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#1543678 - 10/26/10 04:41 AM Kawai CN33
hannibal2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Budapest, Hungary, EU
Hello to All,

I am seriously considering to get a Kawai CN33 this week. Visited the piano store twice last week and played about 1-1.5 hours. The keyboard is awesome, key-off is realistic and the feedback of the keys are soooo realistic, to ma ke it short: this stuff has blown my mind, I'm in love with this piano.

My positive immediate impressions:
-------------------
THe Kawai CN33 is an excellent piece of instrument, greatest keyboard feel ever (tried V-Piano and it's on-par with it for me, although it's different but neither are worse nor better I think. I also tried CA63, it is also excellent, but was a bit "bouncy" I would say, matter of taste again.)

Build quality is great without compromises, finish also is outstanding. Pedals are also rock solid. (unlike Casio PX-800) Keys are stable, ivory rulez. String resonance is realistic, very realistic! Damper resonance simulation is also fine, honestly I was expecting a more articulated effect (even if set to level 10), but yesterday I have tried the Yamaha CLP 340 (afair) with the blue "damper reso on/off) button and to be frank, when I turned on the damper reso effect on the Yamaha it was so artificial and so overemphasized that I think Kawai is more conservative in this respect.

Touch again is class leading! Escapement rulez, ivory is sooo cool! The keyboard is so responsive and so sensitive I was able to get pppp and ffff out easily and the instrument responded to each note like a charm, followed my instructions so nicely like no other I have tried before. (Casio AP200, PX330, PX800, Yamaha YDP 141-161, CLP320, 340, Roland 300GX, HP201) Rolands were too light for me, liked the Yamahas despite being slightly on the heavy side, Casio was ruled out quickly as the keys were loose, pedals were loose also (PX800).

Kawai CN33 is an exceptional instrument (not only because of it's price, but overall) Only some minor questions/observations so far to the audience here:
----------------------------------------
- the piano tone (concert grand 1/2) is a bit metallic, not a burner issue though, and it depends on the actual headphone of course (Sennheiser HD497).
Note: it was perfect via onboard speakers.
Interesting: When compared to CA63, the latter was better (perfect) with no metallic timbre component at all (all on default / reverb off etc, dapmer reso/string reso at their defaults: 5;5)
Is it just me? What do you think?

- String resonance - resonated notes get dropped after a while. (StrReso: keys held, no pedalling) if you press a chord silently like ex. C+E+G and then hit CEG again +1 octave above, it has a very very realistic resonance effect! But if I play another CEG +2 (broken up eg. note by note), those _resonated notes get dropped_ one by one as you play C+2 then E+2 and finally G+2! (CA63 is OK in this respect, no such flaw over there) Why are those beautifully resonated notes get dropped? Is there a separated poliphony limit for resonated notes?

- You cannot press a key at velocity=0; It gives a vel=1 sound either way which is not the way an acoustic piano works. (not a showstopper issue anyway)

Should I contact Kawai regarding the StrReso note-dropping issue and silent note flaw (vel=1) issue? (Note: the latter is reported by the DPBSD project before as well)

Cheers

/z
_________________________
Yamaha CP33, Roland XP10, Fatar SL610

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#1543687 - 10/26/10 05:41 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Interesting that you prefer the CN33 keyboard over the CA63... Maybe this is due to a lighter action. I don't regard the CA63 keyboard as bouncy, in fact it's the least bouncy DP keyboard I've tried so far.

Regarding string resonance dropping notes: That was also an issue on CA63 some time ago, it was fixed with a new firmware release. Maybe the CN33 still has this bug in the current firmware version. On the other side, CA63 has 192 notes polyphony while CN33 only has 96.

Maybe it helps to get to the store a third time during this week and play extensively with all available keyboards (not only CA63 and CN33, but also Roland HP models and Yamaha again), and then decide if your current decision is then still valid. This is because sometimes your taste changes from time to time depending on your current physical and psychological condition...

All the best with your decision!
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1543695 - 10/26/10 06:02 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: mucci]
hannibal2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Budapest, Hungary, EU
Hello Mucci

>Interesting that you prefer the CN33 keyboard over the CA63...

Well, I prefer the CA63 but my wife would kill me in a blink of an eye if I would go with the higher end model. smile

Cheers
_________________________
Yamaha CP33, Roland XP10, Fatar SL610

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#1543701 - 10/26/10 06:11 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Ooops... Okay, I see! wink
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1543709 - 10/26/10 06:33 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: mucci]
hannibal2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Budapest, Hungary, EU
Update: I have contacted Kawai EU with the string reso note drop issue. (germany)

Fingers crossed...!
_________________________
Yamaha CP33, Roland XP10, Fatar SL610

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#1543712 - 10/26/10 06:38 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2434
Loc: UK
Some of the piano voices on the CN33 do have a metallic sound. For certain music I actually like that. There is a quite good mellow piano sound that you can use alone or overlay with the other more metallic piano sounds and adjust the overall tone accordingly. I use two overlaid pianos as my default all the time, either 3-2 or 2-1. It all depends on what you like and what you're playing.

I don't notice the string resonance problem you describe with pedal smile If you're an advanced player and this is an issue for you then spend nearly double the money on a CA63 smile It would be nice if Kawai fixed this but somehow at this price level I suspect they won't.

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#1543728 - 10/26/10 07:15 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: spanishbuddha]
hannibal2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Budapest, Hungary, EU
Hi Spanishbuddha,

The issue happens with no pedalling, just holding a chord and forcing the strings of the chord to resonate by pressing the cord +1 octave above and +2 octave again.

As for the fix: I hope Kawai indeed will fix this issue, not because of the price range but because of the credit of the manufacturer. (I may become a customer for CA63 someday, or a director of a music school... who might want to purchase a dozen DPs in one shot, see..., who knows)

Kawaii customer service has responded already and they are going to double check the issue reported.

