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#1543678 - 10/26/10 04:41 AM Kawai CN33
hannibal2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Budapest, Hungary, EU
Hello to All,

I am seriously considering to get a Kawai CN33 this week. Visited the piano store twice last week and played about 1-1.5 hours. The keyboard is awesome, key-off is realistic and the feedback of the keys are soooo realistic, to ma ke it short: this stuff has blown my mind, I'm in love with this piano.

My positive immediate impressions:
-------------------
THe Kawai CN33 is an excellent piece of instrument, greatest keyboard feel ever (tried V-Piano and it's on-par with it for me, although it's different but neither are worse nor better I think. I also tried CA63, it is also excellent, but was a bit "bouncy" I would say, matter of taste again.)

Build quality is great without compromises, finish also is outstanding. Pedals are also rock solid. (unlike Casio PX-800) Keys are stable, ivory rulez. String resonance is realistic, very realistic! Damper resonance simulation is also fine, honestly I was expecting a more articulated effect (even if set to level 10), but yesterday I have tried the Yamaha CLP 340 (afair) with the blue "damper reso on/off) button and to be frank, when I turned on the damper reso effect on the Yamaha it was so artificial and so overemphasized that I think Kawai is more conservative in this respect.

Touch again is class leading! Escapement rulez, ivory is sooo cool! The keyboard is so responsive and so sensitive I was able to get pppp and ffff out easily and the instrument responded to each note like a charm, followed my instructions so nicely like no other I have tried before. (Casio AP200, PX330, PX800, Yamaha YDP 141-161, CLP320, 340, Roland 300GX, HP201) Rolands were too light for me, liked the Yamahas despite being slightly on the heavy side, Casio was ruled out quickly as the keys were loose, pedals were loose also (PX800).

Kawai CN33 is an exceptional instrument (not only because of it's price, but overall) Only some minor questions/observations so far to the audience here:
----------------------------------------
- the piano tone (concert grand 1/2) is a bit metallic, not a burner issue though, and it depends on the actual headphone of course (Sennheiser HD497).
Note: it was perfect via onboard speakers.
Interesting: When compared to CA63, the latter was better (perfect) with no metallic timbre component at all (all on default / reverb off etc, dapmer reso/string reso at their defaults: 5;5)
Is it just me? What do you think?

- String resonance - resonated notes get dropped after a while. (StrReso: keys held, no pedalling) if you press a chord silently like ex. C+E+G and then hit CEG again +1 octave above, it has a very very realistic resonance effect! But if I play another CEG +2 (broken up eg. note by note), those _resonated notes get dropped_ one by one as you play C+2 then E+2 and finally G+2! (CA63 is OK in this respect, no such flaw over there) Why are those beautifully resonated notes get dropped? Is there a separated poliphony limit for resonated notes?

- You cannot press a key at velocity=0; It gives a vel=1 sound either way which is not the way an acoustic piano works. (not a showstopper issue anyway)

Should I contact Kawai regarding the StrReso note-dropping issue and silent note flaw (vel=1) issue? (Note: the latter is reported by the DPBSD project before as well)

Cheers

/z
_________________________
Yamaha CP33, Roland XP10, Fatar SL610

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#1543687 - 10/26/10 05:41 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Interesting that you prefer the CN33 keyboard over the CA63... Maybe this is due to a lighter action. I don't regard the CA63 keyboard as bouncy, in fact it's the least bouncy DP keyboard I've tried so far.

Regarding string resonance dropping notes: That was also an issue on CA63 some time ago, it was fixed with a new firmware release. Maybe the CN33 still has this bug in the current firmware version. On the other side, CA63 has 192 notes polyphony while CN33 only has 96.

Maybe it helps to get to the store a third time during this week and play extensively with all available keyboards (not only CA63 and CN33, but also Roland HP models and Yamaha again), and then decide if your current decision is then still valid. This is because sometimes your taste changes from time to time depending on your current physical and psychological condition...

All the best with your decision!
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1543695 - 10/26/10 06:02 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: mucci]
hannibal2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Budapest, Hungary, EU
Hello Mucci

>Interesting that you prefer the CN33 keyboard over the CA63...

