Hi all,

I'm about to pull the trigger on a Kawai RX-2 BLAK. Like many of you here, I started looking at a GM10 and finally talked myself into an RX-2 (after 5 hours of playing, a little talk from the dealer and reading these forums). I live in St. Louis, MO. The dealer is offering a price of $22k for a floor model that says has been there for only a week and they just got done prepping it. Minus the $1k auto-rebate by Kawai, I'm left with $21k before tax. According to the piano book, that's in the ballpark. He is also offering 6 months same as cash, free adult lessons for life and free 1st tuning. Is that a reasonable deal or should I push for more? I will ask for just a bit lower price, since it's a floor model (even barely) and an artist bench.

I've read some crazy low prices here for $16k, $14k, $18k etc. but they were posted much earlier and I'm not even sure if they were for a BLAK. If you have any advice, please let me know. I am planning on buying this month, before the Kawai rebate expires.

Thanks!

Welcome to the forum, George. The RX-2 is a nice piano. As for price, I take the super-low prices mentioned here with a hefty grain of salt. Sometimes they involve special circumstances, such as a one-time desperation sale or B stock, that can't be duplicated elsewhere.

As for wanting a lower price, there's no harm in making a counter-offer, but don't do it on the basis of the piano being a "floor model." Pianos are perhaps the only product where the floor model is what you WANT to buy, and the "new in box" can actually be worth less, because it will have received less prep. In fact, when you go back to seal the deal, make sure to record the serial number of the model you tried out and will be buying, and then double-check it on delivery.

I personally might ask for a reduction in price in lieu of the "free lessons for life." You'll probably want the freedom to search for and select the teacher that's right for you, which may or may not be the teacher affiliated with the studio. "Free lessons for life" aren't worth a dime if you don't get along with the teacher.

Great advice Monica. I have nothing to add

Here is a new RX-3 for $17,500

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=12762408&cat=&lpid=&search=baldwin%20grand

I say that you should be in the 19k price range.

Rx-2 for $15,500 it may or may not be a BLAK. But for 7K less I could live with that.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=12744239&cat=&lpid=&search=baldwin%20grand

You'd also have to live with no warranty. These are repos.

Thank you everyone for your answers. I am not extremely concerned in getting the best deal ever, but I just want to make the most out of my budget and not be totally ripped off. I wouldn't mind if it's within +$1,000 of the best deal I could get. Warranty would be important to me as well.

As for the lessons, I would negotiate with them on that. Maybe even ask for an artist bench. I am already planning on taking lessons at a more traditional school and using their song and chord learning classes, since they're free. I already talked to the teacher and he seems pretty nice. He is actually the same guy who is trying to sell me the RX2.

Since you are all so helpful here, I had some questions on teaching methods as well. I come from Greece and although I had taken classes for 10 years back in my youth, I haven't touched the piano in over 15 years. I understand teaching methods are different in the US and I'm sure they have probably evolved in the past 15 years as well. Which forum should I post to seek some advice on what general teaching methods are used in the US and what I should be looking for? I am planning on devoting some serious time (5-6 hours/week) to regain my technique and move on from there.

Thank you again very much for the multiple quick replies. I sure need all the help I could get in this fresh start with the piano.

George.

Doesn't the Blak already come with an adjustable artist bench? I seem to remember a photo; it had the Blak logo on the bench's adjustment knob.

That 'free lessons for life' is some deal--- I guess I could add up how much money lessons have cost me, but I'm afraid to look. It could be interesting if you could find out more details about that (and see what the sales contract says about it).

I've enjoyed my RX, and I wish you the same good luck with yours.

You can make some of your own good luck by giving it four tunings a year for the first couple, with a tech who can keep the regulation in adjustment as it gets 'played in.'

We're expecting photos--- might as well get some of the delivery and set-up while you have your camera out.

Hi Jeff,

On the floor, they just had a normal bench. I'm looking in spending hours on this new piano, so the artist bench would be better. I'll ask them again when I go to negotiate and buy the piano.

The lessons seem quite nice. They have a variety of classes for songs, classical, or whatever. You may switch between anything you want or take them all. And the deal is for both myself and my wife, which makes it even sweeter. We'll see how it goes when I actually try it out. I will be going there this Saturday to attend one of the classes and see.

