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#1526952 - 10/02/10 05:20 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: Kawai James]
FishTako Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/30/10
Posts: 14
Loc: California, USA
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
FishTako,

Thank you for posting your experiences - it's clear that you are torn between the HP-307 and CA93. However, without wishing to complicate matters further, have you considered the LX-10F (HP-307 with partially ebony polish cabinet and improved speakers)?

I do not know why two different CA63 instruments should not sound identical, especially after performing a factory reset - were you listening using headphones, or was this the speaker output?

Quote:
I played on both a CP-1 and a CP308 (has the same key action so I'm told). I dislike the action on both.


This is not quite correct. The CP1/CP5 utilise a new action called 'NW Stage', which is ungraded (all 88 keys are the same weight) and arguably geared towards electric piano playing. The CLPS-308 however does use the 'NW' keyboard action, which should be the same as the CLP370/CLP380.

Anyway, good luck finalising your decision! Both the Roland and Kawai are superb digital pianos, so I'm confident that you will be very happy with either instrument.

Cheers,
James
x


Thank you for the clarifications on the CP1 and CLPS-308. With all the keyboards out there, it gets hard to keep them all straight and organized in your head!

I did have a brief chance to try the LX-10F but the salesperson mentioned it had the same speaker set up as the HP 307 so I didn't really consider it given that the finish is not a factor for me.

In regards to the differing CA63s, I did notice the sound difference both with speakers and headphones which is why I thought it may have to do with sensitivity on a few keys. My mom had a similar impression. She didn't like the first CA63 and when we went to the second, she was surprised when I told her it was the same model she played earlier.

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#1526955 - 10/02/10 05:23 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: TADutchman]
FishTako Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/30/10
Posts: 14
Loc: California, USA
Originally Posted By: TADutchman
Originally Posted By: FishTako

Sound w/Headphones:
HP 307 7.5 out of 10
CA-93/CA-63 7 out of 10

Sound (built in speakers)
CA-93 8 out of 10
HP 307 7 out of 10
CA-63 6.5 out of 10

Hi FishTako,
I respect your personal comparison, opinion and preferences related to the factory Concert Grand sounds in single voice mode. whistle

Now, based on this, let's take the next step in boosting sound quality and dynamics by entering the advanced dual voice mode for acoustic piano voices (CA93/CA63 only): cool

'Enhancing the default settings of Kawai CA63 and CA93 digital piano'
http://www.attacca.eu/images/settings_CA63_93.pdf


Thanks for the link. It looks like you've done an impressive amount of work sampling with the dual layered sound feature. I have to admit I didn't play with that much when at the store and will likely need to make another test run to finalize my decision.

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#1527207 - 10/03/10 02:32 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: FishTako]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: FishTako
Thanks for the link. It looks like you've done an impressive amount of work sampling with the dual layered sound feature.

You're welcome, thanks for your thoughts. thumb

The CA93/CA63's sound shaping potential is huge; the list of different piano and other timbres will keep on growing, also based on user/owner input. You're invited to post your related insights here: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post1448603
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#1527218 - 10/03/10 03:31 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: FishTako]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: FishTako

I did have a brief chance to try the LX-10F but the salesperson mentioned it had the same speaker set up as the HP 307 so I didn't really consider it given that the finish is not a factor for me.


Actually the "speaker set up" is not the same in the LX-10F and the HP-307 as you or the "professional salesperson" could see by simply examining the actual specifications.

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=1076#
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=1055

The LX-10F has six speakers compared to the four of the HP-307 and due to placement of some in the upper cabinet of the "upright" they also give a more realistic and defined sound projection on the LX-10F.

The LX-10F not only has a different finish but a much different appearing, stark, modern, upright piano design look including having a proper soft-fall keyboard cover rather than a flimsy, sloping slidey thing as on the HP-307 and Kawai CA-63. It also has an extra wide and deep music desk when open reminiscent of a grand piano or very high end upright.

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#1527242 - 10/03/10 05:35 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Is that LX-10F the same model that's being advertised together with a separate Yamaha subwoofer (if I recall correctly)?
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#1527247 - 10/03/10 06:05 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: TADutchman]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: TADutchman
Is that LX-10F the same model that's being advertised together with a separate Yamaha subwoofer (if I recall correctly)?


