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#705262 - 01/30/05 07:12 AM Fahrenheit 9/11
Takeshi_Jay Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 7
Do people believe this documentary? I kinda do, in a way. The movie definitely proved it's point. Also, for those living in England, had a chance to see it on TV on Channel 4. This was a terrible attack and I doubt anybody would ever forget this. New York will never be the same.
_________________________
How YOU Doin'?

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#705263 - 03/24/08 05:57 PM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
luapparc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Massachusetts
Not only do I believe the movie Fahrenheit 9/11, I believe a lot worse.

You see, immediately after 9/11 it was considered unpatriotic, indeed even evil, to suggest any of the following opinions:

1) The wtc disaster was not orchestrated by Osama Bin Laden

2) Iraq had no connection with Al Quaeda or the 9/11 disaster.

In my heart of hearts, with an intimate familiarity as a veteran with my country, with what I have done in its name, and with what it has continued to do around the world since I left the military, I did believe the above opinions were true, and as a result I suffered humiliation, verbal and physical hostility, and loss of friends. I was threatened that my home would be burned down if I did not remove a sign that showed that I did not support the invasion of Iraq. Reluctantly I removed it for the safety of my family. I was forced to admit that I did not live in a free country. And it’s not just me. I'm no hero. But look at what happened to the Dixie Chicks and what they did in response. And who do you think is right today?

Immediately following 9/11 Americans believed they were attacked, and they wanted revenge. In true American style they didn’t even care to whom that revenge was directed. They just wanted blood, John Wayne style. There was no reasoning. Almost all Americans blamed the Muslim world, which they called evil.

As the years passed, most Americans have realized that at least one of above opinions (the second one) was very true all along. Iraq and Sadam Hussein had absolutely nothing to do with the 9/11 disaster or with Al Quaeda, and the government knew it. I predict that a time will come when most Americans will also realize and admit that the first above opinion was also true all along.

I am not young. I remember Kennedy’s assassination as if it were yesterday. That was the first time in my life that I realized I lived in a country that was so evil that would murdered its own president in broad daylight because he was viewed, not by the public, but by certain powerful individuals in both government and industry as not acting in the best interests of America, which of course was the best interests of themselves. No, Oswald did not do it. Yes, there was a security stand-down ordered from the highest levels of authority in the country. Yes the vehicle was fired on from multiple directions. And finally, yes, the evidence is staring at you right in the face.

So too today with 9/11, the evidence is staring at you right in the face. There were explosives placed in the World Trade Center prior to 9/11, these explosives were systematically detonated to make it appear that aircraft driven by Islamic terrorists took the buildings down, and yes, there was a milirary stand-down in order to allow these things to happen. I recommend that you go beyond Michael Moore’s film, which just scratches the surface, and look at documentaries like “Loose Change”, “Painful Questions” and many others which are all viewable on YouTube.

The good news about your post is that it was made almost two months ago and you have not been hit by a deluge of extremists calling you a commie, terrorist, or just unpatriotic. Perhaps no one has really noticed your post, or perhaps it means that America's period of insanity and irrationality may be passing and people are beginning, just beginning mind you, to realize that everything that Michael Moore said in his film has turned out to be true. Sadly, even more than that is true.
_________________________
When a door is partially open, it is ajar. So, when a jar is partially open why isn't it adoor?

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#705264 - 03/24/08 09:26 PM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Fraggle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 384
Loc: Nottingham, U.K.
It is impossible to keep such a large scale operation secret for all this time under such scrutiny, without anyone talking. That is what is staring me in the face.
_________________________
Will

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#705265 - 03/25/08 04:32 AM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
luapparc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Massachusetts
 Quote:
Fraggle wrote:
It is impossible to keep such a large scale operation secret for all this time under such scrutiny, without anyone talking. That is what is staring me in the face.
You'd think so. However there are simply too many examples in history that contradict that. Before rejecting out of hand the idea that 9/11 was a "false flag" operation, why not look at the photographic evidence that exists online. I don't think it takes a demolition expert to see that the buildings, especially building 7, are falling as a result of controlled demolition.

And even if you are unwilling to consider that, what about the explosions that occured in the lower basement that blew the windows of the lobby out a few seconds before the aircraft actually hit. And if you don't believe the timing evidence, answer how an aircraft slamming into the building at the 85th floor could blow the windows out in the lobby on the ground floor, and not blow out any windows in between? There are plenty of documentaries that show the destruction in the lobby and that show people who were injured by flying glass, people who had been walking outside the building near the windows at the time of the explosion. The evidence of a very large explosion occurring at the base of the building independent of the aircraft crash is overwhelming. It's staring at you in the face! Then ask yourself, "Who is more likely to plan and implement the simultaneous events of a plane crashing into the 85th floor and a very large explosion at the base of the building, some guy living in a cave on the other side of the world, or the CIA?"

