Haha! This is your personal annoyance list I try to recall, not mine. I certainly identified weak points (and clearly stated them here, with sufficient explanation, e.g. sound issues). You build a big picture out of very little own experience (at least for Kawai DPs), some complaints of Kawai users, and lots of biased assumptions based on specs, and put them into a, well, "tough" language as you stated it.

You often repeated statement that you're playing a Kawai acoustic piano as a proof that you're not generally against Kawai DPs is quite weak in this context.

The point again is: You have to test the DPs you want to buy to make a decision. If you (I mean the DP buyer) are not engaged enough to find a place where you can test Kawai products, well, then that is one lost customer, so what. Kawai is a small company compared to Yamaha and Roland and Casio. Marketing and model presence in stores cost you real money. These figures are fictious, but while Yamaha sells 1.000 DPs, Kawai might sell 100, so if marketing and presenting test models is about the same percentage of the budget for both companies, Kawai can only be present in 1/10 of the stores compared to Yamaha. That's a significant difference. So - it's a pity, but it's a fact.

Well, I'm again in a defending mode for Kawai which I definitely don't want to be since I want to discuss much more important aspects here, but there is something in your posts that keep me writing stuff like this... Guess why (I assume your answer if any will again keep me writing an answer! ).

I can't imagine that Kawai would be happy with you being responsible for their marketing...

It is perhaps an attitude of the Deutches Mittelstand that customers are a dime a dozen or even bothersome and that losing one or not gaining one is of no concern -- good riddance! -- however, I certainly don't believe that a company such as Kawai is uninterested in selling their products in the way that a Munich Bretzel baker closing her doors a half hour early on Saturday afternoon despite the waiting line at her door is.

theJourney, I won't comment on this since you just take one sentence out of the context, misinterpret it and making fun of it... I would have welcomed it if you could reply to my entire post.

This is the nub of the problem - and a Catch 22 for Kawai. Insufficient marketing budget means fewer customers means insufficient marketing budget. I think a lot of us would be motivated to seek out Kawai DPs to test, but while that's just about doable with the home range, the stage pianos are pretty much not to be found, except sealed in online sellers' warehouses.

Supposing I could find one at Sweetwaters in Indiana, that would be almost a 5,000 mile round trip for me. That cost in addition to the purchase price would make the Kawai prohibitively expensive, and would be "wasted" altogether if I decided not to buy it.

In the end it's more likely to be a calculated judgment as to whether the specifications look good enough to risk ordering one sight-unseen. With the strength of the competition from Roland etc., that is a tough call to make. This is why a lot of us are appealing to current owners to try to give as objective an analysis as possible on their experiences with Kawai's latest actions and sound technology.

Being British by birth, I have an inclination to support the underdog, but also believe that smaller companies are often more motivated to push the boundaries as well as to offer a little bit more to their customers. So I would love to have the opportunity to give Kawai my business, but I also think that they have to reach out to us to help us make that decision. James communicates admirably, but seems to be hamstrung by company policy to a certain extent, and is unable to pass on the truly useful information that would help us make informed decisions despite the lack of Kawai's physical presence on the ground. I do hope that in the near future, Kawai will make some bold attempts at marketing their wares more definitively.

I really hope the have upgraded the action.and that it will be kawais best action .

if not i will go with the roland RD700NX

no mention of it on the us site, no wird of when will it come to the US?

Well said. I'm with all of that!

I wonder what the serious downside would be for Kawai to cut a deal with someplace like Costco or GC or BestBuy, just to get their product some showroom space. I don't have the impression that the piano dealerships want or know what to do with them. (Too bad, in a way, because their own fortunes may depend greatly on widening their user base.)

It reminds me somewhat of the situation with Atari Computers. There was a time when they were actually ahead of IBM and Mac in sales; in faithful, installed user base on three continents; in developers. (In fact, their emulator would run Mac programs faster than the Mac, which deeply shocked some Mac partisans.) Gone today, of course; run into the ground by the owners. And, a few revs of Windows later, it didn't seem to matter so much--- anyway, it was too late.)

It could work both ways--- a piano store could partner with one of the online music big boys. Show their stuff, make the sale, it's shipped out that day; both take a rake-off and unit sales go up. Send piano shoppers home with a CD made on the spot in the store to help them hear the difference in the pianos they're considering. Foot traffic and aftermarket sales never hurt a retail outfit any.

Effective marketing has the power to turn even something as worthless as a pack of cigarettes into a 'must have' name-brand necessity. If I didn't drop dead from shock, it would do me a lot of good to see a TV commercial or magazine ad for pianos. They are even able to market bowel movements on television these days--- I only wish it were an exaggeration.

Kawai is in a classic hostage situation. They are hostage to their existing distributors, who, although they are not doing the job properly in most markets are responsible for most sales today. To the extent that existing contracts between Kawai and here distributors don't make a move to new channels impossible, distributors could simply dump Kawai if they started selling in big chains thereby turning today's small sales into no sales for a year or two which could be fatal.