So far so good!

cheers
_________________________
Yamaha CP33, Roland XP10, Fatar SL610

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#1543741 - 10/26/10 07:42 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9580
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Sounds good, please keep us updated. wink

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1543744 - 10/26/10 08:00 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
hannibal2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Budapest, Hungary, EU
Hello All

Another question for You guys: How do you rate what do you think about the Damper Resonance effect of the CN33?

(Don't get me wrong, I'm not a geek (despite my job) but my playing style includes popular hit-covers and such which are not necessarily technically challenging but include simple sustained chors (left hand) and a cover for the singer played by the right. These are the sections where a nicely resonating soundboard really shines, and I'm glad that the CN33 has DR effect I just found it a bit conservative. (Reminds me to a bit-of a tweaked and smart echo, rather than some sort of resonance simulation, but I still prefer the more conservative approach of Kawai in this case.

As I mentioned earlier in my initial post, the damper reso on the Yamaha CLP340 was way exaggerated and artificial (with a significant amount of looping and panning(!). I turned it off after several minutes of playing, it was more disturbing than beneficial for me).

So what do you think (personal preference, your opinion?) about the CN33 Damper Reso output? Reprased: how does it compare to other brands in general?

Any samples/mp3 maybe to have a look at?

Just curious.

Great forum anyway! smile

Kind regards!

/z
_________________________
Yamaha CP33, Roland XP10, Fatar SL610

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#1543783 - 10/26/10 09:01 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
I can only talk from CA63, but CN33 most probably will be similar: I personally think that damper pedal effect is much more important than string resonance effect, although the string resonance effect adds some subtle effects to special playing styles. Both are very well implemented in CA63, but the damper effect is much more audible.

How does it compare to other brands: I don't like the effects on the current Yamaha CLP line, Roland is a different thing, they have very nice effects (due to their impressive SN sound), also very long decays which are more like the decay of a real piano. On the other side I don't like the somewhat processed sound of the Roland, especially you need to be cautious with the amount of e.g. damper resonance effect, otherwise it will sound awful to my ears.
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1543805 - 10/26/10 09:27 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: mucci]
hannibal2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Budapest, Hungary, EU
For the record:

String resonance and Damper resonance explained and demonstrated on a real piano(+ on another brand called GeneralMusic)

http://www.generalmusic.us/Media/DRAKEmodelingtechnologyexplainedVHS.wmv

Anyone posting a Damper Reso example (similar to the one in the video) on CN33 would be highly appreciated.

Cheers

/z
_________________________
Yamaha CP33, Roland XP10, Fatar SL610

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#1543832 - 10/26/10 10:02 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
timmy l. Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/12/10
Posts: 9
Originally Posted By: hannibal2
Hello Mucci

>Interesting that you prefer the CN33 keyboard over the CA63...

Well, I prefer the CA63 but my wife would kill me in a blink of an eye if I would go with the higher end model. smile

Cheers


I had the same problem, but then I said it is for our
children, not just for me!!!

It works everytime! wink

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#1543846 - 10/26/10 10:14 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: timmy l.]
hannibal2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Budapest, Hungary, EU
Hello Timmy l.

Well, sounds like a plan! Would you kindly give my wife a call? grin
_________________________
Yamaha CP33, Roland XP10, Fatar SL610

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#1543847 - 10/26/10 10:14 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Yeah, that also worked for me... Our 9 year old needed a very good keyboard action for learning purposes, so... wink
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1543883 - 10/26/10 10:57 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
hannibal2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Budapest, Hungary, EU
Anyone could help me out with a Damper Resonance CN33 mp3 sample (hitting a single note and a chord for example with and w/o DReso?) please...?
_________________________
Yamaha CP33, Roland XP10, Fatar SL610

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#1543891 - 10/26/10 11:09 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: timmy l.]
Csillag Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/10
Posts: 249
Loc: Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: timmy l.
I had the same problem, but then I said it is for our children, not just for me!!!

It works everytime! wink


This argument does makes sense, but I can already hear my wife replying that the children also need food (besides the music), so I guess I will only get the green light for a CN33 (or a CN23) anyway. frown

But I have stopped worrying; the CN33 is great, too. smile

Csillag

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#1543895 - 10/26/10 11:15 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Yeah, CN33 is a bargain compared to features and keyboard quality!
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1544012 - 10/26/10 01:55 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
Petr Janku Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 2
Hello everyone!

Has anyone tried here the CN 42?
I am searching a new DP to buy and I am deciding between CN42 and CN33.
I don't know which one is better.The CN33 is newer but has worse polyphony and speakers.
I don't want the CA63 because it's so expensive here.
Thank you very much for advice and excuse my English.


Edited by Petr Janku (10/26/10 02:00 PM)

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#1544025 - 10/26/10 02:23 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: Petr Janku]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2434
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Petr Janku
Hello everyone!

Has anyone tried here the CN 42?
I am searching a new DP to buy and I am deciding between CN42 and CN33.
I don't know which one is better.The CN33 is newer but has worse polyphony and speakers.
I don't want the CA63 because it's so expensive here.
Thank you very much for advice and excuse my English.


This might be slightly off the original topic, but I think the CN33 has a newer and better keyboard. However the CN42 has a load more features than the CN33 hence its higher price. Do you need, or will you use all those additional voices and options? Have you played either instrument?

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#1544028 - 10/26/10 02:26 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
hannibal2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Budapest, Hungary, EU
Hello Petr

Not sure about the CN42, but
- as for the polyphony race: CN33 has 96 notes of polyphony which is (considering you have only 88 keys) supposed to be more than enough even when layering sounds and pedalling.