Sometimes I think that the reason such operations succeed is the unwillingness of most people to even consider that their own government is not only capable, but very willing to conduct such evil operations. The evidence that 9/11 was a false flag is not a secret. The photographic evidence is all over the internet. However, people's fear keeps them from acknowledging the evidence. And those few people who do have real knowledge won't talk for the simple reason that they themselves are guilty of playing a part in it.

The very same was true of Kennedy's assassination. There is photographic evidence that the president's vehicle was fired on from the front. Yet, the official story ... well, you know the rest.

Since you are in the UK, are you aware of the fact that your media in your country announced the falling of Building 7 a full 23 minutes before the event actually happened? The irony is that as the anchor woman announces it live from New York with the skyline in her background, you can see Building 7 behind her and it is still standing. That video is also on the internet. Of course someone at the time who was familiar with the New York skyline realized it, informed the right people, and the circuit was cut just in time so the collapse of the building would not be viewed live on British television occurring after it was announced, which would bring to people's attention the fact that someone knew ahead of time that the building was going to fall. How could that even happen if it was not planned in advance? Who cut the circuit? This also raises a question about the heavy scrutiny that you mention. It turns out that the British newscast went completely unnoticed for two years. Although it was broadcast on British television on the day of 9/11 for everyone to see, no one noticed it. It took two years to be recognized. It was eventually discovered by a researcher looking at archived news videos. No matter how many times we look at something, often our internal fears of the evil truths in this world prevent us from seeing the obvious.

The US government orchestrated the 9/11 disaster in order to justify the invasion of Iraq, which it had previously planned, in order to gain control of the world's oil supplies. Of course some people of muslim decent were used as unsuspecting actors in the operation to help make it seem like a terrorist attack, just as how Oswald was used as an actor for the assassination of Kennedy.

If you question whether the US government is capable of evil, false flag operations, remember how the invasion of Vietnam war was authorized. President Johnson orchestrated a false flag operation in the Bay of Tonkin, which convinced Congress to authorized and finance a large scale invasion. It turns out that the incident never occurred. It was a complete and outright lie. Fifty thousand American lives were lost in a war that had no basis other than supporting the military industrial complex. This of course was the whole reason Kennedy was assassinated in the first place. Kennedy was going to pull out of Vietnam. But now, even after the recent release of documents that prove that the Bay of Tonkin was a false flag, no one seems to care. Fifty years from now no one will care about the over 1,000,000 Iragi lives lost and 4,000 American lives lost (so far) in the immoral invasion of Iraq that was justified by the false flag operation that we call the 9/11 disaster.

By the way, one of the best ways to keep a false flag operation away from the attention of the general public is to kill anyone who even threatens to disclose it. Ever wonder why many of the eyewitnesses to Kennedy's assassination met with mysterious deaths shortly after the event? Check it out. A country that is capable and willing to murder its own president in broad daylight is certainly capable and willing to orchestrate the 9/11 disaster.

When I was in the military we had a saying, "Before you die you will realize that everything you were rasied to believe about God and your country is an outright lie." It was a lesson that I realized the day Kennedy was assassinated. It was a lesson that remains with me to this day.
_________________________
When a door is partially open, it is ajar. So, when a jar is partially open why isn't it adoor?

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#705266 - 03/27/08 04:02 PM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
luapparc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Massachusetts
I just saw an ABC news report where forensic scientists claim that there were multiple shooters and RFK’s assassination. More evidence staring at you in the face! It never ends.
_________________________
When a door is partially open, it is ajar. So, when a jar is partially open why isn't it adoor?

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#705267 - 03/27/08 06:03 PM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Fraggle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 384
Loc: Nottingham, U.K.
With regards to the evidence of the use of explosives in the towers, I imagine that you`ve already heard the rebuttals I could offer so there`s no need to cover old ground.
I am quite willing to believe that governments are capable of this sort of thing but not if their security is so tight that foreign news anchors are in on it \:D
_________________________
Will

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#705268 - 03/27/08 08:14 PM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
luapparc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Massachusetts
 Quote:
Fraggle wrote:
I am quite willing to believe that governments are capable of this sort of thing but not if their security is so tight that foreign news anchors are in on it
I don’t think the British press was “in on it” at all. They simply received a report, from whom I do not know, that Building 7, which the British refer to as the Solomon Building, had collapsed when in fact it was still standing. Here is a link to the broadcast:

British Broadcast

My hunch is that during the approximate twenty minutes that the broadcast was being made, someone, either in England or here in USA, noticed that the building was still standing behind the commentators head and advised the media. From there it probably traveled up the management chain to some point where an order was issued to cut the circuit. It doesn’t even prove that whoever ordered the circuit cut had any knowledge of any organized military operation to destroy the World Trade Center in progress at the time. It’s quite conceivable that they simply did not want to suffer the embarrassment of reporting the news out of sequence with the time in which it actually happened. Perhaps such details will never be known for sure. It’s also possible that a CIA agent in England noticed the error and reported it to higher command. But it doesn’t really matter how the error was reported. My nagging question is, “Who the heck reported to the British press in the first place that the building was going to fall a full 23 minutes before the event actually happened?” That information had to have come from somewhere.

