Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Strange sound in Kawai CA-63?

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Sounds like "String Resonance" to me, something DP makers have tried to replicate as it occurs in acoustic (real) pianos, likewise "key let off", both of which piano manufacturers have tried to eliminate over time in "real pianos", but for the sake of realism DP makers have reintroduced it. But, I could be wrong, as usual.
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bluebilly, from a Yamaha site: Key-off samples recreate the characteristic sound that occurs when a key is released and the dampers fall back onto the strings. [When one plays an acoustic piano], the stopping of the sound does not occur immediately; instead, it takes time to completely stop the string from vibrating. During this time, other frequencies are heard that are part of the actual realism of a piano sound.

To stop a note on a digital piano, an electronic switch is used to just cut the note off. Key-off samples - separate recordings of what occurs when the damper resets on the strings - give the digital piano the richly detailed sound of an actual acoustic piano when dampers are used to end the sound of the note.

This is my personal weighed list of desired sound effect reproductions on a DP:

On a scale from +10 to -10:
(+) means: This effect is desired
(0) I don't care about this effect
(-) means: This effect is not desired
(*) This indicates that CA63 is capable to reproduce this effect


(*)+10 The natural direct vibration of a string by pressing a key (normally the direct sample sound of a key)

(*)+8 Ambience (some reverb)

(*)+7 Damper resonance (the additional rich resonance you hear while pressing down the damper pedal)

(*)+2 String resonance (the additional resonance of a key held down while another key is pressed)

(*)0 Key off sound (the detailed sound of a key which is released)

(-)-1 Damper on/off sound (the sound of all keys alltogether when the damper pedal is pressed or released)


Please be aware that the different effects can also differ a lot in amount and quality depending on your DP, it's not only a yes/no categorization.

Hello,
I also found there was some strange sounds on some notes that I wasn't expecting with my CA63:

https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...r%20Kawai%20CA63%20owne.html#Post1387821

- Also proved to be "just the way it is"

I hardly notice them now. And it doesn't bother me so much. Either I have got used to it, or I can play slightly better and don't hold down the keys for as long any more.

Andy T

Andy,
I took a listen to your recording, and I too think the way the note evolves sounds slightly strange. (to the technical amongst us - it sounds like the envelope is not natural)

Greg.

Have you tried the Mellow Grand 1. This one should sound less metallic.

Here's another observation about CA63 sounds. I hope this isn't too long for a new member's first post and fits this thread. It does deal with CA63 sounds, but may be too nitpicking.

On my CA63 (firmware 1.06) when I very slowly press a pair of keys in sequence, I hear a sort of "electronic whining" sound at the end of the two notes played - especially pronounced using earphones and in the octave above middle C. The link to the MP3 file below is an example of the effect where I've played the five note pairs C5-F5, C5-G5, C5-A5, C5-B5 and C5-C6.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sic1whst3cz5h

Again, it's at the end of each note pair that I hear what I'm calling an "electronic whining" effect. The recording referenced above was made with default settings for Concert Grand ("Piano 1" button). Changing both Damper Resonance and String Resonance to zero didn't seem to have any effect.

At the local Kawai dealer in Germantown, Tennessee, USA where I purchased the CA63, I tried the same note sequences on the previous generation CA91, and with earphones I heard the same "electronic whining" effect. I also tried the same note sequences on a Kawai acoustic grand at the dealer and heard a somewhat similar but more muted sound effect, but without the "electronic whining". To my ears, the acoustic piano effect was pleasant while the effect is somewhat annoying on the CA63. (On the acoustic grand I wonder if what I heard resulted from the blending of the two note's harmonic frequenies, as each pair of the two blended notes died out.)

If my observation is accurate, I wonder if someone could offer a technical explanation of this "electronic whining" effect.

If I had discovered this effect before purchasing the CA63, it would not have been a deal killer since I have to play very slowly to hear it. At more normal playing speeds on the CA63 I don't seem to notice it.

Maybe this effect is not so significant, but I'm just curious if other CA63 owners can replicate this and what might be the cause beyond saying DPs are not acoustic pianos.

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Not complaining - I really enjoy my CA63! Incredible touch and feel. Realistic Concert Grand sounds.

I've benefited quite a bit from all the great contributors to the PianoWorld Forum over the last year or so that I've been "lurking" in the shadows. This is an amazing resource. Information gained here influenced my two purchases of Kawai instruments. Hope I can contribute something useful sometime. (Did I hear someone say "Lurkers should make donations"?)

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Harry

New member
Older adult beginner
(I hope learning piano and doing ear training slows Alzheimer's.)
Traded in my MP8-I for a new CA63.

Welcome to Pianoworld Harry 440. Hope you continue to participate in the discussions.
There is also a great Adult Beginner's Forum and Pianist Corner on PW with interesting topics.

Welcome Harry.

The "whining" might just be Kawai's Harmonic Imaging, which doesn't sound quite as realistic as an actual recording. It's like a VERY good electronic synthesizer producing the sound of a piano. This whining sounds very subtle indeed, and it doesn't really bother me at all, other than the fact that yes, I would prefer to be listening to plain samples instead of the processed sound. I'm assuming of course that I can hear the same whining sound that you can. That's my 2 cents.

Greg.

Welcome also from me, Harry!

I didn't have the chance to hear your sound example, but I think I know what you mean, because your definition of the effect seems to be exactly what I hear sometimes! I observed this from the very beginning, even when I tested the DP in the local store. For me it's a minor annoyance, but the sound would really gain realism if Kawai could completely stop this.

From my observations you can minimize the effect with less pedal resonance (in contrary to what you experienced). It's also much less present in the lower and higher octaves. With headphones it's more obvious than with loudspeakers.

Technically it seems to be somehow an interference of generated frequencies that produce this slightly annoying effect.

This sounds to me like the string resonance effect. Could you try setting the string resonance to zero and tell us, if the whining changes?

Harry, I just was able to listen to the sound. What I hear is by no means what I considered the "whining" effect, this seems to me just plain string decay. It could also be string resonance, although you said that it is independent on the setting of string resonance. Did you play this with damper pedal down? I assume you didn't have the pedal down.

My subtle "whining" is only detectable when you have the sustain pedal down and playing e.g. a 3 or 4 notes chord in the middle range. So it seems to be something different.

Thanks for all the Welcomes, comments on my post, and encouragement from theJourney to continue contributing.

Mawima, when I set String Resonance to zero, it didn't seem to change the effect for me. Thanks.

sullivang, thanks for bringing up Harmonic Imaging as a possible factor.

mucci, thanks for your identification of string decay as what I'm hearing. I didn't use any of the CA63's pedals during the recording.

I just tried something that suprises me a little. I just tried using my $15 Radio Shack headphones that I use on my PC and this seems to cut out most of the "whining" effect to my ears, compared to using my more expensive audio technica ATH-M20 earphones. The RS earphones also produced a brighter sound to my ears. So now I've discovered that I like the sound from the cheaper RS earphones over the ATH-M20s. I'll have to see if the whole DP experience sounds better with the RS earphones.

And maybe this "whining" thing is partly influenced my hearing perception. My recent hearing test (at age 65) did indicate a sharp drop off in my frequency response at a little below 4000 Hz, although contrarywise this somewhat poor frequency response would seem to cut out any "whining" frequencies to my ear.

Thanks for giving some time to my inquiry. I now think that I need to investigate earphone issues. I probably should look for a past PW thread about how hearing perception effects the piano experience.

Harry