Thanks, interesting. But: How could you measure it that exactly? Someone should measure this with actually getting the action models to see if this is right. On the other side: Does this really matter? I can't tell.

Happens I had lunch with my local Kawai dealer yesterday, and got to play a truly yummy SK3 with Pyramid Mahogany veneer, that they had on the floor. If I had it to do over... however, the new RX was VERY very nice, too; I was a little surprised to look inside the case and see that it was but a lowly RX-1.

I would imagine that to play like an MIII action you would have to be an MIII action. If the MP10 can come anywhere close, they're going to scare the life out of the Big Boys.

We'll see. Santa is going to break his back getting all those keyboards down the chimney this year.

Had to guess a little on measurements. They are limited by the quality of the pictures as well as the assumptions I had to make about how the keys move around they're pivot points.

The main point is that even though the mechanisms are quite different with lever lengths, pivot points, and other stuff, the actual motion of the keys is pretty similar. The other point is that the pictures tell you very little about the differences in the actual motion. It's kind of like watching sausage being made versus eating it.

In the end, it's more fun and games than science.

Demanded by the classical literature? So you can't play Chopin on an upright? (Tell that to all the music students practicing in the rehearsal rooms at the universities...)

If I could find a stage piano that felt and sounded as good as a quality upright, I'd be thrilled. The features you're demanding are nice extras, but hardly essential to a quality experience.

It's kind of like power seats in a car. They're nice to have. They would make a Toyota Corolla just a little more like a Lexus. But it's hardly the most important difference between a Corolla and a top of the line Lexus, and if the power seats in the Lexus broke, the Lexus without power seats would still drive more like a Lexus than would the Corolla with power seats.


Even if that's true, for an individual purchaser, it may only be important that a key be able to repeat as quickly as he needs it to repeat.

I think that there is a forest-for-the-trees problem here. You have to consider the feel of the action as a whole. There are too many variables, too many aspects of design that simply don't reduce to checkmarks in a marketing grid.

It's easy to get hung up on these things, because the manufacturers are marketing them as important features. It's their job to make you think that whatever features they implemented are the features you most need. But it's not necessarily true. You need to actually play the things.

It's similar to what I said on the low end, about the Casio PX-130 and the Yamaha P-95. On paper, the Casio looks much better. 4-layer sampling instead of one, the tri-sensor feature, pedal-down string resonance. Looking at a checklist, it's clear which one to buy. But in reality, to me, the P-95 played much more like a real piano, the action and velocity response felt more natural... and the only way to know is to play them, that's the only real test. You may wish that you could determine what's best by looking at technical documents, but unfortunately, a musical instrument simply doesn't reduce to a feature list.

anotherscott: Amen!

Nice catch. I immediately began to think of measurement tolerance and error, and propagation of error (a small error in measurement can be amplified if you take a near 0 angular measurement and apply a trig function to determine, for example, location of a pivot point).

You point out a more obvious flaw in the mis-measurement by the video device in the variation among video devices in aspect of the shot.

Weird that all us math geeks love music.

Well I didn't mean to generate such amount of discussion here about actions here, so I'll open a new thread, my point was that given the nature of Kawai's action, making a lighter Scene Piano is very difficult. BTW, I think the Roland pics are of a PHAII action.

Just a note: I'm really having a lot trouble choosing between Roland and Kawai! They are quite different but I can't tell which action I prefer, I guess I'll need to perform more testing

Of course both are really good but you cannot compare them to a good acoustic, is like the difference from a turtle plastic toy to a real living turtle, but unfortunately for some of us a DP is the only choice for now. IMHO a classical pianist should always perform on an acoustic, no discussion about that.

I tend to play better with the Roland, but the Kawai action IMVHO seems more similar to an acoustic one. I'm just guessing that having "real" wooden keys will mean you can "feel" the
key's weight better, so I jumped to the conclusion that it is mandatory to use a long-key, hammer based mechanism instead of the compact ones, but I'm afraid I cannot really back that with conclusive evidence.

Not so weird. Music has a consistent mathematic base. If you take a note, the octave above is exactly twice the frequency, a fifth is 3/2 times the base frequency, and a fourth 4/3. The diatonic scale is not arbitrary at all. Circle of fifths, what about circle of fifths?

Of course, a mathematician may lack any musical skill, and a musician may feel aversion to mathematics, but there is a subtle link between the two.

