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From the KAWAY Professional Service Manual

Keys

Square and Space....Then space the keys by bending the front rail pin to one side or the other with a spacing tool....

Key Bushing

Front rail: Inspect keys by depressing each key fully and moving from side to side while holding the balance rail to prevent rocking at the balance rail bushing. There should be very slight lateral movement. Ease or re-bush keys as necessary.
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Another one that says to re-bush keys and says nothing about rotating front rail pins which are bended to space keys.

Front rail pins are bended to space keys, so if you rotate them there is indeed a damage: YOU ARE DISRUPTING KEY SPACING.

And you are using them to accomplish something they were not designed for.

I have just given you, pin rotators, the regulation procedures of five piano manufacturers from America and Asia, which recommend all of them to re-bush keys. And none of them talks about rotating pins. There is even one of them, SAMICK, who explicitly asks to re-turn any rotated pin to its "proper" position before doing any other adjustment. So they know there are technicians that rotate pins and they recommend to un-rotate them before doing anythinng else.

What more is needed to convince you that re-bushing is the one correct way to repair these loose keys?

Interestingly enough I have not run into a piano where the front pin was staked into an unmoveable position, something that can easily be done if there were any serious problems with rotating them that out weighed the benefits.

I'm not knocking the advice in manuals but just because it does not say to do something, does not mean it can't be done with successful results. As I mentioned before about microwave ovens, EVERY manual for them says to not put metal in them because of the danger of sparks or fire. Its written for liability reasons when dealing with people who may not have the ability to fully understand things. I been putting my metal coffee cup in them for 20 years without a problem because I understand what is going on and practical experience bears it out that it works and is safe.

Every automobile manual says to take your car to a dealer to be checked if the engine warning light comes up. To those who understand the nature of whats going on and what triggers temporary DTC codes, (eg, forgeting to tighten the gas cap) they can save themselves a load of money by ignoring the advice and allowing the code to reset itself on the next drive cycle. To those who don't understand whats going on...its best to follow the advice.

SAMICK asks to unrotate pins before doing anything else.

The fact that you don't know the consequences of what you are doing does not mean you are not causing damages.

Sorry for asking a dumb question, but how do you rotate the oval pins?

Do you just put pliers on them and twist? The ones I tried were very tight and I was afraid of breaking something.

On a related note I tried applying water to the bushings of a piano that really needs a rebushing. The felt expanded and after drying the keys were much better, though with less restoring force for lateral movements, since now we have less felt.

Kees

You see?

There is anotherone who wants to rotate pins instead of doing the right repair: re-bush keys.

This is the danger of talking about "band aid fixes" in a public forum: they are easier, faster and cheaper.

But please don't forget they are WRONG!

[quote=Gadzar]

I can find plenty of maufacturer advice from the past that has been changed, ommited or revised as time passes. Do you still put dag or graphite on knuckles? When a key slip bows in and touches the fronts of the center keys, do you shim the ends like some texts books suggest (and create a big ugly gap at the ends) or do you offset the center dowel like common sense tells you?

What is needed to convince me that re-bushing is the ONLY way to do this is solid evidence that damage can occur. Like I said before, rarely are the pins bent so much that turning them slightly will change the spacing. If it needs to be tapped over, so be it...adjusting key spacing if needed is not damage as you claim, neither is using up extra surface area of otherwise unused bushing cloth. Any piano that requires a huge amount of bending on pins to properly space keys is evidence of the pins not being located right in the first place or the mortises being poorly machined off center in the key.

I have never had a complaint from a customer who's piano has been adjusted this way. In fact, some of them compliment me on the fact that I gave them a viable option for a fraction of the cost to re-bush. After several years of extended use they seriously wondered why other techs told them they had no other option but to re-bush at much higher cost. Do you think it is right to make a claim that cannot be substantiated with fact? Re-bushing is NOT the only option if you simply want to extend the life of the bushing.

Kees. Good question. Any tool used on the sliding surface (i.e above the punching) of the pin runs the risk of scratching the pin and that will wear the bushing rapidly. All manipulation of this pin is done by lifting the punchings and working underneath them away from the active surface of the pin with a tool designed for the job. Do any of the service manuals mention this far more important point?

The pins are rotated down at the bottom below the cloth and punchings...never from the top. The pin needs to remain polished smooth or it will eat through the bushing. As I said before, I do plenty of rebushing. Some pianos don't warrant it if they are old and ready for the trash heap, others have customers that just want to buy some time until they can afford to rebush. The important thing is to explain to the customer what to expect from the repair and for the repair to bear it out.

