I'm with theJourney on this. I want the total experience to be right BEFORE considering adding outboard expansion. In this day and age, one should be able to buy something that sounds like a real acoustic piano/electric piano and acts like one, too. The action needs to connect one to the sound in a holistic way, and the sound should be good enough to feed your creativity and encourage you to play better. That's why I'm worried that the new MP6 may only get me half way there, whereas the FP-7f/NX will possibly get me 90% of the way. I hope I'm wrong and that the playing field will be more even.

What are you basing that preconception on though? I've read a quite a few opinions where people chose the MP5 over Roland's RD series as they felt they were more a 'piano' experience than the Roland RD's.

I personally haven't decided yet as I haven't tried a Kawai yet, but I have tried the Rolands on a number of occasions. I'm really hoping the MP5 and hopefully the MP6 are good competition with the newest RD's in the sound and playability department. That's why i'm interested..

Isn't interresting though, how none of these products brings something new to the game. Kawai has the RM3 Grand, UPHI. Roland has the SN sounds, PHA III action out already. This is just repackaging really.

Well, actually it is bringing these actions and sounds to parts of their line-up that didn't yet have them and making other incremental improvements or changes such as to user interface. In the case of Roland, the move has been quite rational: bring out superior technology in the top of the line brand new unit, then apply it to the high volume/high margin cabinet pianos, then add it to the low volume furniture like pianos and finally put it in the high volume slabs.

It will be very interesting to see what Yamaha decides to do / is able to do in the next 18 months. They seem to be behind in both actions and sound engine. Roland seems to be aggressively putting their best action and sound in as much of the lineup as possible while Kawai continues to segment, although not as much as Yamaha.

Yamaha is the 600 pound gorilla of the piano industry.
When you kick a Gorilla ... expect to get kicked back .... HARD.
Yamaha will be bringing some interesting stuff to the table over the next 12 months.

It's less of a preconception and more of a concern. Kawai has decided to segment the "pro" market, reserving the best sound for the (in my case) impossibly heavy MP10. Given all that has been said about the difference between PHI and UPHI, the latter is more detailed and expressive due, at least in part, to greater memory (and probably more layers). With the Roland, I get their best sound engine plus their best action in a (just about) totable package for a few hundred more.

Frankly, I doubt whether the older MP5 can compete with the new Rolands. Going purely on the youtube videos available, the new SN sound engine sounds much better than the older one. I have to say that I didn't much care for the RD700GX pianos, and actually preferred what was in my 300SX. Also, all stage Rolands have had 88 key sampling for a while, whereas the MP5 was a stretched sample-set. However, the MP5 had a nicer action than the 300-series' almost semi-weighted feel.

It's difficult to tell from the one MP6 video I've seen how good it's actually going to be. The sounds are nice, but I thought I detected a slightly clipped quality to the samples, although I can't be sure - particularly on a compressed youtube video. Dewster's analysis of PHI suggests quite short initial samples before going into looping. How that actually translates into the playing experience, I have no idea yet.

As I said previously, I hope the differences between the two technologies (SN and PHI) will be less pronounced than the specifications suggest. I want the MP6 to be a winner - if Kawai had not chosen to throttle it back, it probably would have been...

When you say 'Throttle is back', what are you basing that comment on, out of interest? The differences between that and the MP5 haven't sunk in yet. Especially the differences between the RD's and the MP6..

By "throttle it back", I mean deciding to use PHI not UPHI.

Seems there are new audio demos for the MP6 on Kawai Europes page, not just piano demos as on the US page:

http://kawai.de/mp6_en.htm

Thx. Very informative.. I'm a sucker for all the details so your opinion is helping a load..

The thing is. My friends 700Sx sounds and feels pretty great to me. If the Mp5, or ideally the Mp6, sounded as good as that and had a similar or better keyboard then i'd probably be pretty chuffed as an owner. I'm in this to learn how to play the piano so I come from the point of view of having no experience as a piano player (fumbling on the keyboard yes...).

That is a tough statement to believe. There is no way the MP5 beats the RD700GX on any metric that I can think of. However, it is fair to say it does compete more directly with the RD300GX.

I have seen several opinions that did not like RD300 action so I could see people choosing the Kawai MP5 on those grounds. Even so, personally I think the MP5 action is heavier but not necessarily better response wise.

Also, the sound is not even comparable IMO. Overall, I have a really tough time agreeing that the MP5 is a better overall piano than any of the RD's and would be surprised if" many" others thought so, but I could be wrong.

I think you are wrong.

Could someone please explain to me the difference between "zones" in mp6 and "sections" in mp10?
I certainly know what zones are, and at first I understood "sections" to be different sections of sound banks - piano, etc... but then when Kawai info mentions zones in MP6, they mention sections in MP10. And so I'm beginning to be afraid that MP10 will have no zones... Which.. to me is unthinkable... So I'm really hoping that someone here will say "Oh no, sections are just zones with more control, etc"... or some such thing.

thanks!.

