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#1539391 - 10/20/10 12:06 PM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: mucci]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: mucci
Originally Posted By: hpeterh
Closely looking to the images of the RM3, it appears to me, that they have made the white keys even a little bit shorter and therefore they had to shift the pivot for the black keys, because these would be too short after this modification...


It's the other way round: The black keys are a little bit shorter and therefore they had to shift the pivot for the black keys (exactly like in a real acoustic piano). See my previous keyboard action comparison.


This is my action (AWA Grand Pro)


This is the RM3 action:

It seems to me that the distance Front<->Pivot is a little bit larger for the white keys of the AWA Grand Pro.
For the black keys it is of course much smaller.

They wanted to make a smaller cheaper keyboard, in order to build smaller and cheaper pianos. So they made the white keys shorter and the black keys got a shifted pivot.

Now, what does this all mean? IMO it does not mean that the Kawai action is better, because they have the largest Pivot-Keyfront distance. It is much more complicated:
For the white key they have probably the smallest distance, compared to Yamaha and Roland. For the black keys, they have possibly the largest distance.
Unique for the kawai keys is that they have much more mass and therefore capture the hammer-bounce back better and therefore play more smooth and quietly. Mass intertia goes up with keylength. (Of course only if the key has considerable mass)

Of course thats much too complicated for advertising. Therefore they advertise the longest keys, Thats simply wrong and marketing speech. For the white keys they have definitely the shortest keys ;-)

Look to their image of the RM3.

A layman will have a hard time to see wether the left or the right pivot belongs to the white key. It is so unclear.
;-)

Peter


Edited by hpeterh (10/20/10 04:04 PM)
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#1539472 - 10/20/10 02:20 PM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: voxpops]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4263
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: voxpops
I was listening to the MP6 audio demos a couple of days ago (German site I think) and noticed a rather static/flat decay to the final sustained bass note.

It seems Kawai UPH and Yamaha SCM are both doing essentially the same thing: a longer attack sample coupled to a very short, highly processed loop sample. I welcome the longer attack, but I can't help but feel the the short loop is - regardless of how well it is done - a technological step backwards.

I'll say it again: I can buy an 8 GB Flash drive for $13 USD retail. Can't I at least have 1 GB of samples please? Why this strict adherence to 64 MB (1/16 GB, ~10 cents USD retail) or whatever in most DPs? What gives? When it comes to sampling, size does matter.
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#1539491 - 10/20/10 02:37 PM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: dewster]
Bluestone Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 2
Dewster:

I'll say it again: I can buy an 8 GB Flash drive for $13 USD retail. Can't I at least have 1 GB of samples please? Why this strict adherence to 64 MB (1/16 GB, ~10 cents USD retail) or whatever in most DPs? What gives? When it comes to sampling, size does matter.

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#1539498 - 10/20/10 02:48 PM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: dewster]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3074
Originally Posted By: dewster
I'll say it again: I can buy an 8 GB Flash drive for $13 USD retail. Can't I at least have 1 GB of samples please? Why this strict adherence to 64 MB (1/16 GB, ~10 cents USD retail) or whatever in most DPs? What gives? When it comes to sampling, size does matter.


I think the 8 GB drive you're talking about is an SD card or thumb drive, yes? Those are really slow. I don't think they would be useful in a DP, except for storage of different sounds, if you were willing to live with substantial load time for loading different sounds into real RAM when switching sounds.

SD card is slower than hard drive, but has the benefit of small size, no moving parts, no real power requirement. SSD is faster than hard drive, much more expensive... but still not as fast as real memory.

I believe that DPs store their sound in custom ROMs. These are not off-the-shelf parts, so would not be produced in the kinds of price-lowering quantity as off-the-shelf parts.

Alternatively, in theory, getting back to the top of the message, I suppose DPs could store their sounds on SD or SSD, and load them in at startup. That should minimize the need for custom ROM, but would still require a good bunch of RAM and would also involve additional "boot time" for the keyboard. But I admit I'm talking at the edge of my knowledgeability here.