Hehe, a very obvious link! I even think that if you are a mathematics enthusiast, you might at least learn the musical theory much better. But of course it's only a side aspect...

I hate break it to ya but .... Oh nothing ..

You mean - Santa's not delivering anything to Rimmer because of his bad behaviour during this year! Oh my!

No one drinks all my brandy and gets allowed back in..

Thanks Steve. I sent you a PM with the answers.

Aldo

IMO the RM3 keyboard is in the same class of instruments as the CP1, VPiano and others that "mess up your technique if you practice on them exclusively."



Well, you don't have to wait for the MP10 to try out the RM3 action (assuming you can find a store within a day's travel that stocks the CA93/CA63). You will find that the RM3 action is not to the SK3 what the Avantgrand action is to the C3. Not by a long shot. If that is what you are really looking for, it is going to be a long wait IMO. Ideally, I would play the MP10, MP6, RD700NX and FP7F all side by side next to your CP1. You might decide that there is little reason to switch.

We seem to be having the same shopping experience...

It is difficult to come to a conclusion partly because the more one plays them the more one realizes that the distance between what the digital can do and what an acoustic can do is still so great. Each manufacturer has a plastic turtle with different relative advantages and disadvantages, but they remain plastic turtles.

I personally wouldn't call them plastic turtles (since they are not that far away from a real grand action) but basically you're absolutely right.

That said, I need a DP at home for quiet practice... No other way possible.

The problem with my CP is that the action is too light and not graded. My past Roland actions (700SX and Fantom G8)just didn't feel right to me and were also too light. On top of that I hated the piano sounds on my Rolands. I'm hoping that the RM3 proves to be a slightly heavier graded action that will give my fingers a little more of a workout. I know it won't compare to the amazing MKIII action but I'm hoping for something a little more similar to an acoustic grand action.

I will not be practicing on my digital exclusively, but I do practice enough at night that I do want something more consistent with my acoustic action.

I have no interest in the FP series or MP6, but I'm waiting for GC to open so I can go check out the NX.

Are you sure?
I know of few pianists who would turn down an incredible gift such as this one:
http://www.kawai.de/k5atx_en.htm

...or this one:
http://www.kawai.de/rx2atx_de.htm

Will be very interesting to hear how you find the RD700NX stacks up against the MP10. Please give us the full report!

I'm totally confused right now because I really love the EP section on the CP1. I'm beginning to think the CP1 was designed around the EPs rather than the APs, especially given the extra levels of signal processing in that section. In any case I don't think I can give those up.

I'm definitely going to check out both the NX and MP10. If I buy one, it will probably be based on the action. The ideal alternative would be to get a Kawai silent piano for night practice and keep my CP1 for my electric moments. Unfortunately splurging on the SK3 has me thinking a little more practically on the digital end.

I need to add: For the money I can spend. I had a fix limit of 2000 Euro (which drove me at first towards the CLP340 as this one was 1999 Euro ), and I was slightly over budget with the CA63, so, no way for the very nice but expensive silent alternatives.

I think that's true. The APs in the latest CP series are not top-of-the-line Yamaha sample sets (the best Yamaha I've tested and heard is AvantGrand - no stretching but fairly short loop samples).

I dont think so. CP1 and PHAIII are not comparable. CP1 is nongraded and PHAIII has double escapement and a longer lever translation. (But still shorter than a Grand)

This is a Schimmel upright action that has a very high reputation:



The Kawai RM3 is clearly in the class of upright actions.
That however, is true more or less for all digitals.
These actions of course are also heavier at the bass side. Some of them even have double escapement, but only top models.
Good uprights have a lighter touch to compensate the disadvantage of the shorter lever. Unfortunately digitals dont emulate this but try to be as heavy as a grandpiano. This catapults some of them into the class of oldfashioned anno 1900 uprights. Some people want this for fingertraining.

The Schimmel uprights have a real, measured upweight of 40-50 g /inclusive/ friction. (modern high end Schimmels use magnets for friction reduction)
The RM3 is approx 60g /exclusive/ friction.
(The weights that Kawai specifies for their digitals are theoretic values without friction, not measured values)
My AWA Grand pro was up to 80g measured /inklusive/ friction.
That was before I opened and re-adjusted it.

If somebody says the RM3 plays like a Kawai RX then he is probably incompetent. What do they smoke at Kawai? It doesnt even play like a very good upright. That of course doesnt mean that it is a bad action.

