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#153734 - 05/09/06 04:14 AM Seiler or Sauter (upright)
RamRabbit Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/08/06
Posts: 2
Any advice on comparing Seiler 122 Konsole and Sauter 130COM/PE3T? My feeling is Seiler sound is much softer. Thanks

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#153735 - 05/09/06 11:00 AM Re: Seiler or Sauter (upright)
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13968
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Don't go by 'feeling' - go by *hearing*.

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#153736 - 05/09/06 05:19 PM Re: Seiler or Sauter (upright)
JohnEB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/20/06
Posts: 754
Loc: Belgium
I preferred a Sauter to a Seiler (but they were smaller models than you're trying). I've also been told that Seilers can be 'fragile' - meaning you will get a higher failure rate. But that's hearsay - I've not seen any data.
_________________________
John

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#153737 - 05/09/06 05:51 PM Re: Seiler or Sauter (upright)
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13968
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
You can never really go by *brand* in these quite comparable classes of pianos - but by individual model only - and the way it appeals to you.

Simple as that.

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#153738 - 05/09/06 09:37 PM Re: Seiler or Sauter (upright)
RamRabbit Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/08/06
Posts: 2
I have tried both in 2 different shops, so I couldn't compare side-by-side. For Sauter 120/PE3T, the keyboard is too "hard", and sound is less mellow. So, I moved to higher model. Only the Sauter Domino appeals me with its fast action keyboard, and sound "better".

For Seiler 122, the sound is very warm, and key is less "hard" than Sauter.

I don't know why model is good for my daughter, as I don't know piano.

BTW, what about Schimmel C120 and Steinberg IQ22?

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#153739 - 05/09/06 09:47 PM Re: Seiler or Sauter (upright)
Rich Y Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 30
Loc: SF Bay Area
I'm really suprised that anyone would call the Seiler Konsole sound to be soft. I've owned one for 4 years, and I would say that the sound is among the loudest for an upright. In fact, my main complaint is that it is much too loud, making it difficult to play pp or ppp. Even playing p takes special effort just to keep it under f. Maybe it's just that my fingers lack the gentle touch, but I really thought there was general agreement that the Seiler upright was just plain loud, regardless of its other virtues or failings.

Someone said the Seiler was prone to "failure". I'd like to know how it could "fail" -- is it likely to suddenly implode on me? If anything, the Seiler is over-heavily designed, making it a bitch to move, and its high tension design gives it that stentorian voicing. It was this solidity of design and construction that persuaded me to buy it, despite its loudness.

Rich Y

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#153740 - 05/09/06 10:22 PM Re: Seiler or Sauter (upright)
whippen boy Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 3886
Loc: San Francisco
If your piano is that loud, I'd think it would tend to explode before it would ever implode. \:D
_________________________
Grotrian 225
S&S Hamburg-C
M&H "A" at home

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#153741 - 05/09/06 11:55 PM Re: Seiler or Sauter (upright)
piannaman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 292
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
To say that Seilers fail is a huge generalization, not to mention a false statement. Piano failure would mean a cracked plate, or major rifts in the board, or an action where all the parts come unglued or break.

I've worked on many. Some have had problems, but none that can't be remedied. They are very strong pianos. The tone quality varies quite a bit from one to the next, but all the ones I've seen have a wide dynamic range.

I admit to having worked on 0 Sauters, so I cannot make any comparison between the two. Everything I've heard and read about Sauters has been good.

It's a good choice to have to make!

Rich, sounds like you need to have your tech regulate and voice your piano a little bit.

The thing I really like about pianos of this quality is that there is so much to work with; they start out good, and improve with proper care.
_________________________
Promote harmony in the universe...tune your piano!

Dave Stahl, RPT
http://dstahlpiano.net/
dstahlpiano@sbcglobal.net

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#153742 - 05/10/06 01:30 AM Re: Seiler or Sauter (upright)
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13968
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Sorry, but personally I find this duscussion bordering on the stupid.

Everybody knows that these are both great old German piano makers with almost 400 years of piano building experience between the both of them.

Here's my own advice: "buy none of them".

As I hear,the upper Chinese class are starting to gobble them up at amazing speed [P.S. either one...] and Dubai's new 7 star hotels are putting orders in for their grands even faster than they can be built.