Example: when I took the CN33 to a test-drive have explicitely tested the polyphony limits on the CN33: grand piano 1 + pedal down + striking the lowest note + and then pressing all the other keys on the piano with my palm, sometimes with my forearm. I hit several octaves back and forth + and a bunch of quints multiple times.

Result: I was unable to get the lowest note being "stolen" by the CN33 sound engine.

I wonder if 96 notes polyphony for a 88 keyboard could ever be a bottleneck. Not for me tough smile

As for speakers: I found the CN33 perfect. Even the slightly metallic piano tones (via Sennheiser HD497 headphones) of the CN33 (except studio and mellow ones) were on par with my expectations, with the "metallic" factor back to normal.

So I think neither of these factors are real showstoppers.

Cheers!
_________________________
Yamaha CP33, Roland XP10, Fatar SL610

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#1544107 - 10/26/10 04:24 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Well, as polyphony is concerned, 96 voice polyphony is not necessarily always sufficient. It all depends on how the manufacturer count the voices:

Normally the pianos are stereo, so 96 voices mean 96 mono voices, that's a total of 48 stereo voices. Then there are effects: Pedal down resonances and string resonances, these also eat up some of the voices, but I don't know for sure how many.

Furthermore if you like to create layered sounds then using two stereo pianos you are left with only 24 notes (without any resonance effects).

The CA63 has 192 voices polyphony, and I'm sure they will be eaten up by specific playing styles.

Therefore DPs have specific algorithms to drop those notes first that are not really recognized by the player. That might be the reason why the low very long decay note during your test did sound even after pressing lots of other keys.
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1544826 - 10/27/10 02:56 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: mucci]
bluebilly Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 448
Loc: England
When I first got my CN33 I spent a lot of time trying out the features and applying a critical ear, listening for resonance, reverb, etc., but now I just play the thing, the keyboards feel is as close to any acoustic I've played, that'll do for me until I get a CA-93.

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#1546300 - 10/29/10 03:06 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Did you see, there is a new firmware update?
http://www.kawai.de/downloads_en.htm
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1546328 - 10/29/10 03:38 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hpeterh]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2434
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: hpeterh
Did you see, there is a new firmware update?
http://www.kawai.de/downloads_en.htm


Good find. I wonder what it does?

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#1546330 - 10/29/10 03:41 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: spanishbuddha]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Dont know.
Sometimes I look if there is an update for my CP136, but I am afraid that will not happen, because it is not a current model anymore ;-)

That was how I found it.

Anyway, I have an interesting question:
If I would get an update and test it, and want to undo it, is there a way to do this?
The reason for my question is this: I have a rather complex MIDI setup and use undocumented behaviour of the instrument.
Now it could happen, that a Update would break this and so I could want to undo the update. Is this possible?
Is it possible to backup the firmware before overwriting it?
Maybe Kawai James can answer this?

Peter




Edited by hpeterh (10/29/10 04:05 PM)
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1546396 - 10/29/10 05:04 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: spanishbuddha]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2434
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha

Good find. I wonder what it does?


The installation guide end note translates (via Google) as: Optimizes the dynamic playable at E-piano sounds in the pianissimo range.

Doesn't sound like it fixes the problem raised by hannibal2.

Originally Posted By: hpeterh

Anyway, I have an interesting question:


Good point, there's no undo in the installation guide. Maybe reinstall the original firmware, if it's available.

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#1546488 - 10/29/10 06:59 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9580
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Good morning chaps,

I was not aware of this CN33 software update, but will ask the engineers for more information about the alterations/fixes on Monday.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1546491 - 10/29/10 07:08 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9580
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: hpeterh
If I would get an update and test it, and want to undo it, is there a way to do this?


Rolling back to the previous software version should simply be a case of copying the older software file to USB stick (or floppy disk in the case of your CP136) and following the same update procedure.

hpeterh, may I ask which version of system software is currently running on your CP136?

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1546753 - 10/30/10 05:05 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: Kawai James]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Hi James,

my Version is 1.13.
I believe this is the latest, there is no other version.
I want to add, I have no serious problems with firmware or sound.
The inbuilt sound is as is, and is ok for a piano of this age.
I use softwarepianos and with these the sound is really great, nothing left to wish.
The quality of the sound system is great.

The only problem that I have and that could be easily fixed, is the A-B repeat function for the CD Drive.
The problem is, that the A-B section is deleted, when I press pause.
If the CDROM is used for learning purposes, this is very disturbing.

The "undocumented" MIDI features that I use are these:
I use the inbuilt piano music with my software pianos.
I use the inbuilt MIDI recorder and sequencer with my softwarepianos.

I am very happy that this is possible. There are other competitive pianos that dont allow this.
So I dont want to loose these features.

Best,

Peter


Edited by hpeterh (10/30/10 05:24 AM)
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1546760 - 10/30/10 05:32 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
Iwan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/20/09
Posts: 1
Loc: Norway
Hello Hannibal!
I agree with you about the metallic sounds (just a bit) on the CN33 and less audible on the CA63; it was one of the reasons I went and bought the CA63 instead. For the segment and for the price, the CA63 is absolutely one of the best instruments to own and play at present.
Good luck with your choice any way! Keep us posted!
_________________________
iwanhi

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#1547029 - 10/30/10 03:37 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
hannibal2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 100
Loc: Budapest, Hungary, EU
Hello All

Gents, please forgive me but I was unable to stand the templation in the form of a Yamaha CP33 Stage Piano...
I went back to the Kawai store for the third time asking about the deadlines for MP6 and such, then played the CN33 again with my syster who advised to have a look at the yamahas on another store not too far from there. As she is a pro jazz pianist holds a university degree in classical piano and singing, and has a good skills in convincing others smile I said "Well OK, why not? I can still buy the CN33 on Monday as well no problem."

First I was not even interested in the CP33 because on paper it was supposed to be worse and an older model. (64 polyphony and alike)


But then, God! What a piece of rock solid steel! What a fantastic faithful and realistic AP sound! What a keybed (altough CN33 action is also very very cool!)

