, whatever you like, as new stuff comes around?

I need to make a car with a great steering wheel, and then convince consumers to replace the $10k lawnmower engine under the hood on their own dime.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1528016 - 10/04/10 12:02 PM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: Csillag]
kishonti Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 68
Csillag, if I were you (living in Hungary like me), I wouldn't touch Kawai because there's no secondary market for Kawai here and the lone shop in the whole country makes me a bit nervous.
I would buy Roland, Yamaha or Casio (in this order).

Roland HP302 is a good and nice looking/sounding instrument (you can get it for HUF 430000 with a bit of haggling).
Roland FP7F is even better for a bit more (HUF 470000) without the nice body.
For HUF 500000 you could get an HP305 as well with nicer speakers and "ivory feel".

If you don't want to spend that much I would buy Yamaha YDP161 (HUF 250000). More expensive Yamahas will drop in price a lot after January. These Yamahas have good secondary market.

Casio might be even cheaper but the secondary market is not so good if you'd later upgrade.

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#1528033 - 10/04/10 12:43 PM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: Csillag]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: Csillag
Hi all,

I think the Kawai CA-13 is an instrument with great potential: ....
[Edit: to a degree, the same goes for the CN23, in the cheaper (plastic) RH-action range. However, the step up to CN33 (with line-in) is only about 20% in price, opposed to the 33% step from CA13 to CA63, so it's not that bad, but still...)]


Technically the best solution is to buy external speakers and amp. If you are going to go through all the trouble to use MIDI to drive software in a computer why waste that effort and expense on a DP's internal speakers. they are not that good.

OK, if you did want to add a line in to a DP there are two ways to do that. (1) you are lucky and find the spot inside the piano before the power amp and tap into it there. The cost would be only a pair of switching jacks and wire, under $10 total. But in a highly integrated electronic system this may be hard to do, or (2) Just use the internal speakers and drive them with another amp that you install either inside or on the back of the piano. This is technically very easy as you don't even have to look at the electronics. But again why use a $1,000 computer and $400 worth of software to drive a $10 speaker? Kind of a waste.

Don't buy the better piano because of its line-in jack. Buy it for the key action and sound.

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#1528041 - 10/04/10 12:55 PM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: Csillag]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3802
Loc: North Carolina
That's exactly right ... "Why use a $1000 computer and $400 worth of software to drive a $10 speaker? Kind of a waste."

Actually, it could be a $500 computer and $100 software. But the point remains valid.

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#1528058 - 10/04/10 01:22 PM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: ChrisA]
Csillag Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/10
Posts: 249
Loc: Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: ChrisA
[quote=Csillag]But again why use a $1,000 computer and $400 worth of software to drive a $10 speaker? Kind of a waste.


Maybe I already have the computer (no extra cost here), the software is about 100 EUR (pianoteq play), and the piano case looks much better then a bunch of external amps/speakers.

Quote:

Don't buy the better piano because of its line-in jack. Buy it for the key action and sound.


That's exactly the point; I really don't need all that, because
- the action is already perfect at this point (except the
let-off)
- the sound _is_ better up on the model list, but eventually, it's bound to be obsoleted, too, so the added value won't last.

So, all I need is my line-in. (Or I could give up on the internal amp&sound, but then I am only getting a midi controller, and for that, both the size and price is fat.)

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#1528092 - 10/04/10 02:26 PM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: Csillag]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
I believe it is a silly idea to buy a new device with the intention to void warranty and "modding" it.
Yes I have done this but I was not aware about the problems before buying.
It needed more than 2 months until I knowed better.
If I had known the pedal behaviour then I had not bought for sure.
If I had exactly and proofable known the reason for the disk problems than I had insisted in warranty repair or exchange. Ok after I "repaired" this, I know the reason, but now its too late. (It is a constructional problem)
And if I would have been a little more experienced with keyboards and repetition than I had seen that this keyboard is very good for fingertraining, but not so good for my untrained fingers and not so good for very soft played repetitions. I was not aware about that.

Now to the technical stuff: The CA13 has an external power supply and most probably that is a switched supply. This could give hard-to solve problems when another grounded sound source is connected by modification. The power supply is probably not made for this and additional problems and costs might arise.

The pedal has only 8 steps. Probably it is better than my pedal, but probably even this does not get the best out of pianoteq, synthogy or galaxy.

It the money is not there for a CA 63, then the CN33 would be a much better choice. It has all features needed, Lineout/in, Halfpedal (I understand this as continuous pedal, please correct me James, if wrong), Ivory touch and even escapement simulation. And it costs less.

