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#153944 - 06/22/05 07:46 AM Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Mozart Spirit Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/21/05
Posts: 17
Hi,
I like the tone of Estonia. But I'm not sure how reliable it is in terms of maintenance. (And Larry Fine gives lower ratings in their quality control.) I know Yamaha is pretty reliable, and Kawai is probably ok. I know there are quite a few Estonia owners here in the forum. Please help me out with Estonia.
I like Estonia 168, but don't know if I should get 190 instead. Is there a big difference between these two models?
Can someone tell me what price would be a good deal for these two estonia models? How are they priced compared to Yamaha C3 and Kawai RX-3?
Thanks.

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#153945 - 06/22/05 08:06 AM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Christopher P. Smith Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 1306
Loc: Timonium, MD
In the past few years, Estonia has become a VERY fine piano for the $ amount. I do believe their longevity can be counted on, as can Yamaha and Kawai's. If the tone of the Estonia pleases you more than the others, than go for it!
_________________________
Representing Yamaha, Story and Clark, and other fine instruments
Menchey Music Service
Associate Member of PTG
Serving Central Pennsylvania and the Greater Baltimore Area

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#153946 - 06/22/05 08:50 AM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Paul Y Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1083
Loc: Nashua, NH
Mozart Spirit,

Christopher is correct! You should go for it. Although you have probably read that Larry Fine wasn't giving rave reviews in his last full publication, his newest "suppliment" moves it up a number of notches! In fact, up to "four and a half stars"!

It has truly become a performance piano, since the owner (a Jiliard graduate and concert pianist) made a number of changes.

Regarding your question about the Yamaha or Kawai, they are very fine instruments! However, neither of them are considered to be "hand-built" pianos. Additionally, pianos from Europe are traditionally regarded as "more desirable" and a completely different sound and touch from that of Asian-rim pianos.

But the bottom line is YOUR opinion! Like Chris Smith said, if it pleases you, go for it! After all, no one here on Piano World can tell you what sound you like best. It's a personal opinion.

Regarding pricing, if you would like to e-mail me, I would be glad to give you some ballpark information.

Paul
_________________________
Retired Industry Professional

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#153947 - 06/22/05 10:32 AM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
jcp190 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/15/04
Posts: 11
I bought an Estonia 190 after trying lots of pianos in the ~$20K range (and some above). I tried the Petroff III, Bohemia, Yamaha C3, Kawai RX-3, Boston, rebuilt Steinway. Above my price point, I tried an August Forster and Mason and Hamlin, which I liked very much.

I liked the tone of the Petrof and Estonia the best -- their tones were similar. I thought the Estonia had a better "fit and finish" than the Petrof, but that was my general impression, and I couldn't really put my finger on why I like the Estonia better -- I just did. I liked the Kawai more than the Yamaha. I was above to compare the Yamaha and Petrof side by side, and I thought the feel (Yamaha's keys were too light and were harder to control IMO), tone and materials in the Petrof were nicer.

The Boston did not impress me at all. The Bohemia sounded nice but I thought the fit and finish wasn't there.

Regarding Estonia's quality, I think Larry Fine's supplement upgraded Estonia's confidence and quality quality control to 4.5 of 5 stars, which would make it at the top of the so-called "tier 2" pianos.

IMO, if you like the Estonia the best, you shouldn't let quality concerns scare you away. I think you would do well with any of Yamaha, Kawai and Estonia.

Good luck.

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#153948 - 06/22/05 10:49 AM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
ChatNoir Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 1469
Loc: Encino, California
My Estonia 168 is now 6 years old, and so far, no problems. It holds the tuning well and has developed no squeaks or rattles. And I'm sure the quality is quite a bit better now than in 1999.
_________________________
Some men are music lovers. Others make love without it.

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#153949 - 06/22/05 11:03 AM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13964
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Mozart:

The quality of any of the pianos you mentioned is not the issue on which you should base your decision: they're all excellent!

In fact very few pianos - even in the lower range - today remain on the market which are *good* or at least of "very agreeable" quality.

In case of the pianos you mentioned it really comes down to your own *preference* - boy, am I ever an innovative writer \:D - and really nothing else should matter.