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1546687/Re:%20Yamaha%20P-155%20or%20the%20CP33?.html#Post1546687

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1547013/Re:%20Yamaha%20P-155%20or%20the%20CP33?.html#Post1547013

Still I will keep an eye on the Kawai world, and wil definitely take the MP6 for a test drive (in the store) just because I think it will be another masterpiece, just as the Yamaha CP33.

Have a good time with your pianos whatever brand it is of!

Cheers and have a nice weekend!

/z
_________________________
Yamaha CP33, Roland XP10, Fatar SL610

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#1547064 - 10/30/10 04:43 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hpeterh]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2434
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: hpeterh

my Version is 1.13.



Very strange, the version listed on my CN33 is also 1.13! According to the download site this does not exist (for the CN33).

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#1547520 - 10/31/10 08:54 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
Ovidiu M Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 196
Loc: Romania
Hi! I have one simple question. In the 36 sounds of CN33 is it included the classical guitar sound? Im an ex guitarist and i would like to have it. Thank you!

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#1547730 - 10/31/10 03:31 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: Ovidiu M]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2434
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Ovidiu M
Hi! I have one simple question. In the 36 sounds of CN33 is it included the classical guitar sound? Im an ex guitarist and i would like to have it. Thank you!


No.

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#1547734 - 10/31/10 03:38 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: spanishbuddha]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha
Originally Posted By: hpeterh

my Version is 1.13.



Very strange, the version listed on my CN33 is also 1.13! According to the download site this does not exist (for the CN33).


Only the updates are online, but not the first release.
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#1554567 - 11/09/10 08:18 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
Kaldanis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/20/10
Posts: 20
Loc: Scotland, UK
Sorry to bring back an older topic. I originally considered a Yamaha P155 but a few of the reviews put me off, so I began looking for other options. After reading around a bit the CN33 seems perfect in terms of features/quality/looks. (I was a bit put off by how the P155 looked). I'm going to try a second hand one tomorrow to see how it sounds, but I don't think it has all the original books etc. So I was hoping some people who owns it could answer these questions for me!

1. Is the String Resonance issue a real problem in all CN33s? I'm a complete beginner, so when I see it tomorrow I'm not even sure how to test for something like that or even know when I hear it.

2. I've read it has a few practice songs on it, does it come with a book of how to play the pre-programmed songs like other digital pianos? (such as the Casios and Yamahas i've looked at). I realise this isn't a huge problem if it doesn't, but it would be helpful for someone just starting out like me. smile

3. Are there any other probelms you've experienced with it that are big issues? Do you still recommend it?

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#1554808 - 11/10/10 09:33 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: Kawai James]
bluebilly Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 448
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Good morning chaps,

I was not aware of this CN33 software update, but will ask the engineers for more information about the alterations/fixes on Monday.

Cheers,
James
x

Hi James, Did you ever get an answer from the Kawai engineers?
-

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#1554841 - 11/10/10 10:17 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: Kaldanis]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9580
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Hello Kaldanis,

With regards to your queries:

1. The String Resonance issue reported above has been confirmed by my engineering colleagues. I gather that a software update fix has already been prepared and is currently in beta testing.

2. Notated scores for the built-in lessons are not included with Kawai instruments. However, these are popular, standard materials that can be purchased from most music shops without too much difficulty.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1554845 - 11/10/10 10:21 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: bluebilly]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9580
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
bluebilly, I did indeed check with the engineering chaps, and recall that the update resolves three issues. Unfortunately I cannot clearly remember what they were (!). I'll have to re-check my emails at the office tomorrow (actually today now...)

As noted above however, the String Resonance issue reported above has been resolved internally, and I expect a software update will be made publicly available in the not too distant future. wink

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1554900 - 11/10/10 12:08 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: Kawai James]
Kaldanis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/20/10
Posts: 20
Loc: Scotland, UK
Thank you for the reply James. I didn't realise the software could be updated on the piano! That clears up most of my doubts.

Today, I got the chance to play the CN33 at a local piano dealer. He let me compare it to the other digital pianos and one acoustic in the room. For sound, the CN33 was only beaten by a Roland digital grand piano which cost about 8 times the amount of the CN33. I really love the Kawai! Even though I have no experience, I compared the key actions and I really couldn't feel any difference between the CN33 and the really expensive Roland. I also love how it looks, so I'll most likely be buying it. smile

The acoustic in the room was an expensive Steinway. It was better than all the digitals but it didn't seem like a fair comparison!

The only problem I noticed was that one of the keys made a 'clicking' noise when released, but it's probably just that display model.

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#1554928 - 11/10/10 01:14 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: Kaldanis]
spanishbuddha Offline
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Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2434
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Kaldanis

The only problem I noticed was that one of the keys made a 'clicking' noise when released, but it's probably just that display model.


None of the keys on my CN33 make a clicking noise.

The song list is here.

I did notice that when I connect a laptop's audio out to the line in, in order to merge a software piano sound with the CN33 internal sounds, there is a hum. Someone mentioned a Behringer hum destroyer as the solution. In the end I no longer do this anyway, as much like the CA63 settings thread I found a really good sound by overlaying proportions of two different internal piano sounds.

I don't have any other issues with my CN33.


Edited by spanishbuddha (11/10/10 01:15 PM)

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#1554962 - 11/10/10 02:26 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: spanishbuddha]
Upright Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/15/10
Posts: 132
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha
None of the keys on my CN33 make a clicking noise.

I have also no clicking noise on our CN33.

Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha
I did notice that when I connect a laptop's audio out to the line in, in order to merge a software piano sound with the CN33 internal sounds, there is a hum. Someone mentioned a Behringer hum destroyer as the solution.