Well, I prefer the CA63 but my wife would kill me in a blink of an eye if I would go with the higher end model. smile

Cheers
_________________________
Yamaha CP33, Roland XP10, Fatar SL610

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#1543701 - 10/26/10 06:11 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Ooops... Okay, I see! wink
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1543709 - 10/26/10 06:33 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: mucci]
hannibal2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Budapest, Hungary, EU
Update: I have contacted Kawai EU with the string reso note drop issue. (germany)

Fingers crossed...!
_________________________
Yamaha CP33, Roland XP10, Fatar SL610

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#1543712 - 10/26/10 06:38 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2380
Loc: UK
Some of the piano voices on the CN33 do have a metallic sound. For certain music I actually like that. There is a quite good mellow piano sound that you can use alone or overlay with the other more metallic piano sounds and adjust the overall tone accordingly. I use two overlaid pianos as my default all the time, either 3-2 or 2-1. It all depends on what you like and what you're playing.

I don't notice the string resonance problem you describe with pedal smile If you're an advanced player and this is an issue for you then spend nearly double the money on a CA63 smile It would be nice if Kawai fixed this but somehow at this price level I suspect they won't.

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#1543728 - 10/26/10 07:15 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: spanishbuddha]
hannibal2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Budapest, Hungary, EU
Hi Spanishbuddha,

The issue happens with no pedalling, just holding a chord and forcing the strings of the chord to resonate by pressing the cord +1 octave above and +2 octave again.

As for the fix: I hope Kawai indeed will fix this issue, not because of the price range but because of the credit of the manufacturer. (I may become a customer for CA63 someday, or a director of a music school... who might want to purchase a dozen DPs in one shot, see..., who knows)

Kawaii customer service has responded already and they are going to double check the issue reported.

So far so good!

cheers
_________________________
Yamaha CP33, Roland XP10, Fatar SL610

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#1543741 - 10/26/10 07:42 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9348
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Sounds good, please keep us updated. wink

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1543744 - 10/26/10 08:00 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
hannibal2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Budapest, Hungary, EU
Hello All

Another question for You guys: How do you rate what do you think about the Damper Resonance effect of the CN33?

(Don't get me wrong, I'm not a geek (despite my job) but my playing style includes popular hit-covers and such which are not necessarily technically challenging but include simple sustained chors (left hand) and a cover for the singer played by the right. These are the sections where a nicely resonating soundboard really shines, and I'm glad that the CN33 has DR effect I just found it a bit conservative. (Reminds me to a bit-of a tweaked and smart echo, rather than some sort of resonance simulation, but I still prefer the more conservative approach of Kawai in this case.

As I mentioned earlier in my initial post, the damper reso on the Yamaha CLP340 was way exaggerated and artificial (with a significant amount of looping and panning(!). I turned it off after several minutes of playing, it was more disturbing than beneficial for me).

So what do you think (personal preference, your opinion?) about the CN33 Damper Reso output? Reprased: how does it compare to other brands in general?

Any samples/mp3 maybe to have a look at?

Just curious.

Great forum anyway! smile

Kind regards!

/z
_________________________
Yamaha CP33, Roland XP10, Fatar SL610

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#1543783 - 10/26/10 09:01 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
I can only talk from CA63, but CN33 most probably will be similar: I personally think that damper pedal effect is much more important than string resonance effect, although the string resonance effect adds some subtle effects to special playing styles. Both are very well implemented in CA63, but the damper effect is much more audible.

How does it compare to other brands: I don't like the effects on the current Yamaha CLP line, Roland is a different thing, they have very nice effects (due to their impressive SN sound), also very long decays which are more like the decay of a real piano. On the other side I don't like the somewhat processed sound of the Roland, especially you need to be cautious with the amount of e.g. damper resonance effect, otherwise it will sound awful to my ears.
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1543805 - 10/26/10 09:27 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: mucci]
hannibal2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Budapest, Hungary, EU
For the record:

String resonance and Damper resonance explained and demonstrated on a real piano(+ on another brand called GeneralMusic)

http://www.generalmusic.us/Media/DRAKEmodelingtechnologyexplainedVHS.wmv

Anyone posting a Damper Reso example (similar to the one in the video) on CN33 would be highly appreciated.

