Yes, that's true, but it doesn't help either to repeat it a thousand times. It's just pure theory. It's like theJourney and others stated: You have to play the DP for yourself and check what keyboard action meets your needs the best. This is really easy to find out:

0. Preconditions: Bring plenty of time with you (min. 3h); you need a store with all the DPs you consider buying (that might be the difficult part)
1. Go to a local dealer with lots of DPs
2. Get a decent pair of headphones (closed headphones to not get disturbed by the "background" noise)
3. For each DP: Do extensive playing like you do at home / on stage. Check for action and sound. If you recognize differences, check again if it was not just a coincidence. Narrow down your choice if you recognize that a specific action is not your taste at all. At the end compare those two models extensively which you prefer most. Best is to stop at some point and come back again on another day. There might be changes in mood, physical condition / whatever that might have influenced your preference.
I checked all models in my price range, also the more expensive and cheaper ones to get an idea if the price range is really worth it or accurate.
At the end your choice should be quite clear. In my case (back in January this year) there was absolutely no doubt which model to choose.

I would expect the action of my desired DP to be satisfying and meeting all my needs (value for money of course).

I never said otherwise. There is no harm in knowing what features the DP's have and do not have before you perform your testing.

I am quite willing to reword my original statement:

"A POSSIBLE minus: the MP10 does not have double escapement. The Roland does".

Greg.

For what purpose? I have no problem with your finding and wording. I myself stated that for CA63. This is a no-issue. So let's move on.

Mucci,
I thought you thought I was trying to say that the fact that the MP10 lacks double escapement was DEFINITELY a disadvantage, for everyone. Given that, I wanted to make it clear that I am merely stating that it lacks that feature, and it is up to each individual to assess whether the lack of this feature is important to them or not.

Greg.

Fair enough! I agree. BTW it is nowhere stated that it has this feature. So let's move on...

Sincere apologies if this has received coverage elsewhere but does the MP-10 have the "RM3 with let-off" as per the CA-93 or the "RM3" as per the CA-63? Can I assume what Kawai calls "let-off" simulates the feel of a grand piano escapement but does NOT provide the functionality, ie, the ability for a note to be re-struck without fully releasing the key?

It matters not (to me) really as I do not have the technical playing ability to exploit this feature but I would like to know. For what it's worth that was the only significant difference between Roland PHA-II and III...the III really does allow lightning quick and believable repetition. Whilst I can physically achieve enough dexterity to expose the difference I can't do it in a musically profitable way!

Cheers,

Steve

I thought this was clear now....

CA93 just has the let-off feel, not the functionality. For me this is of no benefit, other might consider this useful. Both CA63 and CA93 have two sensors, there is no way to provide the double escapement functionality with only two sensors.

The MP10 is the same as the CA93, which has let-off simulation.

Aaron

Ok, many thanks. A bit of digging and I would've found the answer I suppose but thanks again.

The number of sensors is of no particular relevance to me... and certainly would not discourage me from buying any particular piano.

For what it's worth I have owned a Roland with both PHA-II and III...I don't find the III to be nicer at all despite its third sensor. But there is more to the repetition ability than just the number of sensors. I also have a Nord Piano (Fatar action) and it has faster/smoother repetition than the Roland RD-700GX (PHA-II)...but both have just two sensors (I'm not talking about the keys' physical ability to be struck and to return, but the way subsequent notes sound). The difference is small but quite easily perceptible. The Nord is of course nowhere near as good at repetitions as the PHA-III but part of the issue must be about sensor positioning and trigger points too.

So I guess it's possible that Kawai have a sensor "geometry" that works well, despite there being only two.

Steve

I understand the sentiment. However, the Kawai mechanism is an entirely different device. Maybe something about its design would make it difficult or expensive to add that feature. Or maybe they're still working on that aspect of the design for a future version, but didn't want to hold up releasing what they already had, since it's superior in many other ways, and the "missing feature" may not matter to many people. Or for that matter, maybe the extra sensor in the Casio is an attempt to address a problem that may not exist (or exist to the same extent) in the Kawai, due to other design differences... i.e., until we have some people actually play both keyboards and confirm that they can actually repeat a note more quickly on a Casio than a Kawai, we don't know for sure that this is a limitation of the Kawai in the first place. What's important is how they play, not which technologies they use to get there.

Also, "better in every way" is a difficult standard because (a) people don't always agree on what feels better, and (b) in engineering, sometimes improvements in one area come at the expense of something else.

Picking up from something essbrace said... The point of Casio's third sensor is to permit much faster same-key repetition... but I would not assume that's the only way to achieve that goal. The cheap Yamaha NP-30 permits (to my fingers) much faster repetition than the three-sensor Casios! The keyboard, unweighted, is inferior in other ways, but it is a very "quick" keyboard.