Yes. By one of those American websites that creates discounted bundles for lots of what they sell including the LX-10F but that apparently don't think that the Kawai CA cabinet pianos are worth selling at all.

http://kraftmusic.com/catalog/keyboards/weightedactionkeyboards/8081
http://kraftmusic.com/catalog/keyboards/weightedactionkeyboards/index.asp?brand=27


Edited by theJourney (10/03/10 06:11 AM)

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#1527851 - 10/04/10 07:29 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread, right? grin
http://wn.com/Kawai_part1
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#1527860 - 10/04/10 07:58 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: TADutchman]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany

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1929 Galaxy Bl├╝thner Baby Grand
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#1527874 - 10/04/10 08:30 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
...the Roland LX10F is double the price than a KAWAI CA63, and even 1.200 Euro more expensive than a Kawai CA93. You have to decide for yourself if this is worth it and you have the extra money available... an Alternative would be the (not yet released) successor of the KAWAI CA111.
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#1527877 - 10/04/10 08:42 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: hpeterh]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Especially that second video footage is very funny, hpeterh! shocked laugh grin

Can't resist: I do wonder whether Kawai is paying their employees enough...
... if you feed'em peanuts, you get monkeys. wink (no pun intended)
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#1527931 - 10/04/10 09:57 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: mucci]
Belger1900 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/10
Posts: 60
Originally Posted By: mucci
...an Alternative would be the (not yet released) successor of the KAWAI CA111.


Where did you get that information?? Sounds too good to be true. A new CA-111 with the RM-3 Keyboard shocked

By the way, speaking of speaker systems. Do the speakers need some time to "run in" like headphones do??

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#1527934 - 10/04/10 10:01 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: Belger1900]
Csillag Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/10
Posts: 249
Loc: Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: Belger1900
Originally Posted By: mucci
...an Alternative would be the (not yet released) successor of the KAWAI CA111.


Where did you get that information?? Sounds too good to be true. A new CA-111 with the RM-3 Keyboard shocked


Kawai James mentioned that he would _hope_ that there would be such instument once. Please do not read more into this than what's intended; he specifically stated that currenty there is no such product in the works; it's not in any way announced, maybe not even decided on, or planned at all.

It's just a logical next step, which he would love to see.

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#1527972 - 10/04/10 11:03 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: Csillag]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: Csillag

It's just a logical next step, which he would love to see.


This is exactly what I intended to say!
Sorry it was not my intention to cause any confusion.
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<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1527985 - 10/04/10 11:16 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: mucci]
Csillag Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/10
Posts: 249
Loc: Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: mucci
Originally Posted By: Csillag

It's just a logical next step, which he would love to see.


This is exactly what I intended to say!
Sorry it was not my intention to cause any confusion.


And it was not my intent to imply that your words caused confusion: I just wanted to be extra-careful not to give something into Kawai James's mouth which he did not say.

(He always insists that it's not his decision to announce new models; I would hate to see him reprimanded by his bosses based on rumors spreading on the forums, especially when he is always careful not to say more than allowed to. So we should also take care to quote him accurately.)


Edited by Csillag (10/04/10 11:17 AM)

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#1527993 - 10/04/10 11:26 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: mucci]
MarcoM Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 246
Originally Posted By: mucci
...the Roland LX10F is double the price than a KAWAI CA63, and even 1.200 Euro more expensive than a Kawai CA93. You have to decide for yourself if this is worth it and you have the extra money available...


it really depends from where you live: over here the street prices of Kawai digitals are a lot higher (in MSRP % terms) than Roland's, it really depends from your local stores. Of course this is not applicable in Europe given Thomann etc.

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#1528094 - 10/04/10 02:28 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: mucci]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: mucci
...the Roland LX10F is double the price than a KAWAI CA63, and even 1.200 Euro more expensive than a Kawai CA93. You have to decide for yourself if this is worth it and you have the extra money available... an Alternative would be the (not yet released) successor of the KAWAI CA111.


A competitively priced successor to the CA111 would be very interesting. It is a real cabinet compared to the LX-10F.

When comparing prices, you really need to compare actual quotes for the instruments. No one pays list price ( I hope !)

The best quotes I have for the two instruments are:

LX-10F 3300,
CA93 2960,

making the difference in price only 340 which is a small price to pay to have an instrument with a nice and realistic piano sound that doesn't require you to buy a PC and a software package like Pianoteq or Galaxy like we see from various of the owners of the Kawai instruments posting here which easily could add 500 euros or more to the price of the CA93.