One small point: I often noticed that people who prefer the Kawai over Yamaha also seem to lean more towards an Estonia or Petrof.

Just as a point of observation - everybody do his/her own interpretation.

norbert \:\)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#153950 - 06/22/05 11:09 AM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Mozart Spirit Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/21/05
Posts: 17
Thanks for all of the helpful info.
How strange. I'm quite confused as to which to pick at this moment after having tried so many different brands. And I don't know if Larry Fine's book changed my perceptions about pianos. I had been biased toward Yamaha and used to its bright tone. A month ago, I tried a Petrof grand at a friend's house and didn't like it. But the other day I tried one in a piano store and felt it was good. I started looking for a Yamaha C2, but got attracted to C3, then Steinway. Then I tried some other top, top brands. And I tried Estonia 168 and 190. Then I started shifting my bias \:\)

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#153951 - 06/22/05 11:16 AM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
FogVilleLad Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 4680
Loc: San Francisco
Mozart,

Your preferences are changing as you aquire more experience with auditioning pianos. Just continue to audition them, until one of them sings to you as you play the music that you want to play.

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#153952 - 06/22/05 11:31 AM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13964
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Mozart:

The process you're going through is completely normal.

When I started looking for a wife, I looked for "German"...but soon realized my grave mistake... \:D

We all learn as we go through the motions of life.

Actually it's a great testimony to a piano maker, when he becomes the final choice against some intial leaders of the pack.

I'm saying the same thing to my Philippina wife!

Everyday... ;\) ;\)

norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#153953 - 06/22/05 11:42 AM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Christopher P. Smith Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 1306
Loc: Timonium, MD
What type of music do you play?

Did any of the pianos really jump out at you. Did you ever say, in the back of your mind, "This is the one"?

There are so many choices out there, but it seems to me you have narrowed it down to several great pianos.

Go with the one that calls to you!!!!
_________________________
Representing Yamaha, Story and Clark, and other fine instruments
Menchey Music Service
Associate Member of PTG
Serving Central Pennsylvania and the Greater Baltimore Area

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#153954 - 06/22/05 11:51 AM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Mozart Spirit Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/21/05
Posts: 17
Yes, it's actually quite fun and exciting to try out different brands especially those tier 1 pianos. But when it comes down to pricing, I have to be more realistic. Is it possible to get an estonia 190 at $20K range?
Hi Jcp190[/b], would you mind sharing with me how much you paid for your 190?
Thanks again.

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#153955 - 06/22/05 11:53 AM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Christopher P. Smith Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 1306
Loc: Timonium, MD
So, will it be the Estonia. . .if you can afford it?
_________________________
Representing Yamaha, Story and Clark, and other fine instruments
Menchey Music Service
Associate Member of PTG
Serving Central Pennsylvania and the Greater Baltimore Area

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#153956 - 06/22/05 12:05 PM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Mozart Spirit Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/21/05
Posts: 17
Hi Christopher,
I play classical music. But I'm simply a hobby and beginner player. I'm seriously considering an estonia ever since I tried it. But I'll go back and try a couple of times to confirm my current preference. And yes, if I can afford it, I'll most likely get it. But I wonder if I should get 168 or 190. Although I'm a beginner, I'm quite serious and enthusiastic about playing piano. So I don't know if I'll be happy with 168 when I get more and more advanced.

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#153957 - 06/22/05 12:14 PM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Christopher P. Smith Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 1306
Loc: Timonium, MD
It looks like the the 190's retail somewhere around the $35-38K range.

The 168's retail around $27-32K.

What is it about the 190 that you like?
_________________________
Representing Yamaha, Story and Clark, and other fine instruments
Menchey Music Service
Associate Member of PTG
Serving Central Pennsylvania and the Greater Baltimore Area

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#153958 - 06/22/05 12:19 PM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Mozart Spirit Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/21/05
Posts: 17
I personally think 168 is very good for me. But since the grand piano size matters and I'm not professional enough to judge the bigger bass matter, I need advice and help on the choosing between 168 and 190.

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#153959 - 06/22/05 12:22 PM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13964
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Actually not quite that high - they can be gotton for quite a bit less.