Probably that was me. I bought and mentioned a Behringer hum destroyer as solution to that problem.

Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha
In the end I no longer do this anyway,

Same here. I stopped using software pianos completely. To much hassle for no real improvement. And the touch with the internal sound is still the best. I don't like the lag of software pianos.

Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha
as much like the CA63 settings thread I found a really good sound by overlaying proportions of two different internal piano sounds.

Can you tell us, what pianos are you overlaying and how is your slider setting? I usually use either Concert Grand 1 or Mellow Grand 1 alone.

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#1554973 - 11/10/10 02:45 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
spanishbuddha Offline
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Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2434
Loc: UK
Hi Mawima

Following mucci's lead on the CA63 I played around with Pianoteq. I don't like the sound of Pianoteq alone - any of the 4 groups of pianos, but I was able to get a sound I liked from K1 close mic (AFAIR) with some modified hammer, eq, velocity, others, mixed on top of the CN33 Mellow Grand 1. I didn't have a problem with delay but set the buffer setting quite low, and have a decent laptop. I ended up with a sound I quite liked, but also especially the extra resonances it provided.

I was about to purchase a hum destroyer, but experimented a bit more with using the CN33 internal sounds overlay. One sound that was similar to the Pianoteq overlay was Mellow Grand1, Concert Grand 2, (3-1) about 70-30%. It doesn't beat the Pianoteq resonances though. Of course your taste will be different from mine and I'm sure your tone discrimination is better.

As you say the software piano is too much hassle for not so much improvement, except the resonances. I could also get better pp control, but I was cheating with the velocity adjustment on Pianoteq, and am improving that area of my playing as I learn.

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#1555371 - 11/11/10 03:49 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
theJourney Offline
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Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned

What's a hum destroyer?

Did your elimination of the ho hum sound on the CN33 through use of pianoteq precipitate your need for this hum destroyer?

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#1555373 - 11/11/10 03:57 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: theJourney]
hpeterh Offline
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Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: theJourney

What's a hum destroyer?


There is no such thing as a device that can destroy hum without modifying the sound.

"Hum destroyer" is Behringers marketing blurb.

Technically it is an isolation transformer and it does not destroy hum, it prevents hum.

Bad advertising but good and affordable product....

Peter
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#1555380 - 11/11/10 04:35 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
mucci Offline
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Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Here is a picture of a real cheap one from Amazon ($5.99):




http://www.amazon.com/GSI-GGLI2-Ground-L...8032&sr=1-9

I also have a similar one for my Netbook connection to the DP, and it eliminates any hum very efficently!
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1555387 - 11/11/10 04:56 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: theJourney]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9580
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: theJourney
...ho hum sound on the CN33...


Please stop trolling.
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1555391 - 11/11/10 05:17 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: Kawai James]
theJourney Offline
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Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: theJourney
...ho hum sound on the CN33...


Please stop trolling.


I am confused by your continuous personal attacks.
It would be better if we all stuck to the actual content and topic of the posts rather than trying to re-direct discussion to the posters themselves.

Did you bother to read the actual post contained in this thread where a CN33 owner is experimenting with external software in search of improvement of the onboard sound of their dp?

Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha
Hi Mawima

Following mucci's lead on the CA63 I played around with Pianoteq...I was able to get a sound I liked from K1 close mic (AFAIR) with some modified hammer, eq, velocity, others, mixed on top of the CN33 Mellow Grand 1. I didn't have a problem with delay but set the buffer setting quite low, and have a decent laptop. I ended up with a sound I quite liked, but also especially the extra resonances it provided.

I was about to purchase a hum destroyer, but experimented a bit more with using the CN33 internal sounds overlay. One sound that was similar to the Pianoteq overlay was Mellow Grand1, Concert Grand 2, (3-1) about 70-30%. It doesn't beat the Pianoteq resonances though. Of course your taste will be different from mine and I'm sure your tone discrimination is better.

As you say the software piano is too much hassle for not so much improvement, except the resonances. I could also get better pp control, but I was cheating with the velocity adjustment on Pianoteq, and am improving that area of my playing as I learn.


Many of us want to buy a digital piano that acts like as close as possible to an actual piano out of the box including the ability to play pp and with an expressive, organic and realistic sound -- without having to resort to complicated hacks of layering other sounds whether internally or through an external PC with piano modeling software.

I cannot think of another reason for wanting to do so rather than to listen to what some groups of owners are saying: that they find that their standard onboard sounds are lacking or do not provide the level of inspiration that they are seeking.

However, without resorting to attacking others because of their judgments, it should be possible for anyone here to make their own judgment of why the owners of some digital pianos seem to be obsessed with supplanting the sound of their (brand new) digital pianos while others see (hear) no need to do so.

Quote:
Definition
ho hum: lacking interest or inspiration; mediocre




Edited by theJourney (11/11/10 05:18 AM)

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#1555393 - 11/11/10 05:33 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9580
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
theJourney, I'm not attacking you personally - I don't even know you for goodness sake.

I'm simply asking you to stop your trolling behaviour. By this I am referring to your constant efforts to undermine Kawai instruments.

Thank you.

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1555399 - 11/11/10 05:50 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: theJourney]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: theJourney
...ho hum sound on the CN33...


Please stop trolling.


I am confused by your continuous personal attacks.
It would be better if we all stuck to the actual content and topic of the posts rather than trying to re-direct discussion to the posters themselves.


Maybe that's because you act like a troll? There are more than just James with that impression. Have you read the definition of trolling at Wikipedia?

I already mentioned, I love to exchange experiences with people on this forum, and this is what I really love about this great forum. If only everyone would rather be constructive and not (I have to repeat this) bash a special DP brand for whatever reason. And yes, that includes drawing unjustified consequences from selected posts and sell it to us as common agreements or even facts. You do this even with my posts. I would rather like to draw my own conclusions than you misinterpreting my comments.
If YOU don't like the sound of a specific DP that's fine, but please respect the individual experiences of many piano players here on this forum with their DPs they really own and use everyday!
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1555404 - 11/11/10 06:08 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: Kawai James]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
theJourney, I'm not attacking you personally - I don't even know you for goodness sake.