Edited by anotherscott (10/20/10 03:02 PM)

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#1539505 - 10/20/10 02:59 PM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: anotherscott]
elecmuse3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 304
Loc: Cincinnati
Quote:
Alternatively, in theory, getting back to the top of the message, I suppose DPs could store their sounds on SD or SSD, and load them in at startup. That should minimize the need for custom ROM, but would still require a good bunch of RAM and would also involve additional "boot time" for the keyboard. But I admit I'm talking at the edge of my knowledgeability here.


Edge of mine too, but seems worth the extra $80 or $100 retail to use an 8g flash Ram and 8 gig of fast regular RAM, and an extra 10 seconds of startup time to get an immense sample set. Kawai James?
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#1539510 - 10/20/10 03:05 PM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: mucci]
Hideki Matsui Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 785
My past DPs were a Roland Fantom G8 and 700SX. I was never quite happy with the action or piano sounds on my Rolands and ended up selling them and buying the Yamaha CP1, which is fantastic. Recently, I auditioned a Shigeru Kawai SK3 and absoultely fell in love with the tone and perfect action. Everyone has their preferences, but for me, the SK3 was piano perfection.

In any case, I am selling my Steinway to get the Shigeru Kawai SK3 and am considering selling my CP1 and picking up the MP10. As amazing as the CP1 is, I'm hoping for a slightly heavier action with the graded action on MP10. Too much practicing on the CP1 is leaving my fingers a little too light. If the pricing on the MP10 is low enough maybe I can keep both.


Edited by Hideki Matsui (10/20/10 04:24 PM)
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#1539565 - 10/20/10 04:32 PM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: anotherscott]
kurtie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/10
Posts: 195
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
[quote=dewster]I'll say it again: I can
I think the 8 GB drive you're talking about is an SD card or thumb drive, yes? Those are really slow. I don't think they would be useful in a DP, except for storage of different sounds, if you were willing to live with substantial load time for loading different sounds into real RAM when switching sounds.


Even a slow 30 MB/sec thumb would theoretically be able to feed up to 200 simultaneous voices at 48000 Khz / 24 bit. 200 voices seem to be enough.

RAM is several orders of magnitude faster than needed for a DP (in example, being able to dump the ENTIRE bank several times each second).

And if the latency of a thumb is a concern, then implement it as Kontakt: preload the first 60KB (or so) of each sample in RAM (1GB of RAM is not expensive and that is plenty of preload room... for lots of layers).

Maybe for a 80GB sample size a thumb drive would not be enough... but for 'only' 8GB? Numbers say it would work.

Regards!


Edited by kurtie (10/20/10 04:32 PM)

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#1539568 - 10/20/10 04:34 PM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: anotherscott]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4263
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
I think the 8 GB drive you're talking about is an SD card or thumb drive, yes? Those are really slow.

The interface (USB 2.0, SD) is slow, but the internal Flash is pretty fast, plenty fast to directly support sample playback without RAM buffering. I would guess that most DPs function this way nowadays.

The same flash is used in thumb and SSD drives, they just put more of it in parallel to increase SSD I/O speed. SSDs generally have a more complex wear-leveling controller as well, but wear-leveling isn't really necessary for DP sample playback, as only writes cause Flash wear.
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The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1539588 - 10/20/10 05:03 PM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: dewster]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
They will never do this.
This would mean they must compete with computer based pianos in cost and quality.

Within the next years these costs and the boot times will decrease. Faster and larger SSD's are expected. They will loose this battle within 10 or 20 years. So they have to concentrate to products that satisfies the today's and tommorow's needs of the average customer that typically doesnt want to fiddle around with computers and software.