Just my 2 pence.

Peter




Edited by hpeterh (10/04/10 02:32 PM)
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1528099 - 10/04/10 02:39 PM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: kishonti]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: kishonti
Csillag, if I were you (living in Hungary like me), I wouldn't touch Kawai because there's no secondary market for Kawai here and the lone shop in the whole country makes me a bit nervous.
I would buy Roland, Yamaha or Casio (in this order).


For those that like to have the latest technology and "trade in" by buying new models when they come out while selling theirs on ebay, marktplaats, etc. this is a very valid consideration.

If the dp market continues at the accelerated rate of change it has been presenting us with lately, three years is about as long as one is going to want to hold an instrument anyway. Pity if you are stuck with what you have because it is impossible to sell it for a decent price ( or at all ) on the used market.

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#1528109 - 10/04/10 02:56 PM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: Csillag]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3802
Loc: North Carolina
I agree that the piano would look better without an external sound system. But if you care about sound quality, the internal speakers won't cut it.

No $500 piano will do. Nor will any $1000 piano. Nor $2000. Nor $3000.

I've not seen anything under $5000 with an acceptable internal sound system. (That was an RG-1, available for $5000, or $7000 list.)

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#1528273 - 10/04/10 09:28 PM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: Csillag]
AldoEsplay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 69
Csillag, I understand that the lack of line-in on the CA13 is a deal-breaker for you. Unfortunately, In order to differentiate the CA13 from the CA63, Kawai has to make decisions on which features to keep. The market segment that the CA13 targets would rarely have any use for a line-in, so it was a logical omission from the feature set.

The CA13 and CA63 are very different products. Line-in is hardly the differentiator for most. Half the polyphony. A lessor sound engine. Fewer effects options. Half as many woofers (and slightly smaller at that). 15W amplifier versus 50W. A lesser song recorder. And on the plus side, 75% of the weight and 75% of the cost.

For a typical consumer, these are the differentiators. They're things that someone who doesn't need flexibility and expandability (and isn't looking for the best sound money can buy) would be happy to save the money and not get.

The line-in is a peculiar tradeoff compared to these others, but it likely simplifies the manufacturing and engineering of the piano. It means there's no need for a separate volume control for the external sound source (or at least a selector switch for internal/external), no need to decide if you want to give the option of mixing external and internal sound, etc. No need for testing, and poke-yoke. This isn't a trivial omission. If it was simpler to leave it from an engineering point of view, they would have. I'm sure Kawai didn't omit it to differentiate the product.

It's nice that it has MIDI capability at all. Seems this is a more complex thing than line-in. And not your typical consumer thing. But I imagine that there's a decent market that would use it as a MIDI controller. It's hard to beat that action at that (or any) price point.

Certainly not ideal for your needs, and I understand how frustrating it is to see something that almost perfectly fits your needs and is missing a minor but critical feature. I'd say buy it and use it until you're ready to upgrade. Then void the warranty if it hasn't expired and hack it. Or just buy a Roland FP-7F as soon as they're available. I understand that the PHAIII action is very similar to the RM3 action.

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#1528437 - 10/05/10 05:35 AM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: Csillag]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
I understand that they left out line in.
I dont understand why they implemented the pedal as an 8 step pedal.
Just now, where almost all softwarepianos that are released in new versions will support continuous pedal...
Obviously they dont watch the trends and the competition or they dont want to sell this model.
;-)

Probably the best modding idea is buy this and buy a Casio PX 130, use the keyboard, but replace the sensors and the electronics *g*


Edited by hpeterh (10/05/10 05:49 AM)
_________________________
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#1528438 - 10/05/10 05:43 AM Re: Q: Manually adding a Line-in to DPs? (CA-13 comes to mind) [Re: Csillag]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
...or they are aiming at different market segments.

If you look at the emphasis placed, especially on the US site, on marketing even the top of the line CA93 as a piano to do first year Alfred and Czerny on and play as a kind of player piano with 200 songs and the CA18/CA13 being sold as a purist/simplicity instrument for those who just want to practice piano on the most realistic digital keyboard, they seem to be going after the "start to learn piano on a keyboard that satisfies the piano teacher as being adequate but allows the kid to study with headphones to keep peace in the family while spending a fraction of the cost of an entry level acoustic upright" market.

That is a much different segment to the obsessive gear freaks frequenting this board.

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