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#1530846 - 10/08/10 09:58 AM Strange sound in Kawai CA-63?
Jose Luis Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/03/10
Posts: 8
Loc: DE
Hello to everybody!

I have just received my new Kawai CA-63 and I have noticed something with the sound which I do not like at all.

When you play any note in "forte" contained in the first (approx) 2/3 of the whole keyboard starting from the bass, you hear at first the sound of the tone and then, when the sound is decaying you hear a vibration noise like a window does when for example the music is too loud. This sound decays too. I could imagine, this is maybe the string of the piano which after producing the main sound, continues vibrating but offering more clearly this "residual" noise, rather than the tone itself. Obviously, this is especially audible by using the headphones. This sounds to me not beautiful at all... I have immediately phoned my dealer. By telephone was not audible for him but he means, this is not a defect but is the recording itself.

I just would like to know from the Kawai CA-63 owners if they can hear the same vibration noise as I described before. If yes, how "true" is this sound? I have searched as crazy in this forum but exacly this problem has not yet been reported.

Theoretically, if this is not a defect, the same sound should be audible with headphones in the CA-93... Have CA-93 owners something similar?

I am a little bit confused now. I was thinking for a long time which DP to buy, was also several times in the store to try the different models and read a lot in this forum. I slightly tendet to Kawai instead of Yamaha because I prefered the desing and touch of the CA-models. Regarding sound, I heard the obvious difference between a Kawai and a Yamaha but not this "extra" sound characteristic. Now I do not know if I should reconsider which DP to buy, if this sound is keeping in all Kawai DPs.

I please ask you to give me your feedback about your CA-63/CA-93 sound and your opinion about this "story"

Thank you very much!


JL


PS. Sorry for the orthographic/grammatical errors. I am not an english native speaker.

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#1530898 - 10/08/10 11:05 AM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Jose Luis]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Can you record the sound and post an MP3 file, perhaps a scale played slowly. I don't think anyone can have an opinion on this unless they are able to hear what you do.


Sometimes this is mechanical, caused by something like a loose part inside but if you hear it in headphones this is not the case


Edited by ChrisA (10/08/10 11:05 AM)

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#1530963 - 10/08/10 12:25 PM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Jose Luis]
Jose Luis Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/03/10
Posts: 8
Loc: DE
Hello ChrisA!

Thank you very much for your fast answer and hopefully fruitful help!

I have uploaded in the web two MP3 files... By playing them I have noticed that actually the metallic-string-vibrating sound can be heard a just immediately after the main loud sound has been produced. Then it stops and just the decaying tone can be heard. Try to listen carefully just at the very beginning of the tone and you will hear this light vibration which makes the tone sound more "unpure" or unclear (to my ears)(much more appreciable on headphones of course). What I have also discovered is that not all tones in the described 2/3 of the keyboard have this vibration sound, what seems strange to me...

http://www.mediafire.com/?p1ci9h5e1c4wvvb

http://www.mediafire.com/?vn07lo78vi4rb48

I hope, the links work! :-)

Thank you very much for your help!


JL

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#1530974 - 10/08/10 12:48 PM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Jose Luis]
Jose Luis Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/03/10
Posts: 8
Loc: DE
Hi!

I have just saved another file where the vibration might be in my opinion more audible:

http://www.mediafire.com/?tof942aer61xk8r

Thanks!


JL

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#1530983 - 10/08/10 01:03 PM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Jose Luis]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4264
Loc: Northern NJ
I listened to "MP3 Song 04.MP3" and I think I can hear what you are talking about. A thin sounding buzz that lasts for several seconds after the attack. I guess it could be longitudinal string modes in the original acoustic piano, but it sounds more electronic to me, like aliasing.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1531021 - 10/08/10 01:57 PM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Jose Luis]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: Jose Luis
Hi!

I have just saved another file where the vibration might be in my opinion more audible:


I have no decent audio playback here. I'll listen later. But A question, how was this recorded? From Line Out jacks?

Of course none of use know exactly how Kawai's engineers create the samples but I think Kawai does a considerable amount of "Processing" to the audio before it goes into the piano's memory. This could explain a abrupt change in tone. The piano may use a different method of sound generation for attack and sustain.

It could also be that you don't like the sound of a Kawai grand piano especially when it is close mic'd as it would have been when it was sampled.

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#1531027 - 10/08/10 02:05 PM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Jose Luis]
spanishbuddha Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2232
Loc: UK
Does it reduce or disappear if you turn off string and damper resonance, or whatever settings are available on the CA63?