Faster repetition is only part of the picture. Casio (and Yamaha, and Roland), have added the third sensor so that the overall behaviour is closer to a real grand piano, in the following ways:

1. It allows repetitions for relatively small key returns - LIKE A REAL GRAND PIANO
2. It allows repetitions without the dampers coming into contact with the strings - LIKE A REAL GRAND PIANO
3. It allows the strings to be damped at a relatively high point in the key return - LIKE A REAL GRAND PIANO (and also like an upright piano too)

This all starts with the premise that the keys on these digital pianos move in a similar way and velocity to a real grand piano.
Yes, an organ or synth can repeat very rapidly, but the keys behave NOTHING like a piano.

Greg.

My friend, as long as we're just talking theory, there is no way of finding out what is really better suited for your specific needs.

I tested all current mechanisms, and I have clearly made a decision in favor to the CA63 keyboard action because it gave the best playing experience to me personally. That said, I think I do have a playing style that doesn't need the double escapement. Still I have the feeling that the repetition of the Kawai, compared to the other brands, is quicker with the way I'm playing the piano.

Again, I suggest to get in touch with those keyboard actions in question and check whether it meets your needs for repetition and grand piano accuracy. Everything else is (sorry to insist on this) plain theory and leads to speculation but not to a real experience.

Never a truer word spoken.

Greg, let's just remind ourselves of what we're trying to achieve here:







Honestly, the goal of any digital piano action is surely to recreate the feeling of playing an acoustic grand piano. Whether the action features two sensors or three sensors is, I believe, a theoretical irrelevance. In practise, those who have tried the 'RM3 Grand' action (and by this I mean properly playing it) are convinced that they are playing an acoustic grand - job done.

Cheers,
James
x

Okay, let's try to get this thread back on topic, shall we?

Here's a new demo clip of the MP6 from Kawai Europe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGCGvV0yFsc

(make sure you watch in at least 480p for stereo sound)

The video is in German, however the general feature explanations should be reasonably easy to follow for non-German speakers...and besides, it's the sound of the instrument that's important - not that language that the demonstrator is speaking.

Cheers,
James
x

The MP6 really has me wondering. While I always like to get the "Top of the line" DP out of a series (the MP series), the MP6 has a lot of the M10's specs but without the price (Sweetwater says: MP10~$2499.00 USD and MP6~$1499.00 USD) and the weight. I already own an RD700GXF, but I am curious about the MP's for better Rhodes and possible better dimensions (actual width for gigging). I just can't stand the fact that Roland continues to extend their STAGE PIANOS with a joystick pitch bender more suitable for their synths. Kawai was very smart for not extending their boards anymore than they have to. It would be very interesting to see if these new MP series's can pass the acoustic piano (emulation) looping test. Basically are there noticeable looping in the samples. I am very curious about this, because I have been somewhat spoiled with my RD700GXF and audible looping (now) just will not do for me (like in the past when there was really no choice...older DP technology).

BTW....Kawai James, that demo sounds great and the Rhodes emulations really sound good. Do the new Rhodes emulations use the same PHI technology as the acoustic pianos? I ask this because I know that Kawai digital acoustic piano emulations have been great for non-noticeable velocity layers (unfortunately in previous models the sound didn't work for me, maybe now though in these newer models). I only hope that the EP's (Rhodes emulations and Wurlitzer) have the same wide dynamic range.

Those german funk chops, found at an ancestral grave site from the eighties, was a great turn off for me. I hope the worldwide videos feature more actual sounds from the piano than nauseating background midi tracks. Rhodes were nice though.

Sound focus? Market-speak for eq in disguise?

LOL. Not only the throwback playing was a turnoff. It seemed the video was actually an advertisement for the German high school nerd goes gangsta' look with sloppy ALDI T-shirt, oversized pinky rings and too big watches. Clearly a video production unburdened by the input from an art director or marketing professional.

And, as icing on the cake, from an organization that presumes to call itself "Kawai Europe", a broadcast in German. Didn't they get the memo that the attempt to impose German as the "Europe" language failed and that English is not only the lingua franca of Europe but the only real common language of most European musicians interested in Kawai products?

theJourney... Your favourite topic again!! I guess no offense intended in your nice words...

Please tell us what you liked about the video that was paid out of profits of Kawai instruments, mucci.
Did they say anything interesting? Most of us would have no idea.
Nothing like advertisements that few can understand for products that even fewer can find for sale...at least they could call themselves "Kawai Germany" so that Kawai could actually develop a Kawai Europe presence to compete with Yamaha.

Well, please tell me of great video demos of other DP brands. Don't ask me why they made it the way it is. Maybe they have a limited budget? How many DPs do they sell compared to Yamaha? This one is clearly for German audience, it was taken out of the German part of the KAWAI Europe site, so what? Maybe another one is in production? I don't know, I even don't care. But anyway, isn't this forum about DPs and their build and sound quality and not so much about the way a company presents its products? At least this is what I would expect.