Emmery,

Extracted from the Randy Potter Course of Piano Technology. Chapter 2: Repairs.

"If the front pin is turned, turn it back straight. Use your offset key spacer tool provided as part of your basic regulating tools. Turn the pin until the blade points front to back by placing your tool under the front rail punchings, so you do not scratch the pin. Someone may have turned the pin, hoping to make the key a little less wobbly. While this works temporarily to lessen the side play, it is only a temporary repair and usually results in first wearing out the remaining bushing felt, and then permanent damage to the bushing mortise. The correct way to fix a wobbly key is to replace the felt bushings, not turn the pin. The reason the pin is wide is not so we can turn it, but so the rubbing of the key against the bushing will be spread over a larger surface and will wear longer. Turning the pin crooked wears out the bushings prematurely, and can damage the key as the sharper edges of the blade will dig through the bushing and then into the wood.
While holding the key to keep it from wobbling sideways at the balance rail pin and the key button, wiggle the front of the key sideways. It should be free with a slight amount of play in it, about 0.3 mm, the thickness of a business card on each side. If it has excessive play the keys probably need the bushings replaced."

So, in fact when pins are turned there is a risk of permanent damage if the re-bushing is delayed for too long.

Of course your clients have not complained, they know less than you of piano technology.

If my client has no funds to re-bush, I prefer to leave the piano as is until he/she could afford the costs of the full repair, if pins are straight there is no risk of damage on the keys.

As a general rule, I prefer to do nothing instead of doing a "band-aid" repair. I think of it as as a waste of time and money, plus the risk of making things worst.

If the reason the pin is wide is so the key is to rub against a larger surface, then the pin should be flat and wide, as in the European pianos I have seen. You cannot turn those.


That will happen whether or not the pin is turned. It will happen faster if the bare spot on the felt hits the pin harder, which happens if the key is loose and moves side to side.

In any case, it is not permanent. Indentations in the wood will pop out when the mortise is moistened, which is the best way to remove the old felt. Actually, you may lose more of the mortise wood and cause more damage while removing the old bushing cloth. That damage is permanent.

Turning the pin may not work when the bushing is completely gone. The mortise may be too wide.

Yes, in all manuals I've read, they insist that the pin must be taken at the bottom, by lifting the punchings, in order to avoid scratching the sliding surface.

For instance SAMICK says:

"13. SPACING THE KEYS

The keys are spaced by bending, left or right, the front rail pins with a key spacing tool. Raise the cloth bushing and place the jaws of the tool at the bottom (not the top) of the pin. Bending the pin above the puching will damage the smooth pin."

Rafael:

Thanks for taking the time and doing a thorough job of quoting the manufactures and a well known course. I do not have such a library. This is a good way to avoid, “Yes it is! No it ain’t!” arguments.

Too bad none of your sources mention why the pin is oval shaped. That would be outside of the scope of a service manual.

It should also be noted that none of the manufacturers mentioned that damage could occur by turning the pins. And of course if you are servicing a piano in the best way possible, you would align the pins straight to determine if rebushing is appropriate.

Now I am not asking you to look anything else up, but there are surely other commonly used, non-destructive, repair procedures that are not mentioned in manufacturer’s manuals. I can’t be sure, because I do not have a library such as yours, but I doubt if bass string splicing, using business cards to shim the una corda, and using CA to restore a pinblock are approved manufacturer’s procedures.

So, thanks again for letting us all know that turning the pins is not a procedure mentioned in the manufacturer’s manuals for reducing the side play of the front of keys. I still believe it to be non-destructive and appropriate for many situations.

Gadzar, your missing the point that it is not the turning of the pin that can cause eventual damage to the mortise, it is the act of continuing to play the piano once the cloth has worn completely through. This damage can occur with, or without the pin turned. In fact this situation can happen to most parts or repairs on a piano once they have reached their full term of service and the piano is continued to be played. If I make a repair that lasts a couple years, causes no damage and costs little time or effort to do, I beleive I am protecting the piano and retaining my customers' loyalty better than if were to hold my nose in the air and walk away.

The customer may seek out another tech that spends 10 minutes rotating a few pins, solves the problem, prevents the damage from occuring and leaves the piano immediately ready to be played. That option does not sit well with me if it can be prevented.

By informing the customer to call when it gets too loose again and advising them that it can be done once more (rotating in the other direction) appeals to the frugal nature of some people who like to use something completely up before replacing. I actually show them the key, the pin and cloth and it is so common sense that they often wonder why other techs don't do it. These customers often value techs who are open minded to these solutions and they often get the feeling the other techs only do the costliest repairs because of greed, not perfection. After explaining the benefits and drawbacks of both solutions, I just let the customer decide which route they want to go. Some will re-bush, some will not.