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#1531049 - 10/08/10 02:52 PM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Jose Luis]
Jose Luis Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/03/10
Posts: 8
Loc: DE
First of all, thank you all for your help!

Regarding the "hypothesis" of ChrisA about the "Processing"... I think it is not the case here. It is true that in general, the vibration is especially audible in the bass range but in even there and in the mid range you can find single notes where the sound is louder than the immediately neighbour tone. I think that in the MP3 I have just saved you can here this phenomena the best. Have a "hear" on it:

http://www.mediafire.com/?551f8f1kqlmxu42

Hi, spanishbuddha! After reading other discussions about other "sound" problems I had obviously tried such things the first... Get rid of reverb, tring resonance, damper resonace etc... Nothing changes. If you press the damper pedal everything gets worse since the vibration gets a little bit louder... You can also hear it in other piano types.

What is your hypothesis? Do you have a CA-63/93?

So, this is my theory. In my opinion this effect is not normal, since no pianist would like to listen to that metallic vibration sound...I have found in a german forum that somebody reports of something similar. He meant in the discussion, that all Kawai DPs have this sound...He bought his 63 end of June. My theory is that the first Models of CA-63 had other kind of problems (as we now from pianoworld) and which can be solved by the "firmware update" and some others produced later maybe this one...

I am curious to know what Kawai James thinks about all this too...

JL

Thanks so much!

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#1531121 - 10/08/10 04:17 PM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Jose Luis]
spanishbuddha Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2232
Loc: UK
Hi JL, sorry but I don't have a CA63/93. I hear something in the lower notes, but as an 'oldie' my ears are not so discriminating any more. I don't have a hypothesis, and we need other owners such as mucci, TADutchman, and of course KawaiJames to step in. At the risk of being even more unhelpful, have you checked there's no resonance from something in the room, the cabinet screws, and is the firmware at the latest level.

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#1531129 - 10/08/10 04:31 PM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Jose Luis]
Johan B Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/07
Posts: 922
Loc: The Netherlands, Grootegast-Gr...
Originally Posted By: Jose Luis
Hello to everybody!

I have just received my new Kawai CA-63 and I have noticed something with the sound which I do not like at all.

When you play any note in "forte" contained in the first (approx) 2/3 of the whole keyboard starting from the bass, you hear at first the sound of the tone and then, when the sound is decaying you hear a vibration noise like a window does when for example the music is too loud. This sound decays too. I could imagine, this is maybe the string of the piano which after producing the main sound, continues vibrating but offering more clearly this "residual" noise, rather than the tone itself. Obviously, this is especially audible by using the headphones. This sounds to me not beautiful at all... I have immediately phoned my dealer. By telephone was not audible for him but he means, this is not a defect but is the recording itself.

I just would like to know from the Kawai CA-63 owners if they can hear the same vibration noise as I described before. If yes, how "true" is this sound? I have searched as crazy in this forum but exacly this problem has not yet been reported.

Theoretically, if this is not a defect, the same sound should be audible with headphones in the CA-93... Have CA-93 owners something similar?

I am a little bit confused now. I was thinking for a long time which DP to buy, was also several times in the store to try the different models and read a lot in this forum. I slightly tendet to Kawai instead of Yamaha because I prefered the desing and touch of the CA-models. Regarding sound, I heard the obvious difference between a Kawai and a Yamaha but not this "extra" sound characteristic. Now I do not know if I should reconsider which DP to buy, if this sound is keeping in all Kawai DPs.

I please ask you to give me your feedback about your CA-63/CA-93 sound and your opinion about this "story"

Thank you very much!


JL


PS. Sorry for the orthographic/grammatical errors. I am not an english native speaker.


You are confused about your Kawai. I also heard the mp3's. The last mp3 sounds to me not normal.

Because the dp is not a very cheap one......go back to the store and make your complaint.....

Keep us informed. Did you ask Kawai James from this forum? Send him a pm with the link of this thread, he mostly very interested and he 's working at Kawai.

Best regards,
Johan B
_________________________

Currently working on Sonaten of Haydn and Mozart...
'Nil volentibus arduum'

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#1531161 - 10/08/10 05:30 PM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Jose Luis]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Hi Jose,

I just heard your last example with very good headphones. To me it sounds absolutely normal, that's the way the CA63 sounds when the sound is completely dry. And I find it quite realistic, no unnatural metallic sound. But actually, that's the way a piano sounds, it definitely contains some slight metallic sound parts. Listen closely to an acoustic grand, and you can hear it too. That's the way strings sound when they vibrate.