I think they do not want to shoot all their powder, because they must have something to offer for next NAMM ;-)
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#1539595 - 10/20/10 05:19 PM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: hpeterh]
Hideki Matsui Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 785
I wonder how the MP10's amp simulations on the electric pianos will compare to the CP1? The EPs on the CP1 are incredible and the signal processing really set them apart from the CP5. Im pretty confident I will prefer the action on the Kawai. If they have a Shigeru EX in there, I know I will love the piano sounds. My only hesitation on pre-ordeing one is not knowing anything about their EPs and the amp modeling they are doing on the MP10.


Edited by Hideki Matsui (10/20/10 05:20 PM)
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Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#1539664 - 10/20/10 07:09 PM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Deffie]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4393
Loc: San Jose, CA
"...I wonder how the MP10's amp simulations on the electric pianos will compare..."

We all wonder, Hideki. I'm very interested to see, hear, and try the MP10--- and can't offer any opinion before I do.

For a company with no marketing to speak of, this is quite a buzz. I might be buzzing more myself, if I weren't breaking my brains on 1200 pages of Cubase manual and another 1000 of Sibelius. (And double-acrostics sets from Tascam, and Kawai, and E-Mu; 3-D Scrabble, and in Japanese. But, no whining--- I did it to myself).

Sure, I want the whole package--- sounds, MIDI controller, sequencer, processing, all onboard--- but the action is the part no one has really nailed yet. I just wonder if they've been brilliant enough to configure the new DPs to accept an aftermarket add-on ROM upgrade... just possibly, partnering with a company that specializes in those big sample sets.

I am a little curious why the MP10's weight would be such a deal-breaking hot button issue. I was able to handle the MP8ii on my own, with not much back left to put into it. There are lightweight two-wheeled hand trucks. Two minutes of help per gig, where there are stairs. One of those beer-cooler type cases--- decent protection with not much weight.

My tech used to be a piano mover (real pianos) before he got his training. He told me that guys who think it's all about muscle are the ones that get hurt. Leverage, balance, packing safely, handling the mass right, patience, and a fairly small amount of specialized gear.
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#1539666 - 10/20/10 07:10 PM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Hideki Matsui]
Rhodie73 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/11/08
Posts: 128
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
I wonder how the MP10's amp simulations on the electric pianos will compare to the CP1? The EPs on the CP1 are incredible and the signal processing really set them apart from the CP5. Im pretty confident I will prefer the action on the Kawai. If they have a Shigeru EX in there, I know I will love the piano sounds. My only hesitation on pre-ordeing one is not knowing anything about their EPs and the amp modeling they are doing on the MP10.



I'm in the same boat. However, I worry about the looping issues that might be noticeable in the Acoustic Piano sounds. I have a Roland RD700GXF and have been totally spoiled by the SN piano sounds. Believe it or not I'm really only interested in the new MP's for their take on classic Rhodes sounds. I do like the "new" character of Kawai's latest technology, however I'm unsure how things like decay in the AP sounds will do. I agree that The Yamaha CP1's EPs are great, but I can't stand the user interface. Roland's UI is just so much more intuitive and enjoyable to customize sounds with. Once again the problem with this whole Kawai situation is availability to test out. I for certain could not or will not buy an instrument without playing it first.
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#1539685 - 10/20/10 07:42 PM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Rhodie73]
Hideki Matsui Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 785
My complaint with most DPs have been the actions. I need something more similar to a graded acoustic grand action for extensive evening and nighttime practicing. The actions on digital pianos like the CP1 and V are a little too easy on the fingers. I'm waiting for the Shigeru SK3 to arrive and want a digital piano that can allow me to practice at night without sacrificing too much in the way of a real grand action. The sound is important to me, but living with CP1 has made me realize that I need an action closer to a grand more than I need the cutting edge in digital piano sound.

I'm surprised you found the CP1 interface frustrating. It is pretty simple compared to the CP5 and very limited given the limited nature of the CP1.

Edit: I was just playing the EP sounds on my CP1 and i don't think I want to give those up either.