Edited by theJourney (10/04/10 02:30 PM)

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#1528141 - 10/04/10 03:57 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Hahaha, almost clever, you seem to be somewhat frustrated, the Journey. Is Kawai selling too many products in 2010 or what is it? It could be even more if they had proper marketing like Roland or Yamaha, right? grin wink

Seriously, whether you or me like it or not, these hardware products are quite close competitors in performance. An interesting addition, which you noticed before about the LX-10F, is: "By the way, it is interesting that Kraft is suggesting to bundle an expensive Yamaha sub-woofer with the piano...don't see any retailers of the Kawai CA93 suggesting that the instrument needs more support in the bass department."
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#1528187 - 10/04/10 05:19 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Well, to be honest I don't see any dealers other than this one US company (that loves to put together big bundles of stuff with high margins to try to make better deals) doing so.

I agree though that it is interesting. Not quite as interesting as the fact that almost no dealers around these parts are choosing to sell the Kawai instruments full stop, with or without an expensive sub-woofer...

By the way, what is the frequency response on your CA93 transducer driven soundboard compared to the Yamaha subwoofer? You might want to consider getting an HS10W yourself. smile

Have finally found a dealer within theoretical striking distance that has a HP-307, LX-10F, CA93, CA63 and K5ATX all on the floor for comparison. Now just to find the moment to spend a whole day journeying with my trusty Sennheisers to the German border...



Edited by theJourney (10/04/10 05:20 PM)

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#1528193 - 10/04/10 05:39 PM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
By the way, check out the new Tom & Sean TV show on the Kawai US site...Tom's southern articulation is pretty hard to follow and Sean looks like he must have really tied one on the night before at the local Irish Pub before the video was filmed, but they have joined the video generation.

http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/CA_2010/ca93_demovid-overview-1.html

Can't wait to see what our German friends at Kawai Europe come up with as they in turn re-invent the wheel...

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#1528329 - 10/05/10 12:09 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4332
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: theJourney
By the way, check out the new Tom & Sean TV show on the Kawai US site...Tom's southern articulation is pretty hard to follow and Sean looks like he must have really tied one on the night before at the local Irish Pub before the video was filmed, but they have joined the video generation.

I think the baggy eyes are a genetic thing with Sean, and Tom's accent doesn't sound at too pronounced to me, though I spent much of my formative youth in the south, so I'm probably rather immune.

But I can't tell much difference between the three "different" pianos in the demo. And the harpsichord sounds kind of thin. And the strings sound kind of lame.

Not a lot to get excited over lately it seems.
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#1528372 - 10/05/10 02:26 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: dewster]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: dewster
But I can't tell much difference between the three "different" pianos in the demo.

I noticed the same, quite a lame playback i.m.h.o. (and I'm not referring to the MP3 decoder); they could also use some custom settings in dual voice mode, demonstrating the Virtual Technician in action. wink whistle

Slightly better recordings are these ones (up to 1080p):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOJ8fmLVbUk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01K7KNse1dc&feature=related



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#1528391 - 10/05/10 03:23 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Have finally found a dealer within theoretical striking distance that has a HP-307, LX-10F, CA93, CA63 and K5ATX all on the floor for comparison. Now just to find the moment to spend a whole day journeying with my trusty Sennheisers to the German border...

Well, that's nothing new. By the way, I had a talk with the owner of Vriese Music Palace (Doetinchem) somewhere back in February this year. He had visited the Winter NAMM and played the CA93 over there, which he described in his experience as very exciting and if he had to compare it with something, the AvantGrand came to mind. Send him my regards, will you?
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#1528396 - 10/05/10 03:31 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: TADutchman]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: TADutchman
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Have finally found a dealer within theoretical striking distance that has a HP-307, LX-10F, CA93, CA63 and K5ATX all on the floor for comparison. Now just to find the moment to spend a whole day journeying with my trusty Sennheisers to the German border...

Well, that's nothing new. By the way, I had a talk with the owner of Vriese Music Palace (Doetinchem) somewhere back in February this year. He had visited the Winter NAMM and played the CA93 over there, which he described in his experience as very exciting and if he had to compare it with something, the AvantGrand came to mind. Send him my regards, will you?

thumb

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#1528401 - 10/05/10 03:41 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8844
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
...and if the store stocks Yamaha instruments, may I also suggest you take a very good look at the sales display models for both the 'NW' and 'RM3 Grand' actions.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1528487 - 10/05/10 08:19 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
theJourney, I'm really looking forward to your review after the visit, although, considering your recent comments about KAWAI in this and other threads, it doesn't make me confident that the review will be unbiased... but let's see! wink
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#1528494 - 10/05/10 08:29 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Biased? Yeah, I suppose I am, Kawaien, er, um mucci.
After all: Kawai is the only brand of real piano I own:

A day doesn't go by that I don't play Kawai...