[Still... ;\) ]

It also would be interesting [or good advice ... ;\) ] to go back to a Yamaha or Kawai dealer and try his pianos at least one more time.

When it comes down to *showdown* - he may well pull out his finest stops - and you yourself still get a *final* confirmation if you indeed have taken the right direction moving towards an Estonia since you your search initially started out.

You never know.

But then - you will!

norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#153960 - 06/22/05 12:50 PM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Christopher P. Smith Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 1306
Loc: Timonium, MD
 Quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:
Actually not quite that high - they can be gotton for quite a bit less.

[Still... ;\) ]

[/b]


OOps, I gather that Ancott has the "average" retail prices a little high on the Estonia's. Sorry 'bout that Norbert!
_________________________
Representing Yamaha, Story and Clark, and other fine instruments
Menchey Music Service
Associate Member of PTG
Serving Central Pennsylvania and the Greater Baltimore Area

Top
#153961 - 06/22/05 12:57 PM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13964
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Not at all, Chris!

Got none to sell.... whatever[/b] price... \:D

norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#153962 - 06/22/05 01:06 PM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Mozart Spirit Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/21/05
Posts: 17
Hi Norbert,
Thanks for your advice. Yes, I'll also try Yamaha C3 a few times before I decide.

Hi ChatNoir,
Thanks for assuring me that your estonia 168 is still in good shape.

Hi Christopher,
I felt estonia 168 spoke to me. But I need more confirmation.

Hi FogVilleLad,
I'll continue my search. And who knows, I might shift my focus again \:\)

Hi All,
I still need advice on 168 versus 190. Thanks.

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#153963 - 06/22/05 01:11 PM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Christopher P. Smith Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 1306
Loc: Timonium, MD
 Quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:
Not at all, Chris!

Got none to sell.... whatever[/b] price... \:D

norbert [/b]
Are you completely sold out of Estonia?
_________________________
Representing Yamaha, Story and Clark, and other fine instruments
Menchey Music Service
Associate Member of PTG
Serving Central Pennsylvania and the Greater Baltimore Area

Top
#153964 - 06/22/05 01:16 PM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13964
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
I am. \:o

We're simply taking deposits at this point.

Reduced to the function of a bank teller.....

norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#153965 - 06/22/05 01:17 PM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Sir Lurksalot Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 1235
MS,

I think 20K is now closer to the price of an ebony 168 than a 190.

My 168 is a year old and I love it more each day. Based on prices back then, I chose it over C2 and RX-2, not C3 and RX-3

Check out Estoniaworld.com if you have not already.

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#153966 - 06/22/05 01:31 PM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Mozart Spirit Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/21/05
Posts: 17
Hi Sir Lurksalot,

Are you saying estonia 168 was comparable to C2 and RX-2 in price range a year ago?

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#153967 - 06/22/05 01:46 PM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
FogVilleLad Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 4680
Loc: San Francisco
Mozart,

The bass tends to improve (become richer, more powerful) more with size than does the treble. Maybe next time you're in a shop, try A/Bing the 168 and 190 with this in mind---and of course with your prefered repertoire always in mind.

In general, if a 190 is doable, that's where I'd be heading.

This may sound a little strange, but I'd also recommend not making the decision immediately after A/Bing. Just go home and wait. If you have a strong preference, it will at some point jump into consciousness. And that jump will hopefully be based on your having played the pieces that you want to play. By way of making this suggestion sound less strange, what's happening is that your subconscious is at work, free from any extraneous influences. Be patient.

And don't be embarassed about hiring a conservatory student to play your preferred repertoire. They're skilled and will work cheap;-)

DavidH

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#153968 - 06/22/05 01:47 PM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
jcp190 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/15/04
Posts: 11
MOZART SPIRIT:

I bought my 190 a little over 6 months ago. I have no complaints so far. I'll leave it to you to negotiate the price with your dealer since since they have to make a living too. Having said that, Larry Fine's price supplement said take up to 25% off of the $29,300 "street price". I think should give you some idea of a fair (not great, not bad) deal.