Cheers

/z
_________________________
Yamaha CP33, Roland XP10, Fatar SL610

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#1543832 - 10/26/10 10:02 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
timmy l. Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/12/10
Posts: 9
Originally Posted By: hannibal2
Hello Mucci

>Interesting that you prefer the CN33 keyboard over the CA63...

Well, I prefer the CA63 but my wife would kill me in a blink of an eye if I would go with the higher end model. smile

Cheers


I had the same problem, but then I said it is for our
children, not just for me!!!

It works everytime! wink

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#1543846 - 10/26/10 10:14 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: timmy l.]
hannibal2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Budapest, Hungary, EU
Hello Timmy l.

Well, sounds like a plan! Would you kindly give my wife a call? grin
_________________________
Yamaha CP33, Roland XP10, Fatar SL610

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#1543847 - 10/26/10 10:14 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Yeah, that also worked for me... Our 9 year old needed a very good keyboard action for learning purposes, so... wink
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1543883 - 10/26/10 10:57 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
hannibal2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Budapest, Hungary, EU
Anyone could help me out with a Damper Resonance CN33 mp3 sample (hitting a single note and a chord for example with and w/o DReso?) please...?
_________________________
Yamaha CP33, Roland XP10, Fatar SL610

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#1543891 - 10/26/10 11:09 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: timmy l.]
Csillag Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/10
Posts: 249
Loc: Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: timmy l.
I had the same problem, but then I said it is for our children, not just for me!!!

It works everytime! wink


This argument does makes sense, but I can already hear my wife replying that the children also need food (besides the music), so I guess I will only get the green light for a CN33 (or a CN23) anyway. frown

But I have stopped worrying; the CN33 is great, too. smile

Csillag

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#1543895 - 10/26/10 11:15 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Yeah, CN33 is a bargain compared to features and keyboard quality!
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1544012 - 10/26/10 01:55 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
Petr Janku Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 2
Hello everyone!

Has anyone tried here the CN 42?
I am searching a new DP to buy and I am deciding between CN42 and CN33.
I don't know which one is better.The CN33 is newer but has worse polyphony and speakers.
I don't want the CA63 because it's so expensive here.
Thank you very much for advice and excuse my English.


Edited by Petr Janku (10/26/10 02:00 PM)

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#1544025 - 10/26/10 02:23 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: Petr Janku]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2380
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Petr Janku
Hello everyone!

Has anyone tried here the CN 42?
I am searching a new DP to buy and I am deciding between CN42 and CN33.
I don't know which one is better.The CN33 is newer but has worse polyphony and speakers.
I don't want the CA63 because it's so expensive here.
Thank you very much for advice and excuse my English.


This might be slightly off the original topic, but I think the CN33 has a newer and better keyboard. However the CN42 has a load more features than the CN33 hence its higher price. Do you need, or will you use all those additional voices and options? Have you played either instrument?

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#1544028 - 10/26/10 02:26 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
hannibal2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Budapest, Hungary, EU
Hello Petr

Not sure about the CN42, but
- as for the polyphony race: CN33 has 96 notes of polyphony which is (considering you have only 88 keys) supposed to be more than enough even when layering sounds and pedalling.

Example: when I took the CN33 to a test-drive have explicitely tested the polyphony limits on the CN33: grand piano 1 + pedal down + striking the lowest note + and then pressing all the other keys on the piano with my palm, sometimes with my forearm. I hit several octaves back and forth + and a bunch of quints multiple times.

Result: I was unable to get the lowest note being "stolen" by the CN33 sound engine.

I wonder if 96 notes polyphony for a 88 keyboard could ever be a bottleneck. Not for me tough smile

As for speakers: I found the CN33 perfect. Even the slightly metallic piano tones (via Sennheiser HD497 headphones) of the CN33 (except studio and mellow ones) were on par with my expectations, with the "metallic" factor back to normal.

So I think neither of these factors are real showstoppers.

Cheers!
_________________________
Yamaha CP33, Roland XP10, Fatar SL610

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#1544107 - 10/26/10 04:24 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Well, as polyphony is concerned, 96 voice polyphony is not necessarily always sufficient. It all depends on how the manufacturer count the voices:

Normally the pianos are stereo, so 96 voices mean 96 mono voices, that's a total of 48 stereo voices. Then there are effects: Pedal down resonances and string resonances, these also eat up some of the voices, but I don't know for sure how many.