MP5/MP6 competes with the RD-300.
MP8/MP10 competes with the RD-700.

Cheers,
James
x

MP10 interface is so streamlined and easy to understand that it almost it self-explained. For what I've understood MP10 sections are just like zones, but with, in fact, less control.

Each one of the zones (Piano, Elecrtic Piano, Sub and MIDI) can be layered on top, or next to the other ones, so you have in fact 4 zones, and I guess that you should be able to map them on the keyboard at your wish (the same as zones on MP6). BUT, each zone has its own sounds. For instance you cannot select a piano sound for the Sub zone.

Maybe it seems a limitation. Indeed it is. But you only have 27 sounds in the MP10 (9 for each section, and the 4th zone, MIDI, is for external instrument so it does not have any sound on its own) compared to 256 on MP6 and former MP8. Less sounds but of higher quality. So the sections have sense as they are, if I understood them right. I guess that in MP10 ease of use has been prioritized over control.

Kudos for the interface designer. From the ease of use point of view, MP10 interface is scratching perfection.

And I suspect that each one of the sections can be used as a MIDI section if you wish. So as a MIDI controller it would keep all the possibilities that you have with MP6 (for instance controlling up to 4 external MIDI instruments).

whew...that's not too bad then... so I would be able to split the keyboard and send midi to my pc for contrabass, and have a section on mp10 for piano... I feel better now.. thanks for your reply.

kurtie, rennspec,



I'm afraid this is not correct.

Only the MIDI section can be used to control external instruments - the PIANO, E.PIANO, and SUB sections are used to control the internal generator and do not send MIDI CC# information.

Kind regards,
James
x

James, thanks. So I suppose it would still be possible to activate midi section that covers a part or the entire keyboard, and split the keys at the host to play as many virtual instruments as one would like?

Regarding "controlling" 4 external midi instruments - so I understand MP10 won't control all 4 at the same time, but is there any way to switch between virtual instruments quickly?

thank you.

Interesting comment, given that it has not been too long since the release of the CP-1-5-50 line.

It is possible for one of the big three --Yamaha, Kawai, Roland --to shatter the current concept of the stage pianos (incremental increases of piddly sample memory every few years). Often, leaders get to the gorilla status by being the first to take a leap.

From your own knowledge based on the the history of the, well, competition as it were. Do you feel the MP5 competed with the RD-300GX or the SX? I didn't like the SX very much. It was good, but the main piano sounds just didn't give the same sense of realism that the 700SX's main piano did at all.

If the MP6 is still to be released, do you feel it will compete with the 300GX or the inevitable 300NX? I'm starting to think that the 300NX will have the SN piano which will make it very hard for the more knowledgable buyer to see the MP6 as the better choice when it comes to piano sounds. That said, I don't know how the MP6 is going to sound compared to the MP5 or the 300GX (which I see as being a small 700GX with the 700SX piano sounds).

Not that i've played either (or can actually play the piano at all for that matter.. )

When I see all the reactions on the MP6 in all different threads I cannot jump to another conclusion than that (almost) everybody is disappointed by the lack of high quality (UHPI or better) piano sounds. And that , in comparison , the Roland line-up better meets that need for a good basic acoustic. So when people are still in limbo about wether to buy the MP6 or not, it's the other details (keybed, master-controller functions) that will influence the decision the most. So basic question is...is the MP6 as a whole worth it's money ? Or are there better options available from competitors in the same price range. I think it's a tough one. Kawai could have made this a simple yes, by not "throttling back" on the basic sound as Voxpop said so well. MP6EX anyone ? Perhaps at NAMM ?

Still undecided, really trying to like the Kawai, but more and more leaning toward SN machine, taking all things in consideration...- it could have been so wonderful ;-)

With refererence to RM3 picture (found in that PDF), I can't understand where is the key pivot point. It should be at the base of the key, but it's not so clear, while it is in its side RH picture.

Let me put it this way.

The MP10 looks like a fabulous instrument, but since I need to be able to perform with it, it's a non-starter.

The MP6 has some nice features: new action, good midi capabilities, new EPs etc; and it's lighter than an RD or FP.