It might be that you don't like the specific sound signature of
Kawai DPs. And that's absolutely okay. And that's the reason why I'm not getting tired to strongly recomnend people to first test the instruments very carefully before making a purchase decision. You said you tested the DPs carefully, so I don't quite understand why you only recognized this after your purchase.

But maybe a different patch will meet your requirements. I would recommend to test some of the great piano patches from TADutchnan.
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1531193 - 10/08/10 06:15 PM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: mucci]
Jose Luis Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/03/10
Posts: 8
Loc: DE
Hello mucci,

I am happy that you have been aware of this discussion so fast and thank you for your comments.

I am not a very experienced piano player and had since a few months never had any contact or idea of DPs. I have always played in low-class vertical acoustic pianos. The last one a Schimmel, which sound I liked quite much.

As I mentioned before, I liked especially the touch and design of the Kawai. The "good" Yamahas between 1500 and 2200 €, all had the buttons on front of the keyboard, which I did not like, so I just decided to try and decide between CA-13, CA-63 and CA-93. The sound of the CA-13 in general was a little less realistic than 63 and 93 and it was weaker especially through the speakers so, after the positive opinions in this forum I was convinced to take the CA-63 model.

I had the impression that this strong "noise" was not there and the sound was more clear than I can listen here at home. If you have heard the last file you will have heard how, from 4 or 5 consecutive notes played, only the last one or two offer that vibration and not the first. Why should be this? If it is how you say, should not be the "vibration" increasing from left to right in the keyboard???

Thank you very much for your answer and advice!

JL

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#1531206 - 10/08/10 06:39 PM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Jose Luis]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2100
Loc: Sydney, Australia
FWIW, I can't hear any problems whatsoever with any of the recordings. I'll go further than that - the recordings sound very good. I have an older generation Kawai (MP9000), and these recordings sound like a higher fidelity, more detailed version of my sounds.

I think the objection may be with the slightly synthetic sound, which is caused by Kawai's harmonic imaging processing. I feel that it may also be due to the fact that the Kawai pianos have a very complex, rich tone. I don't really mind this slightly synthetic sound - it still sounds very good to me.

I really cannot hear anything that sounds like a "defect" at all.

Greg.

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#1531243 - 10/08/10 08:03 PM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Jose Luis]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8373
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Hello Jose,

As I have just written in response to your private message, I'm afraid I do not hear anything out of the ordinary in the MP3 audio files that you have provided.

I am therefore inclined to agree with both dealer's explanation and the opinions of other PW forum members: that the 'defect' you are hearing subjectively is part of the natural tonal character of the instrument.

Given that you are unsatisfied with this sound, and believe it to be a technical defect with the instrument, I strongly recommend that you contact my technical support colleagues at Kawai Europe using the email addresses listed on this page.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1531623 - 10/09/10 11:40 AM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Jose Luis]
Jose Luis Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/03/10
Posts: 8
Loc: DE
Hello to everybody once again!

First of all, thank you James for the post. I decided to go to the music store and test the DPs to clear out this issue.

As you and mucci said, the sound I was talking about is not a "defect" but the "normal" sound of the instrument. This sound can be found in all Kawai DPs. I tested CN23, CN33, CA-13, CA-63 and CA-93. I talked to the dealer and he could also hear it but he meant it is normal since it is the reproduction of the sound recorded from the Grand Acustic Kawai Piano. To me it still was strange to "reproduce" such a for me "unpure" sound and could hardly believe, that a Grand Kawai Acustic sounds like this when you sit and play on it. In the music store there were also some Grand Acustic Kawais so I tested them immediately. When playing, the sound is not there as much as it is by the loudspeakers or of course in the Headphones. I must say, might be, if you put your ear really close to the string which is heated, then you will hear this noise like you hear it reproduced by the Kawai DP models. Nevertheless, in my opinion, the sound which should be given by the electrical one should reproduce what you here siting on the bench and not 1 cm far away from the string. What do you think about?