I'm simply asking you to stop your trolling behaviour. By this I am referring to your constant efforts to undermine Kawai instruments.

Thank you.

James
x

You don't have to know someone personally to engage in personal attack behavior on a forum.

It is not my intention to undermine Kawai instruments, there is quite enough of that going on by the multiple posts from Kawai owners who consistently come across as less than satisfied and obsessively in search of an acceptable sound from their instruments but whom when made aware of their own behavior by others change their tune and resort to attempting to censure others and call them names.

If there were umpteen posts from Williams, or Roland or Yamaha owners fretting about the guitar tones, or puzzling over their piano tones or looking for anti hum devices to mask their ho hum sound workarounds, they would be fair game for discussion and witty syllogisms by others as well.

I wonder if the Kawai Kult here realizes the kind of disservice they are doing to the brand? I am not part of the Kult, but Kawai remains my preferred brand that I support with tough love and factual discussions rather than the demonstrations we witness from some others here of distress, denial and duress?

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#1555413 - 11/11/10 06:45 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: theJourney]
mucci Offline
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Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: theJourney
It is not my intention to undermine Kawai instruments, there is quite enough of that going on by the multiple posts from Kawai owners who consistently come across as less than satisfied and obsessively in search of an acceptable sound from their instruments


That's your very own interpretation of what you read (based on your own strong opinion).

You could also interpret it in a completely different way (though I would not dare to declare this as the right interpretation - who am I?): Maybe Kawai buyers are very critical and want the highest possible keyboard touch and sound quality (while others are less ambitious so that Yamaha, Roland and Casio are just fine), and that's the reason why they chose a Kawai? They are very enthusiastic about their DP, and in an effort to get even better quality they investigate some effort in additional sound variations? I would by no means suggest that this is the right way to interpret, but it sounds similarly biased to what you state.

Originally Posted By: theJourney

or looking for anti hum devices to mask their ho hum sound


You know what you're talking about? That's a problem of the external audio device, not of the DP...

Originally Posted By: theJourney

I wonder if the Kawai Kult here


Hey, now we're even worshipping a Kawai cult? Is that the way you denigrate others who criticize you? Sounds like a former Amiga vs. Atari or (today) Apple vs. Pc war... I think we should be detached enough to keep those ridiculous accusations away from this forum.

And a last statement: If you don't like Kawai then just say it. It's ridiculous to start your posts always with "It is not my intention to undermine Kawai instruments..." when after that you start with an uncontrolled attack against Kawai. That keeps you noncredible.
_________________________
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#1555418 - 11/11/10 07:02 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9580
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Bring it on!



James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1555423 - 11/11/10 07:13 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
mucci Offline
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Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Hehe, James!! The only true music computer with build in MIDI controller!! wink

_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1555632 - 11/11/10 01:17 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
spanishbuddha Offline
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Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2434
Loc: UK
In response to theJourney's posts (thanks for the interest theJourney) on my and others actions, I accept the sounds of the CN33 for the amount of money I paid for the instrument. I've previously stated I think it represents extraordinary value for its price. I was looking to see if for a further $100 investment in Pianoteq I could get that next leap or step up. I couldn't.

If I really wanted the best sound I would of course get a Grand acoustic but I really can't afford that. In fact at the time of my purchase I decided I could not afford a Roland HP307 or Kawai CA63 which are the next step in the sound and action from current DP's, IMHO.

So like so many other things in life there's a practical compromise for many of us.

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#1555763 - 11/11/10 04:57 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: spanishbuddha]
bluebilly Offline
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Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 448
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha

So like so many other things in life there's a practical compromise for many of us.


+1

-

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#1557521 - 11/14/10 12:53 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: Kawai James]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2434
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
bluebilly, I did indeed check with the engineering chaps, and recall that the update resolves three issues. Unfortunately I cannot clearly remember what they were (!). I'll have to re-check my emails at the office tomorrow (actually today now...)

As noted above however, the String Resonance issue reported above has been resolved internally, and I expect a software update will be made publicly available in the not too distant future. wink

Cheers,
James
x


Bump for KawaiJames as he arrives to work Monday in Tokyo smile

What your devoted fans would like to know is what's in the recent firmware update for the CN33 and when we can expect the latest string resonance improvement. Thank you.


Edited by spanishbuddha (11/14/10 01:53 PM)

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#1558015 - 11/15/10 01:37 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9580
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Thank you, however I work in Hamamatsu, not Tokyo. wink

Regarding the software update, I have recommended that it be made public available as soon as internal testing has been complete.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1560037 - 11/18/10 07:35 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9580
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Hello chaps,

Just a quick one to let you know that Kawai Europe have made the CN33 v1.21 software update available for public download.

http://kawai.de/downloads_en.htm

I hope it was worth the wait. wink

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1560040 - 11/18/10 07:40 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
Upright Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/15/10
Posts: 132
Loc: Germany
Thank you, James, for the notification.

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#1560044 - 11/18/10 07:49 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
Kawai James Online   content
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Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9580
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
No problem.

Full credit to hannibal2 for reporting the String Resonance issue in the first place.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1560047 - 11/18/10 07:55 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: Kawai James]
Upright Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/15/10
Posts: 132
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
No problem.

Full credit to hannibal2 for reporting the String Resonance issue in the first place.

Cheers,
James
x

I am going to test the new firmware today. I did not experience the problem with the String Resonance in my play as the pieces I play are still quite simple. But out of curiosity I tested the issue after hannibal2's post. The issue was discernible and I am curious, if the new firmware will change something. smile

So the CN33 is great anyway. But it is great to see Kawai fixing issues even if they are small and hardly discernible.