Furthermore if you like to create layered sounds then using two stereo pianos you are left with only 24 notes (without any resonance effects).

The CA63 has 192 voices polyphony, and I'm sure they will be eaten up by specific playing styles.

Therefore DPs have specific algorithms to drop those notes first that are not really recognized by the player. That might be the reason why the low very long decay note during your test did sound even after pressing lots of other keys.
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1544826 - 10/27/10 02:56 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: mucci]
bluebilly Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 439
Loc: England
When I first got my CN33 I spent a lot of time trying out the features and applying a critical ear, listening for resonance, reverb, etc., but now I just play the thing, the keyboards feel is as close to any acoustic I've played, that'll do for me until I get a CA-93.

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#1546300 - 10/29/10 03:06 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Did you see, there is a new firmware update?
http://www.kawai.de/downloads_en.htm
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1546328 - 10/29/10 03:38 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hpeterh]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2380
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: hpeterh
Did you see, there is a new firmware update?
http://www.kawai.de/downloads_en.htm


Good find. I wonder what it does?

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#1546330 - 10/29/10 03:41 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: spanishbuddha]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Dont know.
Sometimes I look if there is an update for my CP136, but I am afraid that will not happen, because it is not a current model anymore ;-)

That was how I found it.

Anyway, I have an interesting question:
If I would get an update and test it, and want to undo it, is there a way to do this?
The reason for my question is this: I have a rather complex MIDI setup and use undocumented behaviour of the instrument.
Now it could happen, that a Update would break this and so I could want to undo the update. Is this possible?
Is it possible to backup the firmware before overwriting it?
Maybe Kawai James can answer this?

Peter




Edited by hpeterh (10/29/10 04:05 PM)
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1546396 - 10/29/10 05:04 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: spanishbuddha]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2380
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha

Good find. I wonder what it does?


The installation guide end note translates (via Google) as: Optimizes the dynamic playable at E-piano sounds in the pianissimo range.

Doesn't sound like it fixes the problem raised by hannibal2.

Originally Posted By: hpeterh

Anyway, I have an interesting question:


Good point, there's no undo in the installation guide. Maybe reinstall the original firmware, if it's available.

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#1546488 - 10/29/10 06:59 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9348
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Good morning chaps,

I was not aware of this CN33 software update, but will ask the engineers for more information about the alterations/fixes on Monday.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1546491 - 10/29/10 07:08 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9348
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: hpeterh
If I would get an update and test it, and want to undo it, is there a way to do this?


Rolling back to the previous software version should simply be a case of copying the older software file to USB stick (or floppy disk in the case of your CP136) and following the same update procedure.

hpeterh, may I ask which version of system software is currently running on your CP136?

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1546753 - 10/30/10 05:05 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: Kawai James]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Hi James,

my Version is 1.13.
I believe this is the latest, there is no other version.
I want to add, I have no serious problems with firmware or sound.
The inbuilt sound is as is, and is ok for a piano of this age.
I use softwarepianos and with these the sound is really great, nothing left to wish.
The quality of the sound system is great.

The only problem that I have and that could be easily fixed, is the A-B repeat function for the CD Drive.
The problem is, that the A-B section is deleted, when I press pause.
If the CDROM is used for learning purposes, this is very disturbing.

The "undocumented" MIDI features that I use are these:
I use the inbuilt piano music with my software pianos.
I use the inbuilt MIDI recorder and sequencer with my softwarepianos.

I am very happy that this is possible. There are other competitive pianos that dont allow this.
So I dont want to loose these features.

Best,

Peter


Edited by hpeterh (10/30/10 05:24 AM)
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1546760 - 10/30/10 05:32 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
Iwan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/20/09
Posts: 1
Loc: Norway
Hello Hannibal!
I agree with you about the metallic sounds (just a bit) on the CN33 and less audible on the CA63; it was one of the reasons I went and bought the CA63 instead. For the segment and for the price, the CA63 is absolutely one of the best instruments to own and play at present.
Good luck with your choice any way! Keep us posted!
_________________________
iwanhi

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