I would bet that all of the APs and EPs in the "Tone List" are SN.

The "Live Set List" is just layered presets from the "Tone List" correct?

It doesn't seem like there is anything keeping the NX from layering up to 4 pianos - like a turbocharged version of what's going on over the Kawai custom settings thread.

Yeah, I'm kind of glad the SRX slot is gone, otherwise I might have been tempted to fork over serious bux for 32-64MB of 10 year old samples.

IMO the SN AP card is the only reason for SRX expansion in the GX.

This morning after I had done various scale work, ii-V-I exersices, I decided to play some classical for technique, was playing Rondo alla Turca presto and there were a few notes my GXF was unable to respond to. I wonder if the PHA III action would assist in playing fast tempos. I've often heard the PHA III's 3rd sensor helps in playing repetitive notes quickly, so I'll be anxious to see how that pans out on the NX.

Actually, the "Complete Orchestra SRX-06" isn't bad. Not Kurzweil quality but I've built some nice orchestral composite sounds with it. I've left it in my GX after adding the SN card, but the SRX07 Complete Keys will go to the Bay, I think.

And maybe what might have offered owners of the NX a future SN2 upgrade??

I'm inclined to believe that Roland doesn't have an SN2 in the pipeline. SN is it for a while, and that's perfectly fine with me. The RD-700NX with PHA III Ivory Feel and SN sound engine is going to be holding its own for a while. I'm hoping Roland releases an RD-800 series...of course what could be improved upon the SN sound engine and PHA III action anytime soon?

Sure. Those 300 and 700 numbers are old..

The NX is all your going to get from Roland for quite some time ...

I would like to hope that lack of expansion board will be compensated with software SN upgrade, as Clavia does!



.... just a dream!

Keep on dreaming ...(they rather sell you a brand new RD700ZX with SN2 engine and PHAIII+ ; software upgrades are free so not interesting to the manufacturer).

For the moment, V-Piano upgrade ("evolution") is not a dream... it's real

Yes, but the V-Piano is not comparable to the rest of the range of products. I don't think they made it to get rich on selling lots of them, but more as a technological statement of what's possible at this time and as a model to use for further product development. Technology then trickles down to the mass products, like the SN implementation did. In other words - V-piano is what OASYS was for Korg; sort of a development platform and advertising model. They don't have to earn their income by this particular product, so getting the software updates to these instruments is not being blocked by marketing decisions as with the 'regular' instrument range.

I doubt the Roland anticipated the VPiano being as dismal of a market failure as it has been.
Certainly they expected to sell more than they have.
I expect that Yamaha also built the Avantgrand to sell and from what I can tell, although heavily discounted, they are selling.
The same store models of the VPianos are still languishing in shops and 4/4 that I have asked point blank have admitted to having sold a grand total of: ZERO.

No doubt the reception the V piano got was disappointing for Roland however I wouldn't expect them to abandon to concept but rather it will be developed further.

Is there a way to merge whatever magic they do with SN-tech with the non-sampling modeling-on-the-fly voodoo of the V-Piano (Light)? If so, that's probably what the RD-something-other-than-700 will become, or be based upon.

They could take the models of the SN palette, and give the ability to tweak the individual elements of what makes it. Make it lighter, of course, and cheaper (than the V-Piano), though it'll probably stay in the 2500-3000 US range.

And move or remove that danged mod stick!

so is the new GX upgrade (or cheating by roland) comparable to yamaha piano sounds and up to that level??? e.g. to CP-5 ????

Funnily enough, after holding fire for some time I finally sprang for an SN card to (F) my GX. Disclosure: I also own a CP5.

Good news: The responsiveness of the SN voices is much better than the original APs. You can now play almost as quietly on the Roland as you can on the CP action.

Bad news: The SN voices sound bland and characterless to me. Worse, there is a nasty metallic edge which exhibits itself when these voices are pushed. Also, the velocity response appears uneven and these metallic "pings" can appear all to easily in runs.

