Welcome back, Mucci & CyberGene!

Please note that all of these dual voice settings are free for non-commercial use.


PROFESSIONAL PRESETS DEVELOPMENT FOR KAWAI CA93/CA63
@Kawai James, talking about business: I'm granting KAWAI the right of first refusal for buying and consequently commercially using all of the dual voice presets of this thread (only after purchase), e.g. in one of their upcoming CA93/CA63 firmware updates.

Just a very short test mp3 file:

http://www.mediafire.com/?vma2ulm6sfrmm33

The file contains a short live demo I played for these settings:

1. The plain pianoteq play patch I use for my layered sound
2. The plain CA63 Concert Grand sound I use for my layered sound
3. My favourite layered sound (1+2)
4. The very nice Steinway patch R2.1 from TADutchman

Feedback on which sound is your favourite one is very much appreciated!

mucci, thanks for posting the MP3.

To be honest, I like them all, however the layered versions (3 and 4) definitely possess something a little extra...nice long resonances too.

Cheers,
James
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Hi All! I'm fairly new to this forum has just taken delivery on a Ca-63 last week. Having left my Kawai upright in London (for my tenants...) whilst working in Tokyo for a while I decided I couldn't last any longer without a piano. I must say I am completely amazed by the tone of touch of digital pianos these days and that goes for all the models I tried (Roland, Kawai and Yamaha). Additionally, huge thanks for TADutchman and Pinipon for pulling all these great fun layers together!

Anyhow - the purpose of this post is to ask a question I have already posed to the Kawai international support line but have yet to receive a response. My CA-63 is the Japanese model for which as far as I can tell the only difference is that you have a setting to switch between English and Japanese. However, it has shipped with version 1.06 of the firmware:
1) Does upgrading to 1.07 make any difference - particularly with the 'layering fun'?
2) Does anyone have a clue whether I can use the European or US upgrade patch as the Japanese web site is totally impenetrable - even in Japanese and I can't find the patch on it...

Apologies for the slightly tangential question - and thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Nick

Hello Nick, welcome to the forum, and congratulations on your new CA63!
week


Okay, I'll chase this up next week.



There are a handful of minor differences related to the content and operation of the 'Concert Magic' and 'Lesson' functions, however these are relatively minor. The initial Japanese models also lacks a couple of USB Audio features found on the overseas models, however I believe these were subsequently added with the v1.03 firmware. The Japanese models also lack a couple of USB Audio features found on the overseas models.



No, it shouldn't do. The 1.07 updated ironed out a few remaining issues with the string resonance implementation, as well as improving a handful of operations (e.g. remembering the selected sound from each category when switching sounds). However I don't believe software update should influence the layering functionality a great deal, if at all.



I don't believe there should be able problems using the European CA63 software update on a Japanese model as they both share the same hardware. However, it's probably best if I double-check with the engineering chaps on Tuesday (we're off for Taiku no hi tomorrow...) just to make absolutely sure. If there any compatibility issues with using the European firmware, I can always email the latest Japanese firmware to you directly.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
James
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EDIT: Confirmed the 'missing' USB Audio features on the Japanese CA93/CA63 models.

James - thanks so much for your very rapid and detailed response! I will wait on the confirmation that it is OK to upgrade... I plan to enjoy a full day of Rachmaninov tomorrow on our Yasumi no hi - although slightly tempted to go window shopping in the Kawai showroom in Omotesando too.
Many many thanks -
Nick

Hello Nick,

No problem - a pleasure to help.

Enjoy your day of Rachmaninov tomorrow, although I would perhaps suggest saving that rather generous portion of culture for Bunka no hi on November the 3rd.

Cheers,
James
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Thanks! Unfortunately the way play I Rachmaninov is probably more appropriate for sports day than cultural day. I keep trying though!
Nick

Thanks for your effort, potentially it is a great comparison, but I´m sorry to report that the recording itself doesn´t seem to work that well, as it doesn´t really reflect reality. I noticed that audio quality is much lower than during live playing and differences between custom settings seem to be quite subtle, while in reality there is nothing subtle about the differences between for instance 2. and 4., as you have already discovered for yourself:



Is this the (on-purpose?) standard crippling taking place because of the current CA93/CA63 USB-record implementation (I don´t mean mp3 vs wav differences), sounding mediocre compared to the spectacular sounding live recording and playback with the internal CA93/CA63 sequencer?

Hmmm...

This recording was the first direct recording with my new Zoom H1 96khz/24bit recording "gadget" via Line-In which usually produces very high quality recordings. And the quality is indeed much better than the standard USB recording, since I can manually set the gain level to an appropriate level. There is no way to do the recording by direct USB since it would only record the internal sound, not the Pianoteq sound.