However, just because a manufacturer builds IMO one of the best and best value real acoustic pianos on the market, doesn't mean that they automatically also build the best or best value fake pianos. I hope they all (Yamaha, Roland, Kawai, Korg, Casio, et al) keep pushing the envelope and competing earnestly so that we all can enjoy the benefits of improved realism and utility!

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#1528501 - 10/05/10 08:42 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
LarryShone Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 770
Loc: Darlington, UK
Had a look at that AvantGrand, and while I admire the technology I'm not sure I see the point of it! I mean its the size of a grand and sounds like a grand, so why not get an acoustic grand! Unfortunately I can't hear how it sounds as our sound card has gone belly up-summat to do with the AC97 doo dah.
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Yamaha PSR225-I NEED A PIANO wink

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#1528539 - 10/05/10 10:01 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: theJourney
However, just because a manufacturer builds IMO one of the best and best value real acoustic pianos on the market, doesn't mean that they automatically also build the best or best value fake pianos.


I never ever claimed that. Or what is your point? I don't get it.

Originally Posted By: theJourney

I hope they all (Yamaha, Roland, Kawai, Korg, Casio, et al) keep pushing the envelope and competing earnestly so that we all can enjoy the benefits of improved realism and utility!


Any signs that this is not the case? You're the one that accuses (or at least denotes) namely KAWAI to do needless features (like wooden keys) just for marketing reasons, and, on the other side, purposely omit features from cheaper models, again just for marketing purposes (which is obviously something that all brands do).

Even though you claim you're playing on an acoustic KAWAI grand, I somehow have the feeling, that there must have been a special experience that keeps you so distant from KAWAI DPs. I have no idea what this might be... maybe some bad experience with specific salespersons in the past, or just the plain fact that there is no possibility to try and purchase a KAWAI DP nearby, or just the sheer joy of arguing and getting replies from alleged KAWAI fanboys, who knows. Anyway, as Kawai James has stated on several occasions (or at least similar to his statement) - it's always a pleasure to read your posts (and to be amused by them since most of them meet my expectations).

wink
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#1528551 - 10/05/10 10:27 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: mucci]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: mucci
Originally Posted By: theJourney
However, just because a manufacturer builds IMO one of the best and best value real acoustic pianos on the market, doesn't mean that they automatically also build the best or best value fake pianos.


I never ever claimed that. Or what is your point? I don't get it.

Originally Posted By: theJourney

I hope they all (Yamaha, Roland, Kawai, Korg, Casio, et al) keep pushing the envelope and competing earnestly so that we all can enjoy the benefits of improved realism and utility!


Any signs that this is not the case? You're the one that accuses (or at least denotes) namely KAWAI to do needless features (like wooden keys) just for marketing reasons, and, on the other side, purposely omit features from cheaper models, again just for marketing purposes (which is obviously something that all brands do).

Even though you claim you're playing on an acoustic KAWAI grand, I somehow have the feeling, that there must have been a special experience that keeps you so distant from KAWAI DPs. I have no idea what this might be... maybe some bad experience with specific salespersons in the past, or just the plain fact that there is no possibility to try and purchase a KAWAI DP nearby, or just the sheer joy of arguing and getting replies from alleged KAWAI fanboys, who knows. Anyway, as Kawai James has stated on several occasions (or at least similar to his statement) - it's always a pleasure to read your posts (and to be amused by them since most of them meet my expectations).

wink


Still have that aggressive, pro-Kawai chip on your shoulder, eh? You apparently can't imagine anyone having legitimate preferences or judgement that don't match your own, therefore accusing others of traumas or bias and making false claims and then making veiled personal attacks against them. Not very polite, if I might say so, and certainly a violation of the terms of service of pianoworld.

You really should try to keep an open mind, my friend, while at the same time not taking everything so personally. It is not acceptable to constantly make arguments against the man instead of the subject matter.

Speaking of subject matter, have you tried TADutchman's promising sounding virtual piano settings or are you still using pianoteq layers to get the sound you are looking for out of your new CA63?


Edited by theJourney (10/05/10 10:31 AM)

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#1528568 - 10/05/10 11:02 AM Re: The "Official" Top of Line Digital Piano Playoff Thread [Re: theJourney]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
I don't want to get involved in this ongoing quarrel, but I just imagine you guys looking like this, making it so much more enjoyable to watch!!! laugh wink




I must admit that a to-the-point answer to this question would be very interesting though (not really important):
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Speaking of subject matter, have you tried TADutchman's promising sounding virtual piano settings or are you still using pianoteq layers to get the sound you are looking for out of your new CA63?
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