Kawai Europe and Kawai US are in fact owned by Kawai I believe. Its true that neither of these are doing their job but that comes back to the way Kawai Japan runs things.They need to integrate their operations and marketing worldwide but Kawai is a old fashioned family owned company and I'm not sure they understand at a upper management level that today's market is a world market that requires a worldwide approach. Yes they have huge problems especially in the US with a limited dealer network that concentrates on acoustic sales but their sales of acoustic pianos and to a lesser extent console DP's particularly in Asia have been driving the company.Kawai do not strike me as a company that can move quickly to meet market expectations for information but their products are first class.
I've heard a lot of absolute rubbish in this thread about the action of the MP10 being sub par well I can tell you it is one of the best DP actions for authentic feel I've ever played and anyone trying a MP10 would be struck by the sheer quality of the instrument let alone its best in class user interface and the sound ...well lets just say I feel its well worth a comparative listen.
I'm not being a Kawai apologist by any means its true they are difficult to find, have been less forthcoming with detailed information and have a segmented rather then integrated approach to world marketing but please ... look at Roland ...the RD700NX is shipping out of the factory for a few weeks now and the manual still hasn't been uploaded. The MP10 is a ways from shipping and the manual is was available weeks ago.
I'm sure anyone who plays a MP10 will come away impressed its a viable option and people seem to be dismissing it out of hand over how many sensors its got or what the sampling method is called. It's a digital piano ... no matter what marketing or slogans are used ...the proof will be in the playing.

I don't intend to get into this whole discussion, but here's some MP10 audio samples:
http://kawaius.com/main_links/digital/PRO_2010/mp10_audio.html

Aaron

Thank you for posting that link. The MP10 pianos sound very nice. You can hear that there is a wider dynamic range over the MP6: it sounds like there are additional pp velocity layers, at least.

Those sound good. Can't wait to hear the EPs as that will probably be the deciding factor in whether or not I will sell my CP1 and get an MP10.

Interesting. It sounds to me like it is a subtle improvement over the MP6, and not likely the "make or break" difference some have made it out to be. Or put differently, I suspect that someone who likes either one over the Roland SN piano will probably like both of them better; and someone who finds the Roland superior to one of them will probably find it superior to both of them. I think the bigger difference between the MP6 and MP10, from a piano playing perspective, will be in the action rather than in the difference between PHI and UPHI.

Well said.

I think there will big a big difference in the EP sections much like the CP5 and CP1... at least that's what I'm hoping for.

Although the tonal characteristics are similar, the MP10 sounded noticeably better to me. Coming from the CP1 I would not consider th MP6, but the MP10 seems like a real replacement candidate as the design seems similar to the CP1 with the addition of a graded action, recording and metronome/patterns.

Nice detective work Deffie, although it's clear that Kawai America have yet to finalise all of the content on their MP10 pages.

Cheers,
James
x

Please let us know when any EP demos are available. Really want to hear some of those amp sims.

I thought it is supposed to be exactly the same as the CA93. (RM3 + LetOff)

Have you played the CA93? Do you find the MP10 different? In what way?

Thank you for explaining:

Csillag

CSillag,

The MP10 and CA93 actions are identical - both are 'RM3 Grand' with let-off and Ivory Touch key surfaces.

The MP10 shares some of the CA93/CA63 piano sounds, however there are also a number of brand new piano sounds (and additional effects such as 'Damper Noise' and 'Fall Back Noise') that have yet to be featured in a Kawai DP.

You could say that the MP10's sounds are almost like an 'extended' version of UPHI, although no doubt the acronym police would jump on that if we were to ever formally refer to it as such (sigh).

Cheers,
James
x

Oh James ...I could say something but I won't ...

You're under arrest for altering the meaning of a meaningless acronym.

You'd better hide your fake police badge before getting arrested yourself.

More audio demos (including EPs) anyone?

http://kawai.de/mp10_en.htm

Aaron

Doesn't sound like much of a threat to the CP1...

That was a citizen's arrest.

I guess these are also MIDI-playback, no real live playing yet?

Thanks for the link. I find the EP samples quite authentic. I think the Wurlis could do with a couple more layer samples (I remember being able to get quite a sustained bell-like tone in the upper register when playing very softly), but overall they sound very true to the originals. Comparing the Kawai Rhodes to the modeled ones on my GEM Prp800, I'd say that they are very similar, but with a little more "edge" definition in the Kawai, plus release samples which is only emulated in the Clav on the GEM.

I'm not sure the playing style of the demos really does the Kawai justice, but I suspect that the overall package of the MP10 will be very pleasing to a player who likes to be able to play with a lot of tonal color. However, nothing that I've heard so far has led me to alter my initial suspicion that the MP6 is a "dumbed down" version (admittedly with added bells and whistles). I think I cold have been very happy with those samples in the MP6, but I'm now even less inclined to put up with second best simply because Kawai is afraid that an equally good-sounding MP6 will impact MP10 sales. As a result I'm seriously considering the Nord piano for its wonderfully transparent APs, even though I actually think from what I've heard today that the Kawai has the better EP implementation (bigger, more detailed samples, I suspect).

One other side note: the Leslie emulator on the MP6 appears to be of the single-rotor type. I could not detect separate horn and bass baffle emulations. If that's true, it's another minor negative for me.

On a positive note, I think those that can handle the weight of the MP10 will be getting a very attractive deal from Kawai. It's a very different beast from both the competing Roland and Yamaha models. Personally, I really like the sounds. The Roland SN EPs have never done it for me, and the new CP series are too non-intuitive in their GUI and, IMO, don't offer such attractive APs.

The most recently posted kawai.de demos were all recorded live using the MP10's USB audio function. I gather the only 'cheating' was on the Clavinet demo, whereby another person turned the effects processor and amp simulator on and off after each phrase.



Yes, I'm inclined to agree - the style of playing used for the Wurly demos isn't really my cup of tea either. Perhaps I ought to have a crack at recording some of my own Wurly demos? I'm not much of a player, but I reckon I could bash out a handful of R&B riffs that might be a little more suitable for the vintage EP sounds.

Alternatively, I'm sure I could probably 'render' any SMF files I receive using the MP10's tone generator, then make the MP3s available.

Cheers,
James
x

Is a US or Australian/UK citizen allowed to make a citizen's arrest of a Dutch national over a Japanese resident's acronym non-abuse?

Ya gotta love the worldwide web.