Incidentally, there is plenty of evidence that a lot of people at the crash site knew ahead of time that Building 7 was about to collapse. Many firefighters were videotaped warning people to clear the area because the building was about to fall. These videos are posted on YouTube.

The real problem with the Building 7 aspect of the World Trade disaster is that if Building 7 was in fact destroyed by control demolition, there had to have been a plan to do so well in advance of the actual aircraft attack. It takes weeks to set up all the proper explosives to pull down a building like that. So who set those explosives? Certainly that is something that is beyond the capability of some Arab living in a cave on the other side of the world.

A very similar media error occurred at the time of Kennedy's assassination. There was a newspaper, I believe it was in the Phillipines - but I'm not sure, that announced Kennedy's death a short time before it actually occurred. These kinds of logistic mistakes are common in such false flag, military operations.

 Quote:
Fraggle wrote:
With regards to the evidence of the use of explosives in the towers, I imagine that you`ve already heard the rebuttals I could offer so there`s no need to cover old ground.
I actually have not heard any legitimate rebuttals against the theory that explosives were used in any of the buildings. Well yes, there is the pancake theory, but I don’t accept that as a legitimate explanation. My personal experience with this subject is that most people I mention it to do not actually look at the evidence. They simply become enraged at me for raising the subject. But if you do have some rebuttals that explain how the glass windows in the lobby at the ground floor were blown out, or how Building 7 collapsed, as well as a wide variety of questions that documentaries like “Loose Change” and “Painful Questions” raise, I would certainly like to hear them.

With regards to explosions at the towers themselves, here are a couple links:

Explosive Video

Another Explosive Video

This second link starts by showing a firefighter talking on the phone and suddenly you hear a large explosion. The evidence that an explosion occurred is indisputable. What could explain that explosion?
_________________________
When a door is partially open, it is ajar. So, when a jar is partially open why isn't it adoor?

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#705269 - 03/28/08 06:14 PM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Fraggle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 384
Loc: Nottingham, U.K.
You mention the main argument in your post above - enough explosives to fell an unweakened building would have created a HUGE blast. Weakening the building for demolition involves cutting major structural members and could not be accomplished on an occupied building without it collapsing, I can find no qualified testimonial that indicates otherwise.
With regards to the windows being blown out at the base of the tower, I don`t think that means anything when the whole structure is coming down. Vibrations perhaps? Air pressure from the piston effect of the upper floors descending?
Finally, the fact that the firefighters knew of the collapse in advance really means nothing either - they are trained to recognise the signs.
_________________________
Will

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#705270 - 03/29/08 03:41 PM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
luapparc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Massachusetts
 Quote:
Fraggle wrote:
You mention the main argument in your post above - enough explosives to fell an unweakened building would have created a HUGE blast.
The total explosive power may be HUGE, but when distributed around the building it is not noticeably so, especially where the supporting structure is in the center of the building. The collapse of Building 7, which you can view on the internet, appears exactly like the controlled demolition of similar buildings that you see often on the news.

 Quote:
Fraggle wrote:
With regards to the windows being blown out at the base of the tower, I don`t think that means anything when the whole structure is coming down.
The windows were blown out a few seconds BEFORE an aircraft hit and about 40 minutes before the building collapsed. I wish I could dispense with this aspect of the event as flippantly as you do. But I cannot. I am reminded of a popular documentary about 9/11 (I believe I saw it on NPR) that contains interviews with Mayor Guliani. In it he states how when they entered to lobby to set up a command center, they were puzzled by the type of destruction that they saw. His words were, “Obviously a major event had occurred in the lobby.” The documentary showed video taken from inside the lobby. It was clear that a massive explosion had occurred in close proximity. That’s what I mean when I say the evidence is staring at you in the face! Despite the fact that the mayor has spoken of this event in a documentary, and the despite the video evidence of the event, the official 9/11 story does not even recognize that any event ever took place at the base of the building. But the Internet contains lots of evidence. Indeed, there is even a janitorial person who experienced the blast and survived, and has spoken openly about it. Of course his experience in not considered in the official 9/11 story.

 Quote:
Fraggle wrote:
Finally, the fact that the firefighters knew of the collapse in advance really means nothing either - they are trained to recognise the signs.
There were no signs that Building 7 was going to collapse. It was relatively undamaged and contained only minor fires. There is photographic proof of that. Again, it’s staring at you right in the face.
_________________________
When a door is partially open, it is ajar. So, when a jar is partially open why isn't it adoor?