Actually, having the pin in any position other than vertical also causes excessive wear on a bushing since one side will rub on the bushing over a smaller surface of the pin than the other as the key is pressed down. Do we leave the keys unspaced because of this? No, we choose the lesser of 2 evils and bend pins.

I have never had a mortise get damaged from this approach nor have I ever had a complaint or loss of a customer. It is because the repair is explained and the customer is aware of that it buys them a couple years at best. The text book approach to this is very polarized with an all or nothing attitude; those who choose otherwise (techs or customers) are simply more open minded.

I must add that common sense should always prevail over quoted text when problem solving. Take for example the following quote from Reblitzs' second edition Piano Servicing Tuning & Rebuilding (final sentence, chapter 4).

Controlling Insect Damage
"...If fumigation is recommended, find out whether the fumigant will harm the leather parts in the piano, and be prpared to replace them if necessary."

Many years ago almost all fumigants were dry phytotoxins mixed with a carrier (Methylchloride being the most common). Now the majority of aerosol fumigants are water based with synergized pyrethroids. Using any of these in the confined area of a piano will be safe for the leather but cause rust on anything metal and unprotected. The book does not tell you this but common sense should.

The first paragraph of the Chapter 2: Repairing of the Randy Potter Course is entitled:

"The importance of Good Repair Techniques"

It makes emphasis in the fact that there are different techniques to achieve one result, but there are indeed good techniques and questionable techniques, that have undesirable side effects.

For example to fix a gobbling hammer (loose flange): Do not repin with a bigger center pin, common practice, easier, faster and cheaper than rebushing, it can damage the bird's eye. Re-bush the flange. It is the natural way to go. The flange is loose because of the worn bushing, not because the center pin has become too small.

With a loose key, the problem is the same: the bushing is worn, so you don't have to shrink the mortise, nor make "bigger" the pin by rotating it, but you have to rebush with new felt.

But, all I have read in this thread so far shows me one thing: You are more concerned to prove that you are not wrong, than to find a good technique to repair pianos.

You want to show at all costs that you are right, even if you know you are wrong, you'll never admit it. So be it, continue to use questionable repair techniques!

I have still a lot to learn about good piano repair techniques from people with more knowledge and experience than me. The day I come to say I have nothing to learn will be the right time for retirement.

Emmery:

You have a good point about mortises becoming damaged with excessive wear. I can see turning the pins to prevent this from happening sooner. I have seen pianos where the bushing is worn away down to the wood, but only where the broadest part of the pins made contact. Much of the bushing was still intact, but not doing much good.

I did a budget-limited refurbishing on an institutional piano like this a few years ago. The most important things to accomplish were knuckle replacement, hammer shaping and regulation to make it playable. I did not turn the pins because of how it was frowned upon on this Forum. I have changed my mind since then. I should have turned them, and will next time I service this piano. Re-bushing is just not in the budget, so why not lessen further damage with a simple procedure?

Pianos need maintenance, if the owner has no budget to pay for it then he/she won't have a good working piano, no matter what technique you use.

In Jeff's example, where there is no budget for re-bushing, the institution's piano will be working better with turned pins than with straight pins.

Or won't it?

In fact, when playing a piano normally, would anyone notice a difference between re-bushed mortises and turned front rail pins?

If "yes", one may still argue the point about "good working piano".
If "no", the piano with turned pins is actually working just fine.

Jeff, I see many examples of techs following the advice of text books to the letter. I don't wrap ugly black thread around a shank repair or use slitted metal sleeves that rattle loose in a few years, both of which are advocated in Reblitz's book. Reblitz doesn't mention the alignment of the grain being front to back instead of side to side for a shank replacement(to prevent breakage), nor does he mention a drop test on a hard surface to determine the integrity of the replacement shank. The latest batch of shanks I got had almost a 1/4 of them tossed because they sounded dull with poor grain structure. They probably come from China.
Ultimately the difference between the best job that can be done and a lesser one is not always related to function, a fine quality piano quite also deserves the attention to detail (cosmetically)to make the repair unnoticable upon inspection.

Many rebuilders shun the use of oversize pins and advocate pin block replacement; the majority of older pianos out there don't warrant the cost of doing so.

Along the way many techs find a middle road approach like routing out a verticals' pin block and using an inlay. It bridges the gap between tossing a piano and having to spend a small fortune to save it. These approaches have always met resistance from the older ways until time proves them out to be useful and cost effective.