Originally Posted By: Rhodie73
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
I wonder how the MP10's amp simulations on the electric pianos will compare to the CP1? The EPs on the CP1 are incredible and the signal processing really set them apart from the CP5. Im pretty confident I will prefer the action on the Kawai. If they have a Shigeru EX in there, I know I will love the piano sounds. My only hesitation on pre-ordeing one is not knowing anything about their EPs and the amp modeling they are doing on the MP10.



I'm in the same boat. However, I worry about the looping issues that might be noticeable in the Acoustic Piano sounds. I have a Roland RD700GXF and have been totally spoiled by the SN piano sounds. Believe it or not I'm really only interested in the new MP's for their take on classic Rhodes sounds. I do like the "new" character of Kawai's latest technology, however I'm unsure how things like decay in the AP sounds will do. I agree that The Yamaha CP1's EPs are great, but I can't stand the user interface. Roland's UI is just so much more intuitive and enjoyable to customize sounds with. Once again the problem with this whole Kawai situation is availability to test out. I for certain could not or will not buy an instrument without playing it first.



Edited by Hideki Matsui (10/20/10 08:51 PM)
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
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#1539687 - 10/20/10 07:48 PM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Jeff Clef]
Hideki Matsui Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 785
I have a feeling they are going to fall a little short of the CP1 on the EP sounds, but will provide and action closer to a grand. I believe the Rolands and Yamahas only use weighted actions but not graded.

I figured I should switch to the MP10 to make my night time practicing more consistent with my practice time on the SK3.


Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
"...I wonder how the MP10's amp simulations on the electric pianos will compare..."

We all wonder, Hideki. I'm very interested to see, hear, and try the MP10--- and can't offer any opinion before I do.

For a company with no marketing to speak of, this is quite a buzz. I might be buzzing more myself, if I weren't breaking my brains on 1200 pages of Cubase manual and another 1000 of Sibelius. (And double-acrostics sets from Tascam, and Kawai, and E-Mu; 3-D Scrabble, and in Japanese. But, no whining--- I did it to myself).

Sure, I want the whole package--- sounds, MIDI controller, sequencer, processing, all onboard--- but the action is the part no one has really nailed yet. I just wonder if they've been brilliant enough to configure the new DPs to accept an aftermarket add-on ROM upgrade... just possibly, partnering with a company that specializes in those big sample sets.

I am a little curious why the MP10's weight would be such a deal-breaking hot button issue. I was able to handle the MP8ii on my own, with not much back left to put into it. There are lightweight two-wheeled hand trucks. Two minutes of help per gig, where there are stairs. One of those beer-cooler type cases--- decent protection with not much weight.

My tech used to be a piano mover (real pianos) before he got his training. He told me that guys who think it's all about muscle are the ones that get hurt. Leverage, balance, packing safely, handling the mass right, patience, and a fairly small amount of specialized gear.

_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#1539734 - 10/20/10 09:06 PM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Deffie]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 568
Loc: Atlanta, GA
So...is the MP6 in stores yet in the US?

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#1539760 - 10/20/10 09:56 PM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: hpeterh]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8370
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
hpeterh,

Originally Posted By: hpeterh
It seems to me that the distance Front<->Pivot is a little bit larger for the white keys of the AWA Grand Pro.


No, I'm afraid you are incorrect. Having measured three different generations of Kawai wooden-key action: 'AWA Grand', 'AWA Grand Pro', and 'RM3 Grand', I can confidently state that for white keys, the distance from the balance pin to the front of the key has remained unchanged: 188 mm.

Originally Posted By: hpeterh
They wanted to make a smaller cheaper keyboard, in order to build smaller and cheaper pianos.


Not true (see above).

Originally Posted By: hpeterh
So they made the white keys shorter...


Again, not true (see above) - the length of the white key remains unchanged at 325 mm

Originally Posted By: hpeterh
...and the black keys got a shifted pivot.


Assuming you are referring to the latest 'RM3 Grand' action, you are indeed correct - the balance pin (pivot point) of the black keys has been moved approximately 18 mm further back. This helps the weighting and pivot angle of the black keys to be an even closer representation of that of an acoustic piano.