A grandpiano action has a much longer lever translation like this or even more.


So why do all vendors market their digitals as a grandpiano surrogate? Because they think their customers are totally unknowing and idiots, and unfortunately, if you go into a piano store and listen the conversations between buyers and sellers, I must say, yes, most of them are.

There is another difference between serious acoustics and digitals and this is probably the most important:

Numeric data about keyboard and hammer mechanics geometry and -weights is not kept secret. Some times it is published and sometimes it is available on request. This is important data that characterizes the action to a professional dealer or tech or player.
For digitals this data is kept confidential, because diskussion about these parameters is unwanted.

Peter

Good morning JFP,



Thank you.



I believe you should purchase the instrument that brings you the most musical enjoyment, then worry about the weight issue.



The MP6 features some of the MP10's EPs sounds but in a condensed form (PHI vs UPHI).



Correct, the MP6's sounds are less tweakable. Some of the basic sounds in the two models are indeed from the same sampling source, however as suggested above, the MP10 has much larger sample sets.



The MP10 can be used as a master controller, however the board's MIDI section can only be used to control one external instrument (i.e. one MIDI channel) at a time.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, the MP10 concept is dramatically different to all other MPs - the 'four assignable zones' approach has been replaced by 'four fixed sections' (PIANO, E.PIANO, SUB, MIDI). While you can of course layer two or more sections together, it is not possible to layer two sounds from the same section, or freely assign sounds from one section to another.



Yes, as with the CA93/CA63, software updates can be loaded via USB memory.



Currently the MP6's tonewheel organ sim. doesn't allow individual drawbars to be controlled by MIDI. However, it is theoretically possible for this behaviour to be changed with future software updates. I obviously cannot promise anything, however if there is strong demand from MP6 owners for such a feature, we would obviously have to listen to their requests and consider implementing the functionality. But as I say, no promises.

Cheers,
James
x

I noticed the MP10 seems to have the RM3 with Let-off like the CA 93. The CA 63 does not have the Let-off feature. I'm hoping to find a CA93 to try the keyboard. I'm assuming the MP10 will feel and perform exactly the same.

I wish that would work for me, but with a back screwed from a lifetime of hauling gear, I have to think practically.



This is where it gets tricky. You can squeeze the life out of something by condensing it, or you can make it almost indistinguishable from the original. We have no idea where the MP6 falls on this spectrum.



I don't mind the loss of "tweakability" providing the MP6 has the most usable selection of the MP10's AP/EP samples.

The problem, as always, is that all the discussions about action/sounds of these two DPs are theoretical, since 9 out of 10 of us will probably not be able to find one to test. So I come back to something that I'm surprised Kawai has not implemented to counteract their lack of showrooms: why not have a traveling roadshow that could call at major cities on each continent to allow players to test the wares? Publicize on the web and through online sellers. A truck, a few factory samples, a driver and a demonstrator and (to use a British expression) Bob's your uncle!

The APs on the CP1 and CP5 are the same and go through the same signal processing. The CP1 and CP5 are very different when it comes to signal processing on the EP side, producing a much superior set of EPs on the CP1.

I think the amp modeling and tweakability of the MP10 might end up producing a similar type of difference between the MP10 and MP6. I hope they make the MP10s EP section worth the price of admission.

Of course that is just me guessing. Maybe a more informed source can chime in.

(my apologies to voxpops, Kawai James, and Neil D.)

It's Love, Brother Love say Brother Love's traveling Kawai DP show
Pack up the babies and grab the old ladies and everyone goes
'Cause everyone knows 'bout Brother Love's show

Wow that is quite a list you have there. The fact that one manufacturer has a list that long and still is in business must speak volumes about their actual product quality and/or the brand loyalty of their existing customers...

I wouldn't consider calling putting my finger on the sore spots Kawai bashing....It is rather something more akin to "tough love".

After all, I have personally spent ten times more on Kawai musical instruments during the past decade than on any other brand. This despite the valid and inexcusable points which many or even most of us are repeatedly faced with, including having to jump through hoops and spend lots of personal time and money just to have the privilege to audition the instruments, let alone the inconvenience of finding a place to buy them...

I definitely believe what I post. The fact that this thread has almost 30000 hits to date indicates that I am not the only one very interested in Kawai's new MP6 and MP10 nor am I alone in wanting them to adapt to succeed.