Edited by Mawima (11/18/10 08:12 AM)

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#1560067 - 11/18/10 08:31 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2434
Loc: UK
Thanks James! Will install it at the weekend.

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#1560298 - 11/18/10 04:36 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: spanishbuddha]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2434
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha
Thanks James! Will install it at the weekend.


Got home earlier than expected and installed the 1.21 firmware. It does indeed fix the string resonance shortcoming.

Thanks Kawai and hannibal2. I was initially sceptical about Kawai fixing this as it seems quite a minor imperfection, but then I'm still 'ear training' as part of the learn piano process.

BTW I think there's a small mistake in the readme for installation. The picture is correct for selecting boot/load from USB (piano2, organ, harps&mallets) but the description then is not.

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#1560310 - 11/18/10 05:01 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9580
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Hello spanishbuddha,

Glad to hear that the update was successful and resolved the String Resonance glitch.

Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha
BTW I think there's a small mistake in the readme for installation. The picture is correct for selecting boot/load from USB (piano2, organ, harps&mallets) but the description then is not.


Do you mean the 'Checking the software version' part? If so, yes, I see that the illustration and explanation are inconsistent. I didn't prepare these update instructions, so will have to double check with the R&D chaps and perhaps send a revised instructions PDF to Europe.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1560316 - 11/18/10 05:06 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: Kawai James]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2434
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Kawai James

Do you mean the 'Checking the software version' part? If so, yes, I see that the illustration and explanation are inconsistent. I didn't prepare these update instructions, so will have to double check with the R&D chaps and perhaps send a revised instructions PDF to Europe.

Cheers,
James
x


Yes, that's the part I meant to say, sorry. Follow the pic and not the words.

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#1561365 - 11/20/10 05:27 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: spanishbuddha]
bluebilly Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 448
Loc: England
-
I must confess I haven't noticed, or tried to notice, the resonance problem talked about so I'm reluctant to tamper with my piano software on the basis of..."if it ain't broke don't fix it". Anyway, I visited a piano store today and again played, Casio PX-330, Casio PX-730, Casio PX-830, Casio AP220, Casio AP440, Korg SP170, Roland HP-302, Roland FP7, Yamaha CLP 330, Yamaha CLP 340, the result, I can confirm that us Kawai CN-33 owners made the right choice of piano.
-

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#1561610 - 11/21/10 06:20 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: bluebilly]
bluebilly Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 448
Loc: England
-
Contrary to my previous post, I took a deep breath, steeled myself, said short prayer and proceeded to update my piano software.....1.21 update installed sucessfully...now wiping sweat from my brow and pouring a stiff Scotch on the Rocks.

Thanks James.
-

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#1561615 - 11/21/10 06:38 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: bluebilly]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2434
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: bluebilly
-
Contrary to my previous post, I took a deep breath, steeled myself, said short prayer and proceeded to update my piano software.....1.21 update installed sucessfully...now wiping sweat from my brow and pouring a stiff Scotch on the Rocks.

Thanks James.
-


Do you notice the difference in your playing? I don't. My playing is not at an advanced level, err, yet.

But I notice the difference if I test for it though.


Edited by spanishbuddha (11/21/10 06:48 AM)

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#1562117 - 11/22/10 01:44 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: spanishbuddha]
bluebilly Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 448
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha
Originally Posted By: bluebilly
-
Contrary to my previous post, I took a deep breath, steeled myself, said short prayer and proceeded to update my piano software.....1.21 update installed sucessfully...now wiping sweat from my brow and pouring a stiff Scotch on the Rocks.

Thanks James.
-


Do you notice the difference in your playing? I don't. My playing is not at an advanced level, err, yet.

But I notice the difference if I test for it though.

I haven't noticed any difference yet, but I'll spend some time listening today. The piano always sounded good to me.
-

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#1562869 - 11/23/10 10:51 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: bluebilly]
cunparis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/25/09
Posts: 104
Loc: Paris, France
Originally Posted By: bluebilly
-
Anyway, I visited a piano store today and again played, Casio PX-330, Casio PX-730, Casio PX-830, Casio AP220, Casio AP440, Korg SP170, Roland HP-302, Roland FP7, Yamaha CLP 330, Yamaha CLP 340, the result, I can confirm that us Kawai CN-33 owners made the right choice of piano.
-


I'm currently debating between the CN-33 & Yamaha CLP-340. Since you mention the 340, would you mind giving me a comparison of the two and why you feel the CN-33 is better?

I tried both in the store today for about 1 hour and I think the CN-33 has better action. There seems to be more resistance going down and less bounce on the way up. The yamaha keys seemed to thump up & down. I'm a beginner but been playing on a real piano for 6 months now so I don't really have any frame of reference for digital pianos.

I also felt the CN-33 sounded more like a real piano on the headphones. I took my sony studio monitors so they're decent headphones.

There are only two things I didn't like when playing the CN-33 and I didn't notice these with the Yamaha:

The attack sounds pretty sharp (hard). A bit aggressive. I'm not sure how else to describe it. I tried the variations but they seemed similar. I hope you know what I am talking about.

The second issue I had playing the CN-33 was that I found it hard to play medium volume. I try to play softly and often one note would come out way too strong. Is that due to me? Sometimes my left hand would play louder than my right, unintentionally. I didn't notice this playing the yamaha. And I stayed longer to investigate this issue.

These two are my only reservations about the CN-33. If it's just me and will take some getting used to then I'd like to get the CN-33.

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#1562880 - 11/23/10 11:11 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: cunparis]
AndyT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/31/09
Posts: 120
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Originally Posted By: cunparis

The second issue I had playing the CN-33 was that I found it hard to play medium volume. I try to play softly and often one note would come out way too strong. Is that due to me? Sometimes my left hand would play louder than my right, unintentionally. I didn't notice this playing the yamaha. And I stayed longer to investigate this issue.