Originally Posted By: hpeterh
For the white keys they have definitely the shortest keys ;-)


Not true (see above).

Originally Posted By: hpeterh
A layman will have a hard time to see wether the left or the right pivot belongs to the white key. It is so unclear.


The front balance pin (the right pin in the picture you linked to) is for the white keys, the back balance pin (the left pin in the picture you linked to) is for the black keys - just like an acoustic piano.

Indeed, the image that you linked to is actually a shot of the 'RM3 Grand' action model display produced for Kawai dealers to help explain the various features of the action to store visitors. When seen first hand, I believe it should be clear which balance pins are used for the black and white keys.



And if you look a little more closely at the attached explanation board, you will see an image of an acoustic piano action that further reinforces the 'RM3 Grand' balance pin placement.



My apologies for this rather lengthy post, however I believe it is important that individuals who write false information as fact are promptly corrected.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1539773 - 10/20/10 10:22 PM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Hideki Matsui]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8370
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Hideki / Jeff,

I have still yet to play the CP1 (Yamaha's latest stage pianos are unfortunately not available in any of the music stores here in Hamamatsu), however I have used a number of virtual instruments and own a Nord Electro and can tell you that the MP10's EPs sound pretty bloody good.

The amp sims definitely add an extra layer of realism to the sound too - it's not just a case of a bit more treble here or a tad more bass there, it give the sounds a completely different character.

I'm a 60's/70's soul/funk nut, so like to think I know a thing or two about classic EP sounds. I was actually preparing myself to be disappointed by the MP10's new EPs, given the amount of work that went into perfecting the acoustic piano sounds, however when I started playing the prototypes for myself I was really blown away - I honestly couldn't believe I was playing a Kawai!

I have some really great audio demos here which should reinforce be available from the Kawai Europe website once their MP10 page goes live - I'll keep you posted.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1539791 - 10/20/10 10:52 PM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Kawai James]
Hideki Matsui Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 785
Thanks for the input. The EPs are my only area of concern as I obviously love the Shigeru Kawai sound and would love to have a digital Shigeru EX to match my SK3.

How would you compare the EPs to your Nord or something like the Korg SV1?

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Hideki / Jeff,

I have still yet to play the CP1 (Yamaha's latest stage pianos are unfortunately not available in any of the music stores here in Hamamatsu), however I have used a number of virtual instruments and own a Nord Electro and can tell you that the MP10's EPs sound pretty bloody good.

The amp sims definitely add an extra layer of realism to the sound too - it's not just a case of a bit more treble here or a tad more bass there, it give the sounds a completely different character.

I'm a 60's/70's soul/funk nut, so like to think I know a thing or two about classic EP sounds. I was actually preparing myself to be disappointed by the MP10's new EPs, given the amount of work that went into perfecting the acoustic piano sounds, however when I started playing the prototypes for myself I was really blown away - I honestly couldn't believe I was playing a Kawai!

I have some really great audio demos here which should reinforce be available from the Kawai Europe website once their MP10 page goes live - I'll keep you posted.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#1539803 - 10/20/10 11:04 PM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Hideki Matsui]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8370
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Hideki,

I'm afraid I haven't tried the SV-1 (similar story as with the Yamaha CP1 - the market for stage pianos in Japan is tiny...you just don't find them in stores), however the demo MP3s I have heard (one from a recent vintage EP round-up in a German magazine) do sound absolutely terrific. I'd say the MP10's EPs can definitely hold-up to the best of what I have heard from the SV-1.

As for my Nord, well it's the older Electro 2, so is getting a little old now. I still love the board, however the decay of the EPs in the treble do tend to fall away pretty quickly - I notice that a lot more these days.

I can remember when I was working on the MP10 owner's manual, I'd return home to play on my Nord and would feel rather disappointed that I couldn't tweak the sounds just a little more (something that is considerably improved in the Electro 3, I gather). Regardless, there's no way I could cycle to band practises with an MP10 strapped to my back, so will continue to use the Electro 2 for a while longer (perhaps until I can upgrade to the Electro 3...).