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#705271 - 03/29/08 05:08 PM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Fraggle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 384
Loc: Nottingham, U.K.
Why would they detonate an explosive at the base of the tower before the `plane hit? Why would they expose themselves so? Why would they even use explosives instead of just crashing the `planes into the towers? Are you seriously suggesting that every individual involved in the clean-up was involved? What about the British news broadcast? Do you think that after all this s00per^5ekrit planning they would be so stupid as to accidentally tell some journalists that the building had collapsed just before they blew it up?
_________________________
Will

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#705272 - 03/29/08 09:22 PM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
luapparc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Massachusetts
 Quote:
Fraggle wrote:
What above the British news broadcast? Do you think that after all this s00per^5ekrit planning they would be so stupid as to accidentally tell some journalists that the building had collapsed just before they blew it up?
I assume you wanted to say “What about…” not “What above…”. Well, did you see the video that I provided showing the British news commentator announcing the collapse of the building with the building clearly visible in the background?

To me that broadcast demonstrates that someone knew that the building was going to collapse before it actually did. If someone knew that, and because the building was under no physical stress at the time to cause such an event, it would have to mean that someone was going to intentionally take it down using controlled demolition, just like they take down all such buildings when they need to. Can you give me a believable explanation that would convince me otherwise? Please do so if you can. And I guess it also means that yes, they were stupid enough to tell someone about it before they actually blew it up. Indeed, that is typical of such false flag military operations.
_________________________
When a door is partially open, it is ajar. So, when a jar is partially open why isn't it adoor?

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#705273 - 03/29/08 10:18 PM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Fraggle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 384
Loc: Nottingham, U.K.
It just seems like a ridiculous idea to me.
_________________________
Will

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#705274 - 03/30/08 09:42 AM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
luapparc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Massachusetts
 Quote:
Fraggle wrote:
It just seems like a ridiculous idea to me.
What do you find ridiculous, looking at the video that proves that the British media found out about the Building 7 (Solomon Building) collapse before the event actually occurred, or blowing up the building in the first place?

I don’t think it’s ridiculous to look at the video. I think everyone in this world has a responsibility to themselves and to their country to be aware of and to interpret world events. For example, in your country there is the famous “Downing Street memos”. You must have some thoughts about that?

Concerning blowing up the building, yes, it is a ridiculous thing to do. But history shows that governments consistently do ridiculous things. Tony Blaire in your country supported Bush’s invasion of Iraq. That was clearly a ridiculous thing to do. Although that is easier to say that now in hindsight, it was clear to many before the invasion. I heard that in England there was massive demonstration against the war before the actual invasion. Is that true? If so, what do you think about that? Also, considering the Downing Street memos, it was also dishonest for Tony Blair to support Bush’s invasion.

Perhaps what you think is ridiculous is the whole idea that the World Trade Center disaster is a false flag operation, false flag being a terrorist military operation performed by a government towards its own country and blaming it on some outside country or group in order to justify some action, like perhaps the invasion of another country, or to gain more authority over its own population? Well, I would agree with you that it is ridiculous, but it routinely happens in many countries and particularly here in the USA. The assassination of President Kennedy, the Bay of Tonkin (leading to the Vietnam war), and the World Trade disaster are most prominent. There are others as well. Sometimes they actually accomplish their intent for some people, as in the assassination of President Kennedy for the FBI, the CIA, Vice-President Johnson (I will never acknowledge him as a president), and of course thousands of people throughout the military industrial complex. Sometimes false flag operations lead to disastrous wars, as in the Bay of Tonkin. Since the Iraq war is still in progress I suppose you could argue about whether the World Trade disaster as a false flag operation was a success or a failure, but personally I consider it to be a massive failure, perhaps the worst in our nation’s history. Of course neoconservatives, the Bush administration, the oil companies, and companies like Halliburton and Blackwater think differently than I do. They think I’m ridiculous. But they are all part of the power structure, and I am not. So their opinion prevails. And so the world turns.

By the way, you have not given me a reasonable explanation for the British media finding out ahead of time about the collapse of Building 7, or for the numerous examples of explosions occurring at the base of the buildings at the World Trade Center. Of course, you don’t really have to. Although I admit your replies have encouraged me to write more, I’m not writing these long postings because of you, really. You see, I am in the very later stages of my life. I am now completely bed ridden and I require the services of visiting nurses to keep me alive. That is soon to end. This series of postings has helped me pass some idle time as well as form my last final personal thoughts and judgments about the world and the miniscule part that I have played in it during my lifetime. You should know though that these thoughts are far more encompassing than the very few aspects of only the one world event that we have been discussing here.

Since you were not impressed with my previous links, here is one from the CBC, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.