Yes, I will definitely take lots of pictures and also compile a short video clip of delivery and setup. It will be at least a month until we get there, because we are moving to a new place and we close on Oct. 27. But I will definitely post when I get it.

Thanks for the help,
George.

Please read the ad. The pianos come with a 10 year warranty, tuning and bench.

"It is in new condition with no scratches or wear and tear of any kind. If you're looking for an incredible deal on a new Kawai piano, this is it. It comes with a 10 year factory warranty and a bench and 1 complimentary in-home tuning."

These are from a legitimate dealer that is selling out.

If it came from a Kawai dealer that went out of business, has it moved to another authorized Kawai dealer (who happens to post prices on classifieds)?

If you can't get an artist bench as part of the final deal, I would ask for one anyway. They should charge you only for the difference in price between the two benches.

Kawai's US website says the Kuro RX-2 comes with an 'adjustable artist bench,' but only for black finishes.

If you're paying the difference for a better bench, have a look at the manufacturer's option, and also look at a Jansen bench. When I bought my piano, I paid for a Chinese-made adjustable bench but found that it was skimpy in size, too narrow to be especially stable, and that the upholstery started popping buttons within a year (and that was 400 bucks extra). I ended up getting a Jansen later on, and wished I had done it in the first place.

Couldn't find any photos of the bench on the website--- wonder where I saw that photo. Oh well. Better to see them in person anyway.

For the record: I checked with Kawai and these pianos are not Blak series. The store is not an authorized Kawai dealer.
The dealer is also using the pianos to upset the market since he is not a Kawai dealer.
In terms of advertising "brand new/ repossess" it may have legal implications for false advertising. The pianos were purchased from a dealer going out of business and not from a source that previously repossessed the pianos. (they were not repossessed)

I would like to say kfb's "good will" is actually a disservice to readers since no Kawai dealer will sell any RX for these prices.
OTH I don't know if he has a reason to keep posting back trying to legitimize the sale of these pianos. One thing is just to provide info and another is to have an agenda.

What is the difference between the Kawai RX-2 BLAK and the previous non blak RX-2?

Just about a year or so ago my local dealer was selling the regular rx-2's for 14,500.

Had there been a 7.5k improvement, minus yearly cost increases?

I have no relation to the people or company selling the pianos. I just check prices since there are a lot of pianos for sale right now and I may be in the market if the price is right.

Riverton Music has been in business for over 40 years and is a reputable dealer in SLC area. They are Mason, Baldwin and Young Chang dealer. I never said they were a Kawai dealer only that they had new Kawai grand with a 10 year FACTORY warranty. My only aim is to make people aware that there are great deals out there. It's a buyers market.

The only reason that I posted a follow up was to correct gnuboi's mis info. When gnuboi claimed that they didn't have warranties I corrected his error. I never said that they were BLAK. I said that for 7K less I would rather have a non-blak model.

My belief is that every buyer and seller should do the best deal that they can. This is a buyers market.

My question would be for Kurtman is why the hostility? I brought up a great price on a new Kawai rx2 and rx3 Maybe you as a dealer don't want people to find out about great deals... Sorry. I have never said that this is the MSRP or this is the street price that everyone is selling them for. Those that follow the link will find the exact info I presented. Gnuboi presented the misinformation. I have been upfront, accurate and positive...Why the thin skin? I know times are tough out there for all of us.

If there is an error in my information or you have credible knowledge that Riverton Music is perpetrating a scam please be so kind and let us know. It is not my intent to provide misleading information.

Thanks,
KFB

IIRC you only get factory warranty from authorized Kawai dealers, so when I read "repo" I immediately jumped (ok ok perhaps way too quickly) to "no warranty"... of course I also learned recently that a Charles Walter from a non-CW dealer also came with factory warranty...

http://www.kawaius-tsd.com/PDF/Kawai10yr_warranty.pdf

Another scenario would be the transferability being in effect. Which means the pianos could be "used" and the warranty period has initiated... etc... we could speculate all day.

I totally agree that BLAK isn't worth $7k (that's a whole upright!) more, and in most cases, BLAK prices did not actually go up that much.