Did you try changing the touch sensitivity to heavy? I know a lot of people change this setting and find it to be an improvement on the CA63/93.

Personally, I'm not sure of the difference between turning down the volume and changing the touch sensitivity, but that might just be me.

Andy


Edited by AndyT (11/23/10 11:14 AM)

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#1562883 - 11/23/10 11:17 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: cunparis]
Upright Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/15/10
Posts: 132
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: cunparis

I also felt the CN-33 sounded more like a real piano on the headphones. I took my sony studio monitors so they're decent headphones.

There are only two things I didn't like when playing the CN-33 and I didn't notice these with the Yamaha:

The attack sounds pretty sharp (hard). A bit aggressive. I'm not sure how else to describe it. I tried the variations but they seemed similar. I hope you know what I am talking about.

The second issue I had playing the CN-33 was that I found it hard to play medium volume. I try to play softly and often one note would come out way too strong. Is that due to me? Sometimes my left hand would play louder than my right, unintentionally. I didn't notice this playing the yamaha. And I stayed longer to investigate this issue.

When we bought our CN33, we also compared it to the CLP-340. I agree with you on the general sound signature. For my taste, the CN33 sounds more like a real piano. But yes, the attack of the Grand Piano 1 is pretty sharp. Some describe it as metallic here in the forum. Some get used to it, others use the Mellow Piano 1 which barely has this metallic attack sound. If you don't like the Mellow Piano and really cannot stand the Concert Grand 1 as it is, you should check the CA63. There you would be able to tweak the sound with the virtual technician.

The second "issue" with the volume is something I suppose you will get used to. The CN33 enables you to play in a wide dynamic range. Your hands need to get accustomed to handle this.

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#1563046 - 11/23/10 05:34 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2434
Loc: UK
I have a CN33 and initially changed the touch velocity setting to heavy1. There are five settings: light2, light1, normal, heavy1, heavy2. After a few weeks I changed it back to normal because I suppose I had become used to the touch. I also play with the volume setting quite high, but don't play loudly, so that in this f or ff is just that, loud. In this way I can practise the range of the CN33 dynamics. I'm a beginner of just about one year so my experience of this may not be ideal to guide you.

Regarding the sound, I prefer an overlay of the mellow piano with one of the other more metallic grand pianos. Most of the time. Sometimes I like that sharp metallic sound depending on the music and my mood. ..and sometimes I just like that soft mellow piano.

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#1564960 - 11/27/10 03:51 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: hannibal2]
cunparis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/25/09
Posts: 104
Loc: Paris, France
Seems the enthusiasm for the Kawai has died down. I hope that people are still happy with their choice.

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#1564972 - 11/27/10 04:52 AM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: cunparis]
Upright Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/15/10
Posts: 132
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: cunparis
Seems the enthusiasm for the Kawai has died down. I hope that people are still happy with their choice.

We are very happy with our choice. I rather think, that people are simply playing piano.

Have you already decided and bought the CN33 or the CLP 340?

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#1565262 - 11/27/10 02:39 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: cunparis]
FogVilleLad Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 4680
Loc: San Francisco
Originally Posted By: cunparis
I tried both [CN33 & CLP340] in the store today for about 1 hour and I think the CN-33 has better action. There seems to be more resistance going down and less bounce on the way up. The yamaha keys seemed to thump up & down.
GH3: bouncier, harder at the extremes. Another poster who plays at a fairly high level and with whom I was PM'ing a few years ago during his auditioning of DP's - he chose a CLP280 - said the same thing. Others have posted about the bouncing of the GH3 and Roland's 3-sensor actions. The quieter and perhaps more natural feel of the RH action is characteristic of Kawai actions, according to posters.

IMO action is the most important consideration, because it can't be changed. You can change tone by using a software piano. As spanishbuddha's post shows, you can take the edge off the CN33's attack by layering it with the Mellow grand. Buddha also posted that the relative volume of the layered pianos can be chosen. He's taking advantage of the custom settings in TADutchman's thread for CA63/93 users. (The 33 doesn't have as many voices and, I think, the Virtual Technician feature in the 63/93 offers greater possiblities for customizing.) Worth looking at TAD's thread.

Ultimately no recorded piano will have all the richness and complexity of an acoustic; not the internal samples or software pianos. Galaxy II's Vienna Grand is my daily player. I like it very much - especially thru Sennheiser's HD650 'phones - but am always aware that I'm playing a recorded piano.

IMO if you must choose between tone and touch, go with touch.


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#1565299 - 11/27/10 03:27 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: cunparis]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2434
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: cunparis
Seems the enthusiasm for the Kawai has died down. I hope that people are still happy with their choice.



Yup, it's a great DP for the money, probably the best IMHO. Had it since early August and playing more than ever. I was (still am) a fan of the budget Casio PX330, but really the Casio seems like a toy compared to the Kawai, but then it costs quite a bit less.

What's your budget and where have you got to in your buying process? We can help if you have further questions about the CN33 but you have to decide what's best for you (of course).

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#1571406 - 12/06/10 03:56 PM Re: Kawai CN33 [Re: spanishbuddha]
cunparis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/25/09
Posts: 104
Loc: Paris, France
Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha

What's your budget and where have you got to in your buying process? We can help if you have further questions about the CN33 but you have to decide what's best for you (of course).


I've got it narrowed down to the CN-33. Just have to decide if I want to buy locally or order it from Thomann. Leaning towards the latter to get the included bench and not have to mess with driving to the store (about 1 hour drive).

I've played it 3 different times and I really like it. I think I was just comparing it to the acoustic I play and it'll never be the same. But after a few days I'm sure I'll be used to the CN-33.

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