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1539884 - 10/21/10 01:47 AM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Kawai James]
AldoEsplay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 69
Test time!

Here's a side view made from the pictures that Mucci posted of the RM3, PHA III, and real grand actions. I scaled each image so that there is an identical distance from the front of the key to the fallboard. I then traced the motion that the white key surface would sweep through as the key is depressed.

Here they are in no particular order:


For what it's worth, there is a slight (less than 1 degree) difference in the angle of the key top at rest. Here are the three 'key up' lines superimposed:


There's very little difference between these actions, despite the different pivot points. Based on this, I think the pivot point for white keys is much less significant than other factors. Maybe I'll do the same for black keys.

Feel free to guess. 1 in 6 is a winner.

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#1539896 - 10/21/10 02:26 AM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Hideki Matsui]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
My complaint with most DPs have been the actions. I need something more similar to a graded acoustic grand action for extensive evening and nighttime practicing. The actions on digital pianos like the CP1 and V are a little too easy on the fingers. I'm waiting for the Shigeru SK3 to arrive and want a digital piano that can allow me to practice at night without sacrificing too much in the way of a real grand action. The sound is important to me, but living with CP1 has made me realize that I need an action closer to a grand more than I need the cutting edge in digital piano sound.

It sounds like what you are looking for is a Yamaha Avantgrand...If you can afford a Steinway or Shigeru then affording an Avantgrand shouldn't be the issue and you will then have two genuine grand piano keybaords to play and practice on. Alternatively you could buy a Kawai ATX hybrid pianos which would provide you with three instruments: your Shigeru grand, a high rated acoustic upright and a state of art digital practice piano with a genuine Kawai action.

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#1539897 - 10/21/10 02:27 AM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Deffie]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8370
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
AldoEsplay, interesting test, however is the Roland action perfectly parallel with the camera in the image posted? It looks like it's already a few degrees off-centre (we can see the sides/backs of the metal construction below the key, for example).

Nice idea though - 10 out of 10 for effort. wink

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
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"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1539950 - 10/21/10 04:53 AM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Deffie]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: The Netherlands
James, although you're a Kawai employee I value your input (as largely non-biased). Considering that you are really so enthusiastic about the EP's on the MP10 and on the MP10 as a whole, you made me doubt again. Should I throw away my weight concerns and see what it has to offer...? So, some more questions.

Can these EP programs that you are so happy with also be found on the MP6 ? Perhaps in less tweakable form, but with the same basic material ?

Can you use the MP10 as a master controller (using zones and layers for external instruments) in the same flexible way as the MP6, or is it really another approach and more a basic stage piano instead of controller ?

Are both instruments firmware upgradable and do you think that controlling the drawbars by an external MIDI box will be possible in a future release for the MP6 ? You don't have to promise , but just tell us if this is likely to happen or perhaps not possible at all.

Thanks

J

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#1539957 - 10/21/10 05:36 AM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Kawai James]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
hpeterh,

Originally Posted By: hpeterh
It seems to me that the distance Front<->Pivot is a little bit larger for the white keys of the AWA Grand Pro.


No, I'm afraid you are incorrect. Having measured three different generations of Kawai wooden-key action: 'AWA Grand', 'AWA Grand Pro', and 'RM3 Grand', I can confidently state that for white keys, the distance from the balance pin to the front of the key has remained unchanged: 188 mm.

Originally Posted By: hpeterh
They wanted to make a smaller cheaper keyboard, in order to build smaller and cheaper pianos.


Not true (see above).

Originally Posted By: hpeterh
So they made the white keys shorter...


Again, not true (see above) - the length of the white key remains unchanged at 325 mm

Originally Posted By: hpeterh
...and the black keys got a shifted pivot.


Assuming you are referring to the latest 'RM3 Grand' action, you are indeed correct - the balance pin (pivot point) of the black keys has been moved approximately 18 mm further back. This helps the weighting and pivot angle of the black keys to be an even closer representation of that of an acoustic piano.