Here's the high points on the blak's upgrades--

Raised plate medallion, BLAK "Sen-Yo" hammers, MIII NINJA Action, longer regulation for action and damper, new soundboard decal,hard finish on music desk, die cast alloy action brackets, solid brass lower lid prop, plus double casters on #6 and #7, artist bench with BLAK logo on knob, higher grade plate finish, macore veneer rim liner, BLAK logo by lid prop, Acoustic Resonant Solid Spruce seal (more meticulous selection process), new finishes are espresso walnut, brown sapeli, rosewood with nickel hardware, and last but not least phenolic stabilizers on hammer shanks.

The blaks I've played sounded similar, but cleaner, building on the rx more than changing it, spiffier looking. While there's no apparent 7k difference in sound or touch, my experience was dealers are more apt to dig heels in on newer model pricing . . . no surprises there . . . the cream and sugar rx wasn't too shabby to begin with . . .

Mike

I've read somewhere in this forum that the difference between the later model of RX-2 and RX-2 Blak is purely cosmetic (nicer paint or polish or something like that). You may want to research a bit into this before deciding whether it is worth to pay the extra for the difference.

I bought my RX-2 last year and couldn't be more happy! I did have to get an adjustable and cushioned bench because the one that came with the piano makes my bottom hurt!

Good luck!

Just ignore all the dealers who freak out when you throw out numbers. Who cares - you'll get the price you get. Imagine car dealers flipping out on car enthusiast forums when people mention how much they bought a car for or how much they think they'll get one for. Hey, dealers are trying to get as much money out of you anyway.

Anyway, I think someone from Kawai posted about the changes in the Blak model if you dig around. My local dealer is pretty firm on Blak prices but is trying to sell me a new non-blak RX2 for a good price. For a blak, though, I doubt you could get 18k. I've seen them listed at 21k. You'd probably be lucky do better than 20k. I haven't played enough pianos to be able to tell the difference between the blak and non blak. If anything I like the non-blak action more, but wouldn't be surprised if the parts were all identical.

So far the RX series seems a bit mellow for me. However, I think the RX2 is easily one of the best pianos you can buy for $20k or under.

So, I called the person in Utah who claims to be a dealer to have this piano listed. They are indeed a dealer with a website. They do include this warranty and they quoted me $1000 to deliver the piano in my State.I have to admit it's a very tempting price, even though I confirmed it's not a BLAK model. I would prefer to make the purchase locally, but this difference in price is quite dramatic.

I will see if my dealer here can come a little closer. If he agrees to about $19k, I'll go with the locals. Not so much for the capabilities of the BLAK, but somehow I feel more secure if I buy from the local dealer (who also happened to be very nice).

Thanks everyone for your help. The prospect of buying this piano is really exciting

Jeff, you are right. The RX-2 I was looking at is a polished black piano. I don't know why the dealer told me they don't include the bench. I will point them to the site today and see what they have to say. Thanks for catching that.

The teacher's forum and Adult Beginners forum would both be appropriate and good places to post those kinds of questions.

I'll try to clarify this a little.

If a dealer goes out of business and sells inventory to another store, then this second store becomes the first owner of the pianos. The piano is no longer considered new - legally, it is a used piano. So this dealer in Utah appears to be misrepresenting the pianos.

The remainder of the factory warranty would be in effect on this type of piano, dating from Kawai's last record on the piano - which would be when we shipped it. If you write to me through the Kawai web site with the serial number, I can easily check the history on any piano we have shipped since about 1991.

Buying a piano from a distance from a non-authorized dealer is full of problems and risks. The remainder of the warranty may still protect the owner from factory defects, but there is no assurance that the piano will be delivered in good condition. More importantly, there is very little motivation for the selling dealer to make sure the piano is in good shape and that the end buyer is happy.

KFB, whether knowingly or not, what you quoted are used piano prices, so this is not comparable to new piano prices. This means that your posts are in error. When a new piano buyer asks for guidance on new piano prices, quoting this kind of unusual pricing is not replying to the original poster's question. This could have been done maliciously, or as I suspect simply negligently because you believed what the advertiser wrote. But the result is that you have spread misinformation. Just a little care and investigation before posting invalid pricing would have been a more responsible way to help the original poster.