CBC Documentary

This may not convince you yourself of anything, but at least it should make you aware that there are a great many people, some prominant intellectuals, who believe that the World Trade Center disaster was a false flag operation orchestrated by the United States government.
_________________________
When a door is partially open, it is ajar. So, when a jar is partially open why isn't it adoor?

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#705275 - 03/31/08 08:51 PM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Fraggle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 384
Loc: Nottingham, U.K.
I think the conspiracy theorists should focus on trying to prove that the government knew there would be a large scale act of terrorism and did nothing, a plausible hypothesis in my opinion but there just isn`t the evidence to suggest direct involvement. It`s all just seeing-patterns-in-the-clouds and bullshine.

The windows weren`t blown out just before the `planes hit, they were blown out AS the `planes hit which is not in the least bit surprising. In a collision with such enormous energy involved anything could happen.
Why would they crash the `planes when they`d already placed explosives? Why not save time and effort by just setting them off one lunchtime?

All the British news report `evidence` suggests to me is that a reporter mixed up in the most staggering event imaginable made some mistake or jumped the gun and misreported the event. Is that really surprising? Perhaps the firefighters were warning people that the building was in a state of imminent collapse and that information was mis-interpreted by the time it reached the anchor.

Why did Al-Qaeda take responsibility if they didn`t do it?

I don`t think it`s ridiculous because I believe that governments are incapable of this sort of thing, I just think it`s ridiculous to claim that these three buildings were rigged for demolition, in secret, without anyone knowing anything about it. There`s nothing to suggest it was anything but what it appeared to be: an act of terrorism perpetrated by some uncivilised middle-eastern people.

Since my last post I have read through page after page of conspiracy websites and such until my brain went runny and I was disappointed. I did enjoy the South Park 911-truth episode though \:D
_________________________
Will

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#705276 - 05/07/08 05:29 PM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Stilamazed Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 92
Loc: New Jersey
luapparc,

You're free to believe whatever you wish. But, you're theory about what actually took down those buildings... I have to ask, where were you when it happened? I was about two blocks away, and anyone who tries to tell me that jets did not slam into those buildings... is less than retarded. Like i said, believe what you will, but don't blame me for seeing the TRUTH with my own eyes. I must admit, i do not have the type of FIRST HAND knowledge that can only be obtained by watching a movie, but maybe someday i'll be as ENLIGHTENED as you. As for michael moore, anyone with a sixty inch waist is a glutton, and therefore should not tell ANYONE what to think, or how to behave.

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#705277 - 05/08/08 12:11 PM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
luapparc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Massachusetts
 Quote:
Stilamazed wrote:
anyone who tries to tell me that jets did not slam into those buildings... is less than retarded.[/b]
I agree with your opinion, although not your choice of words (I tend to refrain from calling people retarded). I never said that planes did not crash into the buildings, and there is plenty of photographic proof that that did occur. I have never heard it suggested by anyone that planes did not crash into the buildings. Although, you never know. For example, years ago my father thought that the US landing on the moon was faked as a strategy in the cold war. Perhaps there are some individuals who feel that no planes struck the building, but I am not one of them.
 Quote:
Stilamazed wrote:
I was about two blocks away[/b]
You have no idea how much I envy you. Not because you were witness to a great tragedy and the resulting pain that you may feel, but because had I been there I might have seen something that might help suppress this aching feeling in my heart that my government played a role in orchestrating the tragedy, and is getting away with it. But who knows, if I had been there I might have seen something that may have made my heart ach even more.

I envy you in the same way that I envy those who happened to be at Dealey Plaza in Dallas Texas on November 22, 1963. Hopefully I might have seen something to help suppress this aching feeling in my heart that my government just murdered its own president in broad daylight, and has gotten away with it. But who knows, if I had been in Dealey Plaze I might have seen something that may have made my heart ach even more.

The many, many questions I have about 9/11 are simple, and I am not alone in asking them. Below list only a few:

Is the collapse of the towers due to the plane crashes, or were the plane crashes orchestrated in order to disguise how they were really brought down? There is much photographic evidence to suggest that the crashes did not cause the buildings to structurally fail. There is much photographic evidence to suggest that the resulting fires were not hot and could not have weakened the building. There is much photographic evidence to suggest that the speed of collapse of the buildings was too fast to be explained by the “official” pancake theory.

Why were there explosions at the base of the buildings, one even occurring several seconds before the plane hit the building?

Why were the windows in the lobby blown out? Could a plane crashing into the building at about the 85th floor blow windows out in the lobby and not on any other floors in between?

Why didn’t the mayor use his special command center built in building 7?

Why did Building 7 collapse? The official enquiry did not even investigate it.

Why is there photographic proof that the British announced on their television network that Building 7 collapsed more than twenty minutes before the event actually occurred?