I don't know about Seiler, but my own replacement orders for Sauters can't even seem to be filled until fall.

It's not exactly that these guys don't have customers....

Why not compare Peral River to Nordiska and get perhaps a more 'sensible' discussion going here?

Again.....

Norbert :rolleyes:
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#153743 - 05/10/06 03:11 AM Re: Seiler or Sauter (upright)
JohnEB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/20/06
Posts: 754
Loc: Belgium
 Quote:
Originally posted by Rich Y:
Someone said the Seiler was prone to "failure". I'd like to know how it could "fail" -- is it likely to suddenly implode on me? [/b]
That would be me. I'm just repeating what I was told be a salesman (not a Seiler salesman I should point out). He said Seilers were 'fragile' meaning not that the piano would implode, but that it would have a higher rate of mechanical problems. He couldn't provide me with any evidence to back this up. I didn't buy one, but not because of concerns over mechanical failure.
_________________________
John

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#153744 - 05/10/06 12:56 PM Re: Seiler or Sauter (upright)
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13968
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Seiler is my competition but I will tell you this:

"the salesman is full of ****"!

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#153745 - 05/10/06 01:42 PM Re: Seiler or Sauter (upright)
fong ll Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 92
Loc: Santa Clara
I have seiler 116 and it is most perfect piano. never play a sauter but did play a shimmel. shimmel nice but seiler much better and all my friend think i have best piano! Most of my friend have yamaha and some kawai but they all like mine best.

I am looking to buy a seiler grand soon, because my experience was so good with upright.

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#153746 - 05/10/06 01:47 PM Re: Seiler or Sauter (upright)
fong ll Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 92
Loc: Santa Clara
aone other thing, I never have one problem with my piano and it never even go out of tune.

my son is won all competition he enter and teacher say seiler is one reason, he play on grand in competition and are upright feel and sound like a grand.

I am big fan of seiler now and so is my teacher and tuner say it super piano to.

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#153747 - 05/10/06 03:13 PM Re: Seiler or Sauter (upright)
Jan-Erik Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/18/05
Posts: 1302
Loc: Finland
If you can afford a Seiler and the 122 model feels right for your daugther (mellow sound softer keys), then go for it. Espcially if you trust the dealer and is promised good after sale service (or then you use an independent tech - service and tuning you cannot avoid even when you byu a top tier piano)

Probably there are hundreds of pianos that are as good and may be cheaper (Chineese) but with the time German pianos will become rare and even more exclusive. And you will only get confused by all pianos you experience.

For several reasons I believe in Seiler making high quality instruments (that they have some kind of certification that other German factories do not have does not influence on me, although I have no other experience from Seiler than a factory video.


P.S. I am still surprised by the fact that - as you can read in the beginning of this thread - one manufacturer cannot make piano models with the same uniform touch. That the timbre and sustain varies a lot and that bass sound depends on string length is more agreeable.

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#153748 - 05/10/06 03:27 PM Re: Seiler or Sauter (upright)
Jan-Erik Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/18/05
Posts: 1302
Loc: Finland
To Rich Y: When I test a piano I first play p and pp. If that is easy then the piano will probably be suitable for a private home.

But sound and touch go together and cannot be evaluated separately. Piano dealers are prone to demonstrate the full volume, but a home is no big classroom. Home accoustics can also make the piano sound harder, as well as the opposite.

Normally grands have better actions, but I once tried a a new Schimmel baby grand on which I was unable to play pp. Very astonishing!

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#153749 - 05/10/06 05:25 PM Re: Seiler or Sauter (upright)
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13968
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
 Quote:
For several reasons I believe in Seiler making high quality instruments (that they have some kind of certification that other German factories do not have does not influence on me, although I have no other experience from Seiler than a factory video.
I wasn't aware that any German pianos were being sold by *certification*.

I thought their 150-200 years record was good enough........

Norbert \:o
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#153750 - 05/11/06 12:31 AM Re: Seiler or Sauter (upright)
piannaman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 292
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
Norbert,

It takes someone of impeccable ethics to admit that the competition is indeed worthy.....