I expect that the dealers will tell you that there's been X price increases since then (not sure if they can rely on the Euro-dollar exchange rate anymore), but I remain sceptical.

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#153969 - 06/22/05 02:44 PM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
iyi bir piano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 664
Loc: USA
Mozart S.
I have a totally different opinion in regard to Estonia pianos.
If I were you I'll try to spend more time playing the Estonia, Kawai and Yamaha.

I find Japanese pianos more suitable for all types of Music or Styles.
IMO Estonia's tone is not well balanced. From the mid-range up, the tone is very slim with too much sustain.

I believe the tone and action in the Japanese piano is more consistent. The tonal quality of the Japanese piano in combination with their action gives you much better control.

The reason why Yamaha, Kawai and Steinway are often seen on the professional stage, is not a coincidence. These pianos are great for performance, as a whole they are better instruments than most.
In fact IMO Kawai's action nowadays is better than Renner.

Honestly, I don't think Estonias will ever make it to the professional stage


I find most second class European pianos very similar in tone to previous Korean pianos.
Obviously ! the Korean pianos were not as refine as the European.
This is the typical result of the imitation of the German tone.

Mozart spirit, if you care for the European tone get the real thing and buy a piano made in Germany.
If a German piano is too expensive, Japanese pianos are great and also have excellent resale value.

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#153970 - 06/22/05 02:52 PM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Mozart Spirit Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/21/05
Posts: 17
Hi iyi bir piano,
Thanks for sharing. Although I'm leaning more toward Estonia at this point, I haven't eliminated Yamaha C3 or Kawai RX-3 yet. Will keep checking them out.

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#153971 - 06/22/05 04:09 PM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6150
Just to get the terminology straight:

1. "List Prices" and "Retail" and "MSRP" are what got put on a piece of paper or in a book and got shown to the consumers. These numbers are often ridiculously high and bear little linear correlation to the actual prices that people pay to buy pianos. The numbers Christopher P. Smith and jcp190 quoted are in this category (even though jcp190 said "street price," which I believe is an error). Larry Fine's "25% off" guideline mentioned by jcp190 is a good starting point, but it's just a starting point -- some have gone lower, some have gone higher.

2. "Street Prices" refer to the REAL purchase price that a people actually paid, and is usually quoted with qualification on whether taxes and delivery charges are included. This information is hard to come by, even on a Forum like this. (A phenomenon that I personally think is rather unfortunate.) This is why after 27 posts you still do not get any reply that gives you a concrete number that is an actual purchase price.

Mozart Spirit,

I would encourage you to search the archive of this forum to see what data points you can unearth. Just click on the "search" keyword near the top of this page, right under the "Post a Poll" button.

There is also this very involved discussion on piano pricing in the FAQ section of this Forum at this location: http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/16/38.html

Good luck.
_________________________
www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

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#153972 - 06/22/05 04:26 PM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13964
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
iyi:

After having being the chosen builder of over 8000 concert grands for the concert stages of the Soviet Union before, Estonia has actually had *more* of a professional stage presence than any other piano maker in the world, including Steinway.

Your description of what the tone of an ancient builder such as Estonia,which today still takes great pains to build a piano as thorough and detailed as once used to be the case with all other premium piano builders, is all about and represents - especially in comparison to certain mass produced piano makers of today - is nothing short of remarkable.

It puts to shame and ridicule those who have recently made a choice for this brand, this after an often very careful, longish and very well documented selection process.

This is not to say that any one shopper is to choose Estonia as their final candidate in each and every case.

But it's interesting to see that in those parts of the world where Estonia grands are actually available, they are now hard to be kept on the floor.

And it's not exactly the *do-re-mi* type pianists....

... who seem to be eagerly lining up to get this particular brand and instrument for themselves at this time!

norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#153973 - 06/22/05 04:32 PM Re: Need help choosing between Estonia 168, 190, Yamaha C3, or Kawai RX-3
Sir Lurksalot Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 1235
MS

Yes that's what I'm saying. My dealer sells Yamaha, Kawai, and Estonia. When I bought my 168 a year ago, it was virtually the same price as C2 and RX-2. Today it's priced between C2 and C3.

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