Then I tried the CA-93 comparing it with the CA-63 as I did one month ago. Here I confirmed once again what I have "heard" on that time: The sound of the CA-93 is different than the sound of the CA-63 by headphones. I must emphasize this, since I have red several times in this forum how many "people" say that there is no difference or they did not hear the difference. One does not need a perfect hear to notice the difference. As I have also read this comment from Kawai James, I would really like to know what explanation the Kawai experts (James?) have. In respect to the "vibration" sound, I think, due to the different sound of the tones itself in the CA-93, this was a little less audible. But no question, that it was still there. Of course without headphones there is a huge difference between CA-63 and CA-93, which sounds more "living" like an acoustic does.

So, since the sound was still making me worry and doubt, if I would be satisfied with it in long term, I decided anyway to try the Yamahas, which I actually had not taken seriously especially due to design and touch. The Yamahas sound obviously different than a Kawai but also OK, and they do not have anything similar to that vibration. Nevertheless, I prefer the touch of the CA serie...but the CA-63 has simply too much of that "noise" and the CA-93 is far too expensive for a DP, considering I would like to buy a piano in the future...To buy a Yamaha now, in my opinion, is not very intelligent, since the new Yamahas will be marketed at the End of this year. Buying a model now of Feb. 2008 like the CLP370 does not seem to me the best. I am thinking to return the CA-63 or maybe take the CA-93 or simply nothing and wait for the new Yamahas... I have the possibility to play an acustic in a social place near to my house in the afternoon...

What do you think about all these? I am driving crazy with this story!!!

Heeelp!


JL

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#1531851 - 10/09/10 05:08 PM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Jose Luis]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2100
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: Jose Luis
Nevertheless, in my opinion, the sound which should be given by the electrical one should reproduce what you here siting on the bench and not 1 cm far away from the string. What do you think about?


Personally, I like to hear the bright metallic character of the piano, so I like your CA93 recordings. Note that I generally prefer pop music to classical music though.
Just out of curiousity, do you like the piano in Billy Joel's "New York State Of Mind"? This has a very "close" detailed sound too, sort of like the Kawai digital pianos.
See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XO2l7qtyyBw&feature=fvst

Greg.

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#1532116 - 10/10/10 03:00 AM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Jose Luis]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Jose Luis
Then I tried the CA-93 comparing it with the CA-63 as I did one month ago. Here I confirmed once again what I have "heard" on that time: The sound of the CA-93 is different than the sound of the CA-63 by headphones. I must emphasize this, since I have red several times in this forum how many "people" say that there is no difference or they did not hear the difference. One does not need a perfect hear to notice the difference.


It is a good thing you have finally decided to learn to play the piano because you have some of the key characteristics of a true artist: you hear things that are not there and you don't hear things that are there. grin Please keep us up to date with your development as a pianist! If you can play an acoustic in the afternoon for free, why bother buying a digital piano at all?

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#1532120 - 10/10/10 04:05 AM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: theJourney]
Jose Luis Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/03/10
Posts: 8
Loc: DE
Originally Posted By: Jose Luis
Originally Posted By: theJourney
It is a good thing you have finally decided to learn to play the piano because you have some of the key characteristics of a true artist: you hear things that are not there and you don't hear things that are there. grin Please keep us up to date with your development as a pianist! If you can play an acoustic in the afternoon for free, why bother buying a digital piano at all?


I do not know what you mean with this comment. And it actually sounds a little offending to me...What do you mean with "things that are not there" and "things that are there"? I have already given my "arguments" for that. Have you really tried both DPs? And have you played on a Kawai Grand where this vibration is so present as it is on headphones or loudspeakers? I can hardly believe it...

The main reason for a DP is the possibility to play just when I feel like playing and not when this room is open... I think this is a good reason...


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#1532121 - 10/10/10 04:22 AM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: sullivang]
Jose Luis Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/03/10
Posts: 8
Loc: DE
Originally Posted By: sullivang
Originally Posted By: Jose Luis
Nevertheless, in my opinion, the sound which should be given by the electrical one should reproduce what you here siting on the bench and not 1 cm far away from the string. What do you think about?


Personally, I like to hear the bright metallic character of the piano, so I like your CA93 recordings. Note that I generally prefer pop music to classical music though.
Just out of curiousity, do you like the piano in Billy Joel's "New York State Of Mind"? This has a very "close" detailed sound too, sort of like the Kawai digital pianos.
See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XO2l7qtyyBw&feature=fvst

Greg.