Fong,

I seem to remember a post from you awhile back about not wanting to get your piano tuned, because it might get ruined.

I think your rights to a free tuning expired, and the piano has probably gone very flat by now. It's an excellent piano, to be sure, but excellent pianos go out of tune and out of regulation. Do yourself a favor--get it tuned! If your child gets used to hearing A4 at 438 hz., her sense of pitch will get skewed!

This is particularly frustrating to me because of all the Seilers I tune, and the fact the you and I live in the same town!
_________________________
Promote harmony in the universe...tune your piano!

Dave Stahl, RPT
http://dstahlpiano.net/
dstahlpiano@sbcglobal.net

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#153751 - 05/11/06 01:40 AM Re: Seiler or Sauter (upright)
Jan-Erik Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/18/05
Posts: 1302
Loc: Finland
Norbert: I am surprised by the fact that you do not have a glance at the brochures of your competitor.

Seiler boosts of beeing the one and only German piano producer having some kind of (I do not remenber) ISO or TÜV approval.

No certificate on manufacturing practises will guarantee good sound and most instruments including top instuments like hte Stradivarius violins have been built before the era of certification (a big business itself). I personally appreciate more the experience and tradition.

Regular tuning is good for all instruments and highly recomnendable. On the other hand you do not have absolute pitch an A of 438 Hz is no catastrophy

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#153752 - 05/12/06 11:23 PM Re: Seiler or Sauter (upright)
piannaman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 292
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
True, Jan-Erik...but having an expensive, new German upright that sounds crummy because it hasn't been maintained is a waste. It isn't just a matter of the pitch being 8-10 cents flat.

People get used to what they have. A couple of years ago, I serviced a brand new Kawai upright, never-been-tuned, out-of-the-crate. The piano sounded like goose farts. Bass and mid range were 20 cents or more sharp, treble 20 cents flat.

I pitch raised and tuned it, and it ended up sounding pretty good by the time I got out of there. The owner said, "is that what it's SUPPOSED to sound like?" He'd gotten so used to a badly out of tune piano that an in-tune piano sounded alien to him.

That isn't the standard, and it isn't what kids should get used to.

Harmonious, in-tune instruments create beauty. That's what we're all after when we play, isn't it?
_________________________
Promote harmony in the universe...tune your piano!

Dave Stahl, RPT
http://dstahlpiano.net/
dstahlpiano@sbcglobal.net

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#153753 - 05/12/06 11:28 PM Re: Seiler or Sauter (upright)
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13968
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
 Quote:
Norbert: I am surprised by the fact that you do not have a glance at the brochures of your competitor.
I hardly even know our own.

Good and outstanding products have little need for printed back up propaganda.....

Norbert \:o
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#153754 - 05/13/06 01:26 AM Re: Seiler or Sauter (upright)
NorthAmerican Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/03
Posts: 340
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
 Quote:
Edited excerpt from post by Jan-Erik:
Norbert: I am surprised by the fact that you do not have a glance at the brochures of your competitor.

Seiler boasts of being the one and only German piano producer having some kind of (I do not remember) ISO or TÜV approval.[/b]
In fact, here's the text from the Seiler brochure:

"...Seiler is the only manufacturer all of whose models possess the 'Quality-Seal RAL German Pianos' of quality, awarded only after rigorous quality inspections."

I don't recall the dealer's mentioning the "quality seal" when I was trying the Seiler that I later bought; he just let the sound speak for itself.

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#153755 - 05/13/06 01:40 AM Re: Seiler or Sauter (upright)
Wzkit Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 1005
Loc: Singapore
My impression of Seiler uprights (132 Konzert) was quite positive...light, shallow and responsive action that made fast and soft playing effortless. Tonally most Seilers I have seen tend to be on the bright and clear sounding (but still easy to play softly), somewhat similar to Schimmels.

Sauter uprights (specifically the 130 competence) are quite different altogether. Tonally I found them more interesting, with a much more robust and powerful sounding tone, clear and brilliant, with perhaps more overtones. I wouldn't say a Sauter upright isn't capable of the subtleties though - its just a different kind of subtlety one is talking about.
_________________________
Sauter 185 Delta with accelerated action and burl walnut fallboard

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