BTW, I can hear a big difference between 2 and 4... did you check the sound with good headphones?

I agree there is a big difference between 2 and 4 and 4 makes me want to go out and try a CA93 with a printout of TADutchman's posts.

The combination between pianoteq and kawai on board sound on the other hand swims a bit too much for me.

Well, it could be that I have been partly fooled by some less than ideal speakers and headphones listening in Pulsnitz (Leb/Pfefferkuchenstadt near Dresden), where I have been staying for a few days .
I don´t have any more high-end alternatives at hand, so please hold your horses until I arrive back home this week.


@TheJourney: thanks for giving your feedback in the meantime.

Yes, TADutchmans patches are really refreshingly different and a clear improvement over factory sounds!

You're also right, the Pianoteq/CA63 combi sounds a little muddy when you directly compare it with the Steinway patch. On the other side, you need to modify your playing style to accurately play this combi because of the long decay, and this was not possible during the very short comparison, so this might also be a reason for your finding.

But what's also true is that with the new combi patches the call is much more difficult even for me on which patch to prefer! I think it strongly depends on what kind of music I will play.

NickTokyo, while I believe you should already have received a response to your initial overseas support request, it's perhaps best that I also respond to your query in this thread.

After speaking with the R&D chaps, I can confirm that it is perfectly safe to apply the European v1.07 software update (and future updates) on your Japanese CA63.

Kind regards,
James
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James!
Thanks so much for your super quick and helpful suggestions. All perfectly updated and re-regionalised too! Not only delighted with the instrument now - but the superb service too!
Thanks
Nick

Hello Nick,

Glad to here that the update/region change was successful.

By the way, if you ever have a chance to take a shot of the CA63 in your home, please do feel free to add the picture to this thread.

Cheers,
James
x

Yes, now I did and indeed the difference is somewhat more pronounced (probably as far as an MP3-encoded file with DAC and ADC conversions can go). Thanks for pinpointing!

Still, I would strongly recommend towards Kawai a perfect rendition out of the box with full 32/24-bit WAV USB-record and/or conversion functionality, containing the identical high-end playback quality and volume level (with compression/limiter) of the internal CA93/CA63 track recorder! (essentially having no ADC/DAC/16-bit/no-dithering/MP3/sample rate conversion losses).

TADutchman, I did a 48khz/24bit recording. No 16bit/dithering whatever. And you can be sure that the MP3 I generated is indistinguishable from the original WAV recording. I tested that on other occasions with double blind tests. If you doubt this I can send you the original WAV file and you can test for yourself. Since the internal USB recording is not a digital recording as Kawai James already stated, it also uses a DAC and ADC step, so also this should not cause any differences.

To sum this up: I'm sure that my (external) recording with my Zoom H1 produces at least the same high quality recording than by using the internal USB-recording (as I said maybe even better due to custom gain control).

BTW the internal track recorder does only record individual MIDI notes, its not an audio recorder. That's a big difference! So when it "plays back" the recording, it is actually producing the original sound again by playing like it would do with an external keyboard that is connected via MIDI-IN.

TADutchman, you've made another great job: your Steinway "supercharged" 2.1 is really a BIG ONE!! I like the effect for open-lid, half open and closed-lid: is very realistic

the PUB PIANO SING-A-LONG 1.0 could be also called:
WESTERN WOODEN SCOTT JOPLIN PIANO 1.0

Don't worry, I'm already convinced that your recording is better than the current direct recording to USB implementation.



Yes, that's how it works. Now, to be more exact, my recommendation towards Kawai is that us users will get functionality to easily make a high-end lossless 32-bit float/24-bit copy without sample rate conversion of the audio playback part, just before it goes through the DAC(s) to the CA93/CA63 speaker-system (a low volume recording with some headroom, using let's say 'only' 22-bit, would still be okay).

Yes, that would e a "nice to have" (but I doubt that Kawai will implement this because of lack of mass interest and it most probably needs some hardware adjustments).

Now I have another question to you, TADutchman: In your great Steinway patch you used "Stretch tuning = wide". What does this do to the sound? I assume that this is also responsible for the remarkable sound of the patch, but I'm not too familiar with especially this setting.

Thanks, Pinipon: there are more dual voice settings coming, but presets development has temporarily stopped because of my birthday.

Just a little hint to everybody: if you keep the voicing parameter in your active display then you can change 'the lid position' with just one simple button press during live playing!