Hello Greg,

I am sorry but I cannot see the video in Germany. It is somehow blocked...I do not know the piece either. :-(

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#1532126 - 10/10/10 05:22 AM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Jose Luis]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Jose Luis
Originally Posted By: theJourney
It is a good thing you have finally decided to learn to play the piano because you have some of the key characteristics of a true artist: you hear things that are not there and you don't hear things that are there. grin Please keep us up to date with your development as a pianist! If you can play an acoustic in the afternoon for free, why bother buying a digital piano at all?


I do not know what you mean with this comment. And it actually sounds a little offending to me...What do you mean with "things that are not there" and "things that are there"? I have already given my "arguments" for that. Have you really tried both DPs? And have you played on a Kawai Grand where this vibration is so present as it is on headphones or loudspeakers? I can hardly believe it...

The main reason for a DP is the possibility to play just when I feel like playing and not when this room is open... I think this is a good reason...



One does not hear with his "theories" or "arguments" but with his "ears" and his "brain". What our brains actually hear through our ears is however heavily biased by what we expect to hear. Those sounds we find pleasant are those sounds to which we are most conditioned.

"Things that are not there" are the sounds of an acoustic piano reproduced fairly authentically which you deem a defect as well as the same samples reproduced from an instrument with a different model number.

"Things that are there" are the harmonics of an acoustic piano which you are not hearing as such.

You did not mention if you had also auditioned Roland digital pianos. Many people on this forum seem to have a preference for the sound signature of one or the other but not both. Perhaps you would find the Roland more pleasing to your ears than Kawai. However, be warned: At least one owner of a Roland HP-307 (also a novice player) was complaining about a similar faithful reproduction of the acoustic piano sound that no one else could hear.

First, however, you might want to experiment with the various parameters available for tweaking on the Kawai as described in the threads of TADutchman.

Finally, you might be happier playing through Pianoteq which allows you complete control over the instrument including in particular microphone placement to minimize some of the fundamental piano sounds that you are finding annoying.

As to being offended, there is nothing wrong with not being exactly the same as every other person in the world. In fact, many people would find that trait desirable rather than something to be derided.


Edited by theJourney (10/10/10 05:34 AM)

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#1532384 - 10/10/10 02:26 PM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: theJourney]
bluebilly Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 418
Loc: England
-
Sounds like "String Resonance" to me, something DP makers have tried to replicate as it occurs in acoustic (real) pianos, likewise "key let off", both of which piano manufacturers have tried to eliminate over time in "real pianos", but for the sake of realism DP makers have reintroduced it. But, I could be wrong, as usual.
-

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#1532738 - 10/11/10 01:08 AM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: bluebilly]
FogVilleLad Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 4680
Loc: San Francisco
bluebilly, from a Yamaha site: Key-off samples recreate the characteristic sound that occurs when a key is released and the dampers fall back onto the strings. [When one plays an acoustic piano], the stopping of the sound does not occur immediately; instead, it takes time to completely stop the string from vibrating. During this time, other frequencies are heard that are part of the actual realism of a piano sound.

To stop a note on a digital piano, an electronic switch is used to just cut the note off. Key-off samples - separate recordings of what occurs when the damper resets on the strings - give the digital piano the richly detailed sound of an actual acoustic piano when dampers are used to end the sound of the note.

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#1532838 - 10/11/10 04:17 AM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Jose Luis]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
This is my personal weighed list of desired sound effect reproductions on a DP:

On a scale from +10 to -10:
(+) means: This effect is desired
(0) I don't care about this effect
(-) means: This effect is not desired
(*) This indicates that CA63 is capable to reproduce this effect


(*)+10 The natural direct vibration of a string by pressing a key (normally the direct sample sound of a key)

(*)+8 Ambience (some reverb)

(*)+7 Damper resonance (the additional rich resonance you hear while pressing down the damper pedal)

(*)+2 String resonance (the additional resonance of a key held down while another key is pressed)

(*)0 Key off sound (the detailed sound of a key which is released)

(-)-1 Damper on/off sound (the sound of all keys alltogether when the damper pedal is pressed or released)


Please be aware that the different effects can also differ a lot in amount and quality depending on your DP, it's not only a yes/no categorization.
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1532996 - 10/11/10 10:11 AM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Jose Luis]
AndyT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/31/09
Posts: 120
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Hello,
I also found there was some strange sounds on some notes that I wasn't expecting with my CA63:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post1387821

- Also proved to be "just the way it is"

I hardly notice them now. And it doesn't bother me so much. Either I have got used to it, or I can play slightly better and don't hold down the keys for as long any more.