OK, James thank you.
Obviously, as I see now, the length of the white surface was increased. So it looks shorter, but it is not shorter.
Obviously I was in error about that, I am sorry, but at the same time I am glad to learn this.
So most probably the RM3 should be really improved in all aspects and I am glad to hear that.

I am just a gearhead and rely much on facts. What they always say - go and try it - is impossible to do for an unexperienced beginner. There are always facts that a beginner will not see or feel or know and so I rely much onto measurable facts.

If I dont have the skills to set my fingers between the black keys and play there, then I cannot try this in a reasonable way.

As soon as I have to pay a lot of money, my brain will make the decision and not my feel. (I am also sure, if somebody adresses my feel and at the same time wants to sell something, then he will fool me) So I want to know facts.

If for example, somebody has the habit to play preferrably at a 50% depth into the keys, then I think he will need much more force on any digital than on a real grand.

On the digital he will have a leverarm ratio of 1:2 and on a real grand in this case he will have about 2:3 lever arm translation.

I think this is more or less the case for all digitals, and I still hold it for true that Kawai keys have shorter lever arms for the white keys than Yamaha GH(3) keys, but after the RM3 appeared, this was obviously improved for the black keys, so Kawai probably would win in this case.

However what all manufacturers claim: "This is an accurrate modelled action that behaves like a grand piano action", this claim is simply untrue, because this only is true if the keys are played at the front. If the keys are pressed at the end, the double force would be required on any digital.

This is a result of simple geometric and physical laws and no manufacturer can violate these laws.

Peter



Edited by hpeterh (10/21/10 07:17 AM)
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#1539992 - 10/21/10 07:02 AM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: mucci]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: mucci
Originally Posted By: theJourney

The RM3 on the CA63 doesn't even implement it.
Two is one fewer sensor than three.
Not being an implemented feature and having fewer sensors is pretty good proof that the feature is not implemented and that there are fewer sensors.


Again, you're only looking at the design and not how the actions feels.

No. I would argue that how an action feels is subordinate in importance to how it performs. We don't play just for the sensual aspect of fingers on keys but rather for the ability to articulate i.e. what sounds our physical motions on the keyboard can produce (and the success that our sounds have in eliciting an appropriate emotional response in our listener.)

The post I responded to (and the dialog to which you have inserted yourself between) was from a poster that asserted that the RM3 has characteristics that are a must have for a classical pianist. Yet, we have learned that the letoff simulation and double escapement simulation -- both key aspects of feel and performance of an acoustic grand piano action demanded by the classical literature -- are not even implemented on the RM3! Posters report rather consistently that the characteristic resistance is missing from the RM3 keyboard as most commonly implemented (e.g. on the CA63) and that they are not able to repeat keys as rapidly as on competing digital keyboards containing a third sensor. For these "key" aspects, both the feel and performance of the RM3 keyboard on the CA63 has been reported to be objectively inferior by those experienced classical pianists when comparing the actions in side by side auditions to competing dp actions and to acoustic grand piano actions.
Originally Posted By: mucci

Originally Posted By: theJourney

And your individual taste has you jury rigging a netbook loaded with Pianoteq to get an acceptable tone. Do you see the hypocrisy? See the DPMSD thread for more details on the objective proof the less organic sounding decay for example.


You take whatever you like to get proof of your biased opinion, eh? I would also use a similar combination with both Roland and Yamaha DPs. I even like the sound of Kawai DPs better than Roland SN, but that's personal taste. I stated that several times, but you seem to ignore this (deliberately?).

Well, if you don't remember your posts about being 100% happy with the Kawai sound signature but disappointed in its static, short, unrealistic decay and don't believe yourself, simply examine the many posts of those who are very Kawai loyal but still complain about the sound. Or those that want Kawai to build a sound-less action. Or that won't buy a Kawai without connectivity to ignore its onboard sound to be replaced by a software solution. Or those that wish Kawai had a similarly realistic sound engine to Roland's Supernatural. There are a lot of those posts here. Ignoring them would be represenative of a close-minded bias.