Why was all the building material, and hence the evidence, carted away under high security? So it could not be analyzed for thermite? Indeed, some photographs of the towers show the possibility of thermite being used.

Why was there no aircraft debris at the site of the Pentagon crash?

Why do the only published photos of the Pentagon crash show no aircraft?

Why did the Bush administration resist an investigation.

Why were families who were compensated required to promise to never take legal action against the government in this matter?

Going back to the Kennedy assassination, I was not there. However, it was evident to any observant citizen that the vehicle had been fired on from the front and the government went out of its way to conceal that fact. Similarly in the 9/11 disaster, any observant citizen can see from the public record that the government is hiding a great deal.

As a witness to the event, what are your feelings about the event and what are your reactions to my questions? Surely not all my questions are, to use your words, “retarded”?

But since you were a witness to the event, I would like to ask you one question. Why is it that most witnesses do not approve of people asking legitimate question about it? Is it because it is too painful to think about?

Like most citizens of any country, I do not like to harbor thoughts that my government does such evil things as destroy it own buildings and in the process murder its own citizens for the sake of getting congressional approval to wage war around the world for corporate greed and oil. However, I see no way to feel otherwise.

To me the most likely scenario is that the so called terrorists were taking part of a much more extensive military operation conducted by the US government to destroy the World Trade Center. The terrorists may have been patsies in the same way that Oswald was a patsy in President Kennedy’s assassination. I would love to think otherwise, but I cannot.
 Quote:
Stilamazed wrote:
Like i said, believe what you will, but don't blame me for seeing the TRUTH with my own eyes. I must admit, i do not have the type of FIRST HAND knowledge that can only be obtained by watching a movie, but maybe someday i'll be as ENLIGHTENED as you.[/b]
I never claimed to be ENLIGHTENED in this subject. Indeed, I cannot seem to find any legitimate answers to any of my questions. Indeed, why does the fact that I ask questions cause you to sarcastically accuse me of considering myself more enlightened than you? I certainly don’t feel that way.

And if you know the TRUTH, as you say, can you please help me and answer some of my questions?

I must admit, whenever I speak to people like yourself they seem to think that because they were witnesses to the event that I should, perhaps out of respect, not ask any questions at all.

There is an old saying, “You don’t have to be a plumber to know that there is something wrong with your kitchen sink” Similarly, I do not have to know what really happened to know that the story I have been fed by my government is very flawed.
 Quote:
Stilamazed wrote:
As for michael moore, anyone with a sixty inch waist is a glutton, and therefore should not tell ANYONE what to think, or how to behave.[/b]
You may have a lot of dislike for Michael Moore, but in order to refute anything that he presents in his documentary films you would have to analyze deeper than the fact that he is overweight. Did you know that 60% of Americans are overweight? Do you think that 60% of Americans are gluttons? No, on second thought, don’t answer that.
_________________________
When a door is partially open, it is ajar. So, when a jar is partially open why isn't it adoor?

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#705278 - 06/22/08 02:04 AM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
'fredo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 45
Loc: San Bernardino, California
Lol really if the government did it, I don't think we'd know. They'd have eliminated the guy who came up with the theory 6.3 seconds after he posted it.
_________________________
I know the music ups and down.

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#705279 - 10/13/08 08:07 PM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Horwinkle Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 1011
Michael Moore is more than a little bit looney.

His "facts" are dubious at best, spurious usually, and generally used out of context.
In his films, you only get "his" mutated views.

His works are reviewed far and wide. Have a look. His works just don't stand up to scrutiny.

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#705280 - 11/13/08 04:42 PM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
ManyHandedMusician Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 71
Loc: North-central Minnesota
I can kinda agree with the facts. My godmother thinks that the 9/11 thing is a bit of a conspiracy. She says, "Did you notice how the first building fell? it fell straight down like when construction crews destroy buildings, like whoomp. But I think it should've toppled sideways at a diagonal from the way the plane hit it." I can see that, but I dunno...*she's kinda wierd occassionally..* But the whole movie talked about how Bush had business ties with the Bin Ladens, I believe it.
_________________________
Currently working on:
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-some jazz stuff

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#705281 - 11/13/08 04:45 PM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
ManyHandedMusician Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 71
Loc: North-central Minnesota
But yes, I believed the movie very much, none of it would surprise me. I think the government is corrupted for the most part. It really sickens me.

I am on the same boat as luapparc
_________________________
Currently working on:
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#705282 - 11/29/08 02:16 PM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3158
Michael Moore does not make "documentaries"...he makes "Crockumentaries", as does Oliver Stone.
_________________________
Music teacher and piano player.