Andy T


Edited by AndyT (10/11/10 10:12 AM)

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#1533006 - 10/11/10 10:26 AM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Jose Luis]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2100
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Andy,
I took a listen to your recording, and I too think the way the note evolves sounds slightly strange. (to the technical amongst us - it sounds like the envelope is not natural)

Greg.

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#1533165 - 10/11/10 02:30 PM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Jose Luis]
Upright Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/15/10
Posts: 129
Loc: Germany
Have you tried the Mellow Grand 1. This one should sound less metallic.

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#1533552 - 10/12/10 02:16 AM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Jose Luis]
Harry_440 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/11/10
Posts: 9
Loc: Tennessee, USA

Here's another observation about CA63 sounds. I hope this isn't too long for a new member's first post and fits this thread. It does deal with CA63 sounds, but may be too nitpicking.

On my CA63 (firmware 1.06) when I very slowly press a pair of keys in sequence, I hear a sort of "electronic whining" sound at the end of the two notes played - especially pronounced using earphones and in the octave above middle C. The link to the MP3 file below is an example of the effect where I've played the five note pairs C5-F5, C5-G5, C5-A5, C5-B5 and C5-C6.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sic1whst3cz5h

Again, it's at the end of each note pair that I hear what I'm calling an "electronic whining" effect. The recording referenced above was made with default settings for Concert Grand ("Piano 1" button). Changing both Damper Resonance and String Resonance to zero didn't seem to have any effect.

At the local Kawai dealer in Germantown, Tennessee, USA where I purchased the CA63, I tried the same note sequences on the previous generation CA91, and with earphones I heard the same "electronic whining" effect. I also tried the same note sequences on a Kawai acoustic grand at the dealer and heard a somewhat similar but more muted sound effect, but without the "electronic whining". To my ears, the acoustic piano effect was pleasant while the effect is somewhat annoying on the CA63. (On the acoustic grand I wonder if what I heard resulted from the blending of the two note's harmonic frequenies, as each pair of the two blended notes died out.)

If my observation is accurate, I wonder if someone could offer a technical explanation of this "electronic whining" effect.

If I had discovered this effect before purchasing the CA63, it would not have been a deal killer since I have to play very slowly to hear it. At more normal playing speeds on the CA63 I don't seem to notice it.

Maybe this effect is not so significant, but I'm just curious if other CA63 owners can replicate this and what might be the cause beyond saying DPs are not acoustic pianos.

-----------

Not complaining - I really enjoy my CA63! Incredible touch and feel. Realistic Concert Grand sounds.

I've benefited quite a bit from all the great contributors to the PianoWorld Forum over the last year or so that I've been "lurking" in the shadows. This is an amazing resource. Information gained here influenced my two purchases of Kawai instruments. Hope I can contribute something useful sometime. (Did I hear someone say "Lurkers should make donations"?)

-----------

Harry

New member
Older adult beginner
(I hope learning piano and doing ear training slows Alzheimer's.)
Traded in my MP8-I for a new CA63.

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#1533562 - 10/12/10 02:39 AM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Jose Luis]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Welcome to Pianoworld Harry 440. Hope you continue to participate in the discussions.
There is also a great Adult Beginner's Forum and Pianist Corner on PW with interesting topics.

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#1533589 - 10/12/10 03:40 AM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Jose Luis]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2100
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Welcome Harry.

The "whining" might just be Kawai's Harmonic Imaging, which doesn't sound quite as realistic as an actual recording. It's like a VERY good electronic synthesizer producing the sound of a piano. This whining sounds very subtle indeed, and it doesn't really bother me at all, other than the fact that yes, I would prefer to be listening to plain samples instead of the processed sound. I'm assuming of course that I can hear the same whining sound that you can. That's my 2 cents.

Greg.

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#1533614 - 10/12/10 04:40 AM Re: Strange sound in Kawai CA-63? [Re: Harry_440]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Welcome also from me, Harry!

I didn't have the chance to hear your sound example, but I think I know what you mean, because your definition of the effect seems to be exactly what I hear sometimes! I observed this from the very beginning, even when I tested the DP in the local store. For me it's a minor annoyance, but the sound would really gain realism if Kawai could completely stop this.

From my observations you can minimize the effect with less pedal resonance (in contrary to what you experienced). It's also much less present in the lower and higher octaves. With headphones it's more obvious than with loudspeakers.

Technically it seems to be somehow an interference of generated frequencies that produce this slightly annoying effect.
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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