Edited by theJourney (10/21/10 07:06 AM)

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#1540020 - 10/21/10 07:51 AM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Kawai James]
AldoEsplay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
AldoEsplay, interesting test, however is the Roland action perfectly parallel with the camera in the image posted?


Not perfectly. I adjusted as much as possible for perspective. Obviously not as accurate as a good CAD drawing or actual measurements.

Care to wager which is which?

Regards,
Aldo

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#1540050 - 10/21/10 08:32 AM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: theJourney]
Hideki Matsui Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 785
I auditioned the Avantgrand and almost bit. I thought it was nice piece with a perfect action for practicing, but it is not portable at all. I need my digital to be portable because I occasionally work with a singer. Furthermore, unless I couldn't have an acoustic, I would never spend that much on a digital piano. Some come close in sound but simply can't compare to practicing and playing on an acoustic grand.

I would certainly love to have the Avantgrand as a practice instrument at night, but if I can find something more portable with a great action, that would be ideal. If my CP1 had a heavier graded action it would be perfect. I haven't had good experiences with my Rolands, but I'm going to give the NX a look as I haven't felt the new action.

Originally Posted By: theJourney
It sounds like what you are looking for is a Yamaha Avantgrand...If you can afford a Steinway or Shigeru then affording an Avantgrand shouldn't be the issue and you will then have two genuine grand piano keybaords to play and practice on. Alternatively you could buy a Kawai ATX hybrid pianos which would provide you with three instruments: your Shigeru grand, a high rated acoustic upright and a state of art digital practice piano with a genuine Kawai action.
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#1540057 - 10/21/10 08:54 AM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Hideki Matsui]
Hideki Matsui Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 785
Regarding classical pianists and their digital preferences... although it is great that classical piece can be played on a digital piano, I doubt any classical pianist would want to rely on digital piano as their sole instrument for practice or performance. Pianos like the Avantgrand might be suitable for practice because of the keyboard, but most stage pianos like the CP1 or V Piano mess up your technique if you practice on them exclusively. Furthermore, even though digital pianos produce really good sound they don't compare to a proper acoustic grand in the settings in which classical music is most likely performed.

I'm hoping the MP10 has really good sound with an excellent action that will allow me to use it for practicing at night without feeling vastly different from the MKIII action on the Shigeru.


Edited by Hideki Matsui (10/21/10 08:55 AM)
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Roland LX-15e
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#1540061 - 10/21/10 09:02 AM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: AldoEsplay]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2321
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Here's my stab at it...

A: Roland PHA
B: Kawai RM3
C: Real Grand

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1540065 - 10/21/10 09:10 AM Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Deffie]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
theJourney, you are definitely only counting those posts that strengthen your point of view and ignore all other posts. That's not helpful at all, and it certainly does not reflect the general notion of people (including professional pianists) on this board.
Where do people state that RM3 does not allow rapid repetition, especially compared to people that state that there is no repetition problem?
Where do people state that they definitely miss the escapement resistance of CA63 RM3 keyboard (it's there on CA93 if you really want it)?
So where does anyone state that because of this the RM3 keyboard is "objectively inferior" to the other keyboard actions?
Where do I state that the Kawai sound is inferior to other DP sounds?
Where do I ignore posts that complain about Kawai sound and action?

I always tell people to try the DP models they are interested in to then decide which one to buy, and that's then absolutely fine. You are, for whatever reason (I had to point this out several times) bashing Kawai DPs. I don't get it. Whether it's marketing, crippled cheaper models, communication, overall market presence, local store support, European website, firmware support, overall build quality, sound, useless wood design just for marketing, model strategy, ludicrous videos (only in German), faulty keyboards, ... and comments with lots of sarcasm. You could get the impression that Kawai is the worst ever brand (maybe except for James). Do you really believe what you post?
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