BUT: due to the paucity of in-store Kawai stage models, it will require a leap of faith to purchase one. I would have been prepared to take that leap if Kawai had said (like Roland) "here, we've put the best software technology that we have into our MP6." Then I would have known that I was getting the best that that company can produce at this time, compromising only on the plastic action, XLRs and other peripherals. Even if the resulting sound had been slightly less authentic than Roland's SN, I would still be playing an instrument worthy of admiration, and one with a reasonable "shelf-life". The fact that I now have to take that leap of faith knowing that this is not Kawai's best and that it probably falls well short of SN, means that long-term satisfaction may be off the table. Do the other features make up for it? For those who will use it for VST instruments, maybe; but I am not going to be hooking up my laptop for performances, with all the attendant problems that introduces. That is why the internal sounds matter a lot to me. However, like most stage keyboardists, I don't need 250+ internal sounds. I need excellent pianos, EPs, organs, and maybe strings/pads (very occasionally). Anything "exotic" can be catered for by a second dedicated board or expander, which will probably do it better anyway.

Let's face it, $1,500 is not Casio territory: why not let Casio cater to the entry market with the do-it-all approach? Kawai should be saying: "this is our lighter-weight stage instrument, featuring the same world-class sounds as the MP10. No compromise on expressiveness or sonic reproduction: this instrument will do full justice to your playing, whether it's classical at the conservatory or rock at the arena." Instead, it's more like, "break your back or ride second-class."

My playing improves with a better instrument. Just because I gig doesn't mean I don't play with subtlety of expression. This time around I want something that I can grow into. I was ready to take a leap of faith, but I need the manufacturer to give me the right tools.

Rimmer, I honestly cannot recall playing an RD-300 - indeed, I don't believe this model is available in Japan.

However, I gather that the RD-300 utilises the PHA 'alpha' keyboard action, which I expect is inferior (i.e. less realistic) to the AHA IV-e action in the MP5.

Cheers,
James
x

I think your jumping the gun a bit. Hardly anyone has really had a chance with the MP6's sound. And I would bet its AP sounds are highly competitive with its direct rivals the RD300GX and CP50 plus its a few hundred cheaper then either.
I played the MP10 and considered it to be a real competitor against the RD700NX and CP5. The real problem is that not many people can play a MP6/MP10 because of Kawai's limited distribution where as everyone can see a Roland or Yamaha because they are in every major store.
Will it compete with a future RD300 with SN or a revised CP50 ? Maybe, maybe not, you can only compare whats available now.

Indeed it is for a stage piano for live performance about as good as it possibly could get. Within 30 seconds I was maneuvering about the boards settings. Its that simple and that easy.

Qbert,

The 'RM3 Grand' action keys pivot on a central balance pin (different placements for black and white keys), just like a grand piano.

The pivot point for the 'RH' action is at the back of the key, just like most other digital piano keyboard actions.

Please refer to the higher resolution action images linked in this thread for a closer look.

Cheers,
James
x

I think Kawai has created some confusion by marketing the MP6 and MP10 as related instruments (by their designation and a common marketing brochure, for example). They are really two entirely different kinds of instruments, taking different approaches.

The MP6 is a multi-function piano-oriented performance keyboard and MIDI controller. Although the specific feature sets are different, I would say that functional competitors would be Casio PX-3, Kurzweil SP4-7 (and future SP4-8), Nord Stage EX, Yamaha S70XS and S90XS, Roland RD-300 and RD-700 series.

The MP10 is a high end Digital Piano, with limited additional use... fewer additional sounds, more limited MIDI controller functionality, focus on high end piano sound and feel. Despite their wide range of differences, other models I would put in this general category would be Nord Piano, Korg SV-1, Roland V-Piano, and Yamaha CP-1, CP-5, CP-50 (even though these last two do have hundreds of other sounds).

I know, James said "MP5/MP6 competes with the RD-300. MP8/MP10 competes with the RD-700." And in some respects, I can see that (i.e. looked at from the perspective of action and price). But when you look at the feature sets as a whole, and the priorities of their prospective purchasers, I think that, conceptually, the split I described makes more sense.

On paper, i'm feeling exactly like you are. The FP7F is starting to interest me more than the MP6 although I really want to like the MP6 more than the FP7 for some reason.

I think the proof is in the pudding. Getting them both side by side could be an issue (although I think I might have the option in Bristol in the Uk if I time it right). Only then can we really decide.

Some of the differences between UHPI, SN etc... etc... etc... remind me of some of the conversations I have had with people over different ribbon/condensor/dynamic microphones and/or recording equipment. The reality can be soo much different when the equipment is in the hands of the owner. The differences discussed are obviously valid but i'm not convinced that once we get these things home that they would be enough to make you feel like you've made a bad decision. I don't know... I'm just starting to feel that we are discussing relatively minor details in the grand scheme of things.

Which means that there is a missing instrument in Kawai's line-up: a portable (as opposed to transportable) top quality stage piano. Something that will compete directly with the RD-700NX and the CP5. Damn, it! If I have to, I'll design it myself. I would really like to buy a Kawai (maybe because they're not Roland - definitely because they're not Yamaha - but principally because they make a beautiful acoustic!).