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#1166700 - 03/22/09 05:59 AM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 [Re: rocket88]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2038
Loc: Maine
'Interesting discussion ... sort of. Osama Bin Laden and Sheik Kalleid Mohammad debunked the "truther" conspiracy theories, but yet they go on and on ad nauseium.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
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#1183900 - 04/20/09 03:37 AM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 [Re: David Jenson]
agent8698 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 6
Loc: Tacoma, WA
I don't believe the WTC buildings were brought down by explosives. I say this because I read the following 12-page document, written by demolition experts:

"A Critical Analysis of the Collapse of WTC Towers 1, 2 and 7 from an Explosives and Conventional Demolition Industry Viewpoint"

http://www.implosionworld.com/Article-WTC%20STUDY%208-06%20w%20clarif%20as%20of%209-8-06%20.pdf

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#1244491 - 08/06/09 06:24 AM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 [Re: agent8698]
angelas Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/09
Posts: 114
Loc: New Zealand (South Pacific, Do...
I can't honestly believe that so many Americans would subscribe to the notion that their own government orcehstrated 9/11. Come on. Fundamentalist Islam is your problem...not the government. Every American I meet in NZ is an apologist for their "being American". I've never seen a nation of people so ashamed of their own existence. I'm glad one of my rellies (relatives) wasn't killed during 9/11. I'd be baying for blood. Micheal Moore is an idiot. He's a lefty, pseudo intellectual, idealistic twit. I wouldn't trust him off the end of my boot.

Evil pervails only when good men do nothing.


Edited by angelas (08/06/09 07:22 AM)
_________________________
Behind every successful woman is some twit who's lost the remote....

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#1310672 - 11/22/09 09:42 PM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 [Re: angelas]
PartyPianist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/05/09
Posts: 281
Interesting thread. My take (based on discussion with actual CIA members).

1 Michael Moore is as "politically correct" as everyone else on the "payroll"

2 Oklahoma WTC bombing was a fix. McVeigh was set up and though was "culpable", he did not bring the building down. The expert report stated that he would have done no more than "blown out a few windows. Experts claimed it was a professional demolition job and explosives were placed at the struts.

3 Who was behind the WTC bombing? It seems that though McVeigh was protesting "medical injuries" of gulf veterans (veterans who became sick or died as a result of "medications" for their service in Iraq), he had formed some associations with Islamic extremists. It is clear that Clinton was briefed.

4 Some of those behind Oklahoma were involved with 911.

5 It is likely that 911 was enabled by cooperation of Mossad, US government and its security service. But, with one important point - the attack was carried out by Islamic extremists.

6 Were Clinton and Bush aware? Dates - probably not. It was going to happen - without a shadow of a doubt.

7 What about Bin Laden? He is not wanted for the 911 attack, but "if" he was caught it sure would make the agenda. I don't have any evidence, but I believe he is already dead and possibly died before 911.

8 How did the wheels fall off? As with all crooks, the outcomes were miscalculated. There was no reason for any Islamic to use the date 9/11. It has absolute significance to anyone in the US and therefore was the idea of US backers. The marketing plan backfired when 300 fire-fighters were killed with the building collapse.

9 Iraq was all part of the plan in a attempt to violently stamp out "anti west" Islamic fundamentalism (post Iranian Ayatollah), but not the lid is off a disastrous situation, where something very nasty may well happen. This nasty thing will make 911 like a mild scratch. I pray it does not happen.

10 Rather than looking inward as a result of 911, American has sought solace in the blame game, ignoring the huge injustice that should be directly attributed to its own callous administrations.

11. There are many good people in America. God needs them to be given a forum to take things away from the current path. Obama predictably has done nothing to stop the progression.
_________________________
You play it & I'll hum it, but currently rehearsing:

Bach WTC book 2 no 15 G major, no 20 A minor, no 22 Bb Minor
Mozart A minor Sonata K310
Mendelssohn Op 35 preludes and fuges
Busoni Carmen Fantasy
Rachmaninov Bb prelude OP 23 no 2
Lyapunov Humoreske Op 34
and others

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#1334193 - 12/26/09 04:17 PM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 [Re: PartyPianist]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3786
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: PartyPianist
I don't have any evidence, but I believe he [Bin Laden] is already dead and possibly died before 911.
Yeah, that's the whole story of conspiracy theorists.

"I don't have any evidence, but ..."

It's always the same.

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#1372136 - 02/12/10 09:23 PM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 [Re: MacMacMac]
lisztonian Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/07
Posts: 266
I can think of *at least* 10 documentaries proving government involvement of 9/11. I can link them if you like. Some scientists that have spoken out are Dr Stephen Jones David Ray Griffin as well as the architects of the twin towers. Five of the commission's members also testified saying 9/11 was a fraud. I could go on and on. The media loves to smear "9/11 truthers" but the reality is, the facts and truth are on our side.
_________________________
http://www.infowars.com

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#1387289 - 03/03/10 01:26 PM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 [Re: lisztonian]
appleman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 188
Originally Posted By: lisztonian
I can think of *at least* 10 documentaries proving government involvement of 9/11.
Wow. Is any of them actual have any real facts?