BTW, I'm not sure if someone already mentioned this, but the MP6 has only PHI (Progressive Harmonic Imaging), which is not the same as the UPHI (Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging) what is included in CA63 and CA93. I have no idea what the actual technology is behinde these buzz words, but I personally prefer the sound of UPHI after my tests. MP10 has UPHI, but fewer sounds. This in connection with the RM3 keyboard might suggest that MP10 might be better suited for pure piano playing.

Not many and stuff like this is why ....

I'd rate the MP10's EP's as "very good" rather then "Great" .....

I can't believe people are complaining about a video because it's in German.
Not everyone speaks English, and I assume that in that video's target market, more people speak German than English! I'm sure there will be English demos made too. What difference does it make which ones are posted first? Especially when the product isn't even available yet for anyone to buy! In the mean time, would we be better off with no demo at all? If you want to vent frustration that Kawai USA hasn't posted a video yet, okay, but don't take it out on the helpful work some other division did for their own market.

+1 agree

Still I find it hard to jugde sounds /playability of these instruments by sound demo's or demo movies online. Judging from this particular video, I didn't think the electric piano's were that special (and the synth sound could have better been left out). Hope there are some units in the stores soon to testplay, but I afraid I'll just have to order and find out myself ...

That said, I think the Mp6 has a fair price for what it offers. If they only had included the UHPI acoustic grand and skip some other redundant sounds in it's place, but that discussion has been taken place before. Let's play !

The new Casios may have the third sensor, but they still don't really feel like real pianos. You have to look at the whole package. It is possible that some other keyboard may play more like a real piano than the Casio does, even if it doesn't have the third sensor, and in that case, that's what I would prefer. (Even if the Casio lets me do same-key repetition faster... which I still wouldn't assume is necessarily *always* the case in a competing 2-sensor design, without actually trying it. The way I see it, it's possible that the only reason that the third sensor needs to be used to address this issue is that the keys aren't naturally returning fast enough in the first place, and a different action design might address that as well.)

As for your specifics for benefits of a third sensor *other* than permitting fast repetition:

I don't understand your point #3. My understanding is that a regular 2-sensor design has a "high point" sensor which is used to trigger the "note off" (and as a starting point for determining the velocity for the "note on"), along with a "low point" sensor which actually triggers the "note on." Why would a third sensor be needed to damp the sound "at a relatively high point in the key return"? Isn't that the normal behavior of a 2-sensor design?

As for points 1 and 2, what actual benefits are there to these behaviors *other* than permitting fast repetition? Would you be aware of them in any other kind of playing?

On a real piano, yes, you can actually lift the key just high enough to permit re-playing the key without allowing the damper to fall (as you describe in point 2) *or* a little higher to permit a re-play with the string damped between the strikes (still without having allowed the key to come up to near the beginning of its travel), the latter being what I think is more commonly desired. To recreate both of these scenarios electronically, you would need four sensors, not three (and the re-strikes from the different points would have to be programmed to trigger either damped or undamped samples). I'm not sure I see much real world benefit to this, though, or that I would actually even notice it in actual playing. I think we have a ways to go in making these relatively inexpensive and portable pianos more authentic before even beginning to think about that level of minutia. There are so many more noticeable flaws to be addressed.

As I just mentioned in another thread, while there is a lot I like about the Casios, if I'm evaluating *strictly* on how much they feel/respond/sound like playing a real piano, I'd still pick the 2-sensor single-layer (I think) Yamaha P-95 over the 3-sensor 4-layer PX-330. I think the Yamaha provides a more authentic piano experience in feel and dynamics. You can't look at the technologies in a vacuum. Solid implementation of basic technology can sometimes out-perform things that sound better on paper.

As far as I can tell, this is not true. The language of the current World Empire is English, thus the language of everything international is English, thus almost everybody in Europe (above a given level of IQ) has learnt to speak English. (That is true in Germany, too.)

I have to mention the american presentation video of the mp5 and mp8ii. Even cheesier and possibly aimed at home shopping tv. I like how the man tells us the great portability of the mp5 and not saying a word of the mp8. Almost emphasing that the mp8ii is one heavy pieace of... slab. Won't link it as it might hurt sales of the newer models :) 

Oh what the heck: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Kut2kcdjPo

Kawai outside Japan seems intent on pushing DPs as used cars. Might work for some. Ain't working for me.

I think most users of this forum have enough self reservation to actually go down and try the keybead and sound combination before buying - if possible. Mere marketing hype isn't enough to sway us, right? (right ).

I used to live in Berlin until a couple of month back and though most people understand english pretty good there are a fair amout of people who simply refuse to talk back in anything else than german (especially older folks, odd no?). I think the general mindset is something in the line of "if it's aired in germany, it's going to be in german, or thou shallt be dubbed!". I've known people who actually prefer the dubbed voices of certian actors in american movies aired in germany. Oh my! wandering off topic here.

I'm going to find a music store with the CA93 to get my hopes back up for the mp10, it does seem as the perfect instrument on paper, if I just can hold out that long.