Well, we're talking top-of-the-line Kawai DP's here, so I would say for challenging the discussion: either offer a decent USB-recording function (even if it will be 'only' 16-bit contemporary CD-mastering quality) or do not offer one at all. In it's current state it's more like a toy; a my-first-Sony recording which cannot be effectively used to demonstrate the outstanding quality of the CA93/CA63; I thought Kawai was bad at marketing gimmicks?

Okay, here's a reference for explaining the general principles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_tuning

In the specific case of this Steinway patch with a lot of extremely complex resonances, wide stretch tuning is effective in slightly reducing the frequency beating between notes (expressed in Hertz), especially making complex chords sound smoother. It's just the icing on the cake, but yes it certainly does contribute to the remarkable polyphonic sound and excellent playability!

Alternatively, for getting an idea of the limitations of wide stretch tuning, you could try the same with for instance the Bösendorfer, having less complex, almost 'additive synthesis'-like resonances (bell-like harmonics) and you'll see that the effect of wide stretch tuning may be negligible or even counter-productive in some cases, yielding a less characterful sound.

see that link and try:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1448603/3.html#Post1511032

you will notice/hear a really clear difference in pieces with "wide" chords and octaves...

Let's have some fun and go for a naming Quiz this weekend: who could name this new piano patch spot-on after testing? Some other feedback is welcome too!

Here are already a few options:
1. Toy Piano R1.0
2. Tweaked AvantGrand R1.0
3. Close Miked KAWAI EX - Surround Reverb R1.0
4. Real Acoustic R1.0
5. Big, Bright & Beautiful R1.0
6. other...


NO NAME ASSIGNED (yet) R1.0

Dual Voice: Concert Grand, volume 9 + Clavi, volume 1

1 Basic Settings
1 - 3 Tone control: low +5, mid +2, high -3

2 Virtual Technician
2 - 1 Voicing: mellow 2
2 - 2 Damper resonance: 10
2 - 3 String resonance: 10
2 - 4 Key off effect: 6
2 - 5 Touch: light
2 - 8 Stretch tuning: Wide

3 Key Settings
3 - 3 Layer octave: +2
3 - 4 Layer dynamics: 9

Reverb: Hall 2

Effect: Delay 3, time 1, depth 5

Should I perhaps call this update: The Piano Formerly Known As No Name Assigned (Yet)? I'm sure somebody will have a better idea...


KAWAI EX ADDICTION R1.1

Dual Voice: Concert Grand, volume 9 + Clavi, volume 1

1 Basic Settings
1 - 3 Tone control: low +5, mid +2, high -3

2 Virtual Technician
2 - 1 Voicing: normal (open-lid) / mellow 1 (half open) / mellow 2 (closed)
2 - 2 Damper resonance: 10
2 - 3 String resonance: 10
2 - 4 Key off effect: 7
2 - 5 Touch: light
2 - 8 Stretch tuning: Wide

3 Key Settings
3 - 3 Layer octave: +2
3 - 4 Layer dynamics: 9

Reverb: Hall 2

Effect: Delay 3, time 1, depth 4

well... another good sound as you have accustomed us.
After trying for few moments, it must have a name of Grand piano: lid simulation, good dynamics, emphasis on Concert Grand (Kawai EX samples) - I propose:

KAWAI EX ADDICTION R1.1

what do you think

I'd swear there was an extra percussive quality to it!


JAZZ & BLUES IMPROVISATION GRAND R1.0

Dual Voice: Jazz Grand, volume 9 + Marimba, volume 1

1 Basic Settings
1 - 3 Tone control: Bass boost

2 Virtual Technician
2 - 1 Voicing: normal (open-lid) / mellow 1 (half open) / mellow 2 (closed)
2 - 2 Damper resonance: 8
2 - 3 String resonance: 10
2 - 4 Key off effect: 6
2 - 5 Touch: light

3 Key Settings
3 - 3 Layer octave: -2
3 - 4 Layer dynamics: 9

Reverb: Stage

Effect: Delay 2, time 2, depth 2

What would happen when you put your Studio Grand in a real Concert Hall?


THE BRILLIANT GRAND - SURROUND SOUND R1.0

Dual Voice: Studio Grand, volume 9 + Celesta, volume 1

1 Basic Settings
1 - 3 Tone control: Loudness

2 Virtual Technician
2 - 1 Voicing: normal (open-lid) / mellow 1 (half open) / mellow 2 (closed)
2 - 2 Damper resonance: 10
2 - 3 String resonance: 10
2 - 4 Key off effect: 6
2 - 5 Touch: light
2 - 8 Stretch tuning: Wide

3 Key Settings
3 - 3 Layer octave: -1
3 - 4 Layer dynamics: 8

Reverb: Hall 1

Effect: Delay 3, time 1, depth 5