But then, that's the internet! If you search, you can find just about any answer (right or wrong) to just about any question, because anyone can say anything they want, accurate or not! Then I can search for it, find what I am looking for, then re-post it and show that it must be true - I found it on the internet!

To make matters worse, these incorrect prices will be here on Piano World forever, and so in a year someone else will be searching for prices for a new Kawai grand, and wow, they will find these amazing low prices - which just happen to be invalid and posted in error. But there they are - it must be true - I found it on the internet!

Thanks for the correction... I was unaware that the pianos are technically used. I have nothing to gain or lose from any transaction, just trying to be helpful to those looking for a good piano.

It appears from your definition and/or Kawais policy that it's technically not a new piano because a non-authorized dealer purchased it. But from what I see and understand "for all intents and purposes" this is a brand new piano with the balance of a FACTORY 10 year warranty that goes with the sale. Of course any piano should be evaluated by an independent technician.

If you think that this is not a good opportunity to pick up a "Used" Kawai RX-2 then I am sure that with your Kawai expertise your opinion would carry considerable weight with those on this forum.

Considering the dealer in question is a reputable new piano dealer for more than 40 years, my opinion is that this is a nice deal for a "USED" piano with a considerable factory warranty remaining.

I think that many on the forum didn't realize the technical definition of a "used piano" as you explained it. Most probably believe that wholesale transactions between dealers does not make a piano "used". When a piano is sold to a buyer who takes it home is when most people believe that it is used, not merely moving from one showroom to another.

Thanks for enlightening.

Well, thank you very much all for the very informative and detailed answers to my question. I believe I will just try to get as best a deal as I can from my local dealer here. I'm also going to inquire about that bench. As per the site it should be included, but when I asked, the dealer said no. I'll clarify things this Saturday, when I go there again. That $15.5k for a "used" piano is definitely hard to pass up, though, let me tell you.

Thanks for the advice on the teaching forum. I will go seek some advice there as well. I really like this place

Some interesting turns in this story. I think it's a good thing you posted about it, George; maybe we've all learned a few things.

I can't tell you what you should do, but I can tell you what I did do: I bought a new RX-5 from a local, authorized Kawai dealer, and later added a Jansen bench (from the same dealer) and a nice House of Troy piano lamp from PW's sister site, http://pianosupplies.com .

There have been no warranty issues, but my seller was very helpful, and has continued to be; I still look in every so often, and bought an MP8ii DP from them a few years later. We negotiated a price that was fair and favorable to all parties, which I found satisfactory. The full, transferable ten-year warranty was registered in my name. The seller recommended an RPT to provide servicing, whom I still use; he's done a great job of bringing out the instrument's full potential and has kept it in excellent shape for me. The only shipping involved was the truck that brought the piano across town.

The only thing I'd do differently, I think, is that I might have gotten the RX-7 (and who knows, maybe even the SK-7, but with the plain legs); the bass gives me the shivers... but the couch would have had to go. At the time, I didn't quite dare spend that much more money.

I've been surprised at how much nicer the RX-2 and -3 models have gotten since then. They make more of them, so it may reflect incremental improvement based on more manufacturing experience. It's a guess. Anyway, you've picked a nice model, and I'm sure you can make decisions based on your own best interest, especially now that you have more full information.

I'll say one more thing: I was lucky, where I see quite a few buyers fall down. So, I'll wish you the same luck.

I believe you may be misunderestimating the population here. Most here would be quite certain that only an authorized dealer can sell a new piano with warranty. What was never clear was whether the SLC dealer was a factory authorized Kawai dealer. Now that we know they are not then the fact that Kawai's warranty is transferable is a good thing for potential buyers, but all the issues and concerns that Don raised remain.

I dropped by the showroom today and played the Kawai's. Very nice pianos. Still have all the warranty cards attached. I talked with the dealer, he said he would look up the year If I wanted. He thought they were 08-09 stock.

I don't really see too much risk or any real issues here but for me $7000 savings can buy a bit of risk.

It would be interesting if Kawai Don would share with us what percentage of Kawai RX instruments or owners ever need to get warranty support for their instruments. My guess is that the number is astronomically small. Kawai RX's are solid, precision built instruments. If something didn't go wrong at the first dealer and didn't go wrong at the second dealer, I would say you are good to go!


Exactly.