I can think of one documentary that proves that Jesus was created by elites who really believed in astrology.

Another one that proves Jews run the entire world.

Are these also true?
_________________________
Dr. Appleman, former NASA engineer, Empire of Earth and B.S. of Ninjutsu at MIT.

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#1393390 - 03/11/10 02:29 AM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 [Re: appleman]
lisztonian Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/07
Posts: 266
Originally Posted By: appleman
Originally Posted By: lisztonian
I can think of *at least* 10 documentaries proving government involvement of 9/11.
Wow. Is any of them actual have any real facts

Yes.

-The senior counsel to the 9/11 Commission – John Farmer – says that the government agreed not to tell the truth about 9/11 (6 of the 9 commission members also spoke out) Also published a book about it.

-Jet fuel does not burn hot enough to melt though steel, let alone pulverize steel and bring all three towers down at near free-fall speed into their own footprint (building 7 wasn't even hit by a plane)

-Over 1000 architects and engineers signed a petition for a new investigation based upon physical evidence and analysis completely inconsistent with the official story

-Molten metal under both towers weeks after the collapses. This is not scientifically possible with only jet fuel. See Stephen E. Jones' work - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezIU6ZxYU3A

These are just a few. If you do your research you will realize that there is no possible way the governments account of 9/11 is factual.
_________________________
http://www.infowars.com

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#1396187 - 03/15/10 10:11 AM Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 [Re: lisztonian]
appleman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 188
Wow. Wow. Wow. So much fallacious thinking, so little time.
Quote:

-The senior counsel to the 9/11 Commission – John Farmer – says that the government agreed not to tell the truth about 9/11 (6 of the 9 commission members also spoke out) Also published a book about it.
Yeah. John Farmer published a book that basically told how the Bush administration tried to cover up it's inadequacies. Oh wow. Politicians trying to save their butts! It's a first for politics.

John Farmer called the 9/11 commission "accurate and true" in his book. While the advertisements claim otherwise, the book spends most of it's time defending the 9/11 commission.
Quote:
-Jet fuel does not burn hot enough to melt though steel, let alone pulverize steel and bring all three towers down at near free-fall speed into their own footprint (building 7 wasn't even hit by a plane)
Wow. I don't know where to begin.

Building 7's debris field was not well contained within the footprint. It fell asymmetrical and was leaning enough to damage the adjacent Verizon and Manhattan Community College buildings when it fell.

Molten metal?
Originally Posted By: "Retired New York deputy fire chief Vincent Dunn"
I have never seen melted steel in a building fire, but I've seen a lot of twisted, warped, bent and sagging steel. What happens is that the steel tries to expand at both ends, but when it can no longer expand, it sags and the surrounding concrete cracks."


This was very well demonstrated with the tanker crash on April 29, 2007 in Oakland, California. The 8,600 gallons of gasoline on fire weakened a bridge and the entire I-Beam steel structure collapsed in a matter of minutes. And it not only collapsed, the weakened I-Beams were crushed like clay.

Real world proof that not only is it not required for metal to be molten for a structure to collapse, but also that the weakened metal can be deformed very easily.
Quote:
-Over 1000 architects and engineers signed a petition for a new investigation based upon physical evidence and analysis completely inconsistent with the official story
Over 1000 piano teachers think that Bach invented ET tuning that we used today.

I think the group sums itself up with this one.

Originally Posted By: " Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth"
"the 3 high-rise buildings of the World Trade Center which 'collapsed' on 9/11 (the Twin Towers plus WTC Building #7) presented us with a body of evidence (i.e.controlled demolition) that was clearly outside the scope of our training and experience."

Quote:

-Molten metal under both towers weeks after the collapses. This is not scientifically possible with only jet fuel. See Stephen E. Jones' work - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezIU6ZxYU3A

Let's see.

Professor Jones finds trace chemicals that have already been discovered by other WTC dust surveys. Unlike the other, sane people, instead of concluding that these things are expected in a collapse of a skyscraper at levels expected for such a collapse, he instead believes these are the result of thermite.

Right.

I gotcha.

Steven Jones is a prof of physics, not of chemistry. Most of his expertise is on the atomic level, not the level you'd need for a WTC collapse.

Another expert speaking outside his expertises making wild claims. I guess that sums up the entire movement in one sentence.
Quote:
These are just a few. If you do your research you will realize that there is no possible way the governments account of 9/11 is factual.
The only thing I see is that conspiracy theorists turn a blind eye to anything that doesn't fit nicely into their conspiracy, so relying on them will only make a person disinformed.
_________________________
Dr. Appleman, former NASA engineer, Empire of Earth and B.S. of Ninjutsu at MIT.

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