To be honest, I thought this might be the upgrade which would decide me to sell the CP5, as I prefer the slightly heavier action on the Roland, as well as the escapement simulation. In fact, if anything, it may have turned my thoughts the other way...

Aidan -

This metallic twang that occurs at too low a velocity in a couple of clusters of notes in the mid-range...SN Grand Piano 4 exhibits this behaviour less than the others and to reduce it I increased the key touch offset to medium + 5-8 ish...just short of heavy - values. This is a decent compromise in my opinion. But I agree it is a characteristic of the SN pianos. What the SN does have, and what is totally unmatched by the others, is a natural, organic sounding decay...no other hardware DP even comes close in this respect. I also think that piano players will feel more connected to the RD's graded action with escapement more than the much lighter CP1/5 non-graded. On a personal level, this wouldn't matter to me but then I don't call myself a piano player...maybe one day!

Steve

another words you're not sure if it's worth the money. Those BAD news are rather very bad to me...characterless? After few disappointments from roland I just don't believe anymore they did it right while they should do it right in the first place, with GX .

Steve, yeah I knew there'd been quite a bit of praise around SN4 so I went there almost immediately but to these ears, it sounded too much like a rock voicing for cutting through bands on stage. Not a tone I'd use for the jazz/new age stuff which is my principle territory. It reminded me of a very aggressively-voiced Steinway D I came across about 18 months ago - it was potentially a dream of an instrument but it took the top of your head off every time you got about mf.

I did find myself going for heavier response curves than I generally used on the non-SN voices before which certainly helped.

As for the CP5, I was very sceptical about its lack of grading until I tried one in the flesh, as it were. As a regular practice instrument, the relative lightness of the keys may have implications (hence my recent thread on the subject here) but as a control surface (and speaking as a classically-trained pianist), I still find it's about the most expressive DP I've played to date.

@Aiden; could it be a mismatch between the GX keybed (PHA-II) and the SN sound engine.

In other words ; could it be that instruments that are factory loaded with the SN implementation, like the Rd700NX and Fp7F, have a more natural match between the keys you play and the sound you produce and without the twang that you so easily reproduce on the GX board with SN expansion ? The GX was made in pre-SN times after al; and maybe (just maybe) the way you play SN on the new instruments doesn't produce the artifacts you mentioned. As a potential FP7F buyer - if it's not Kawai - I would also be interested if that is the case...

what??? GX was not made before SN, in fact it came with SN piano and EP. NX is nothing else like factory made update which user csn do to GX at home.

JFP, I think the only answer to that is "wait and see". But the card was really designed with the GX primarily in mind (probably less so the SX), so it's strange that this hasn't been thought out.

I've ramped up the touch response, as Steve suggested, but on SN01. This seems to have brought it under control somewhat. Maybe I need a few more days to get used to the slightly more aggressive sound.

BTW, Steve, have you noticed that the SN voices seem to have noticeably less gain on them than the on-board ones?

OK, I just did an extremely rough and ready recording of the first four SN piano voices. In the first I'm trying to demonstrate how that metallic edge suddenly appears. Apologies for the pisspoor playing.

Supernatural Pianos Test

Aidan, your playing is not pisspoor!

I can hear it (slightly too prominent metallic sound on certain notes) because I'm tuned into the sound you are describing. I suspect many others would not really identify any particular issues at all. In living with these instruments we become hyper-sensitive to their little foibles I suppose.

I think that SN Piano 1 is too bright and although it is probably the most characterful SN piano on the GX(F) I hear textures that I just don't like very much. I disagree about SN 4 being a rock piano...to my ears it is the most mellow (marginally more so than SN 2) of the SN pianos. I think it is a beautifully balanced piano but I don't play jazz and your requirements might be very different. Jazz players often seem to like Yamaha.

When you say the SN pianos lack gain...do you mean dynamic range, ie, difference between softest and loudest? This is not an issue I have noticed.

JFP makes a sensible remark about the matching of keys to tone generator but my HP-307 also exhibited similar traits, perhaps slightly less so but there nonetheless. I've just sold the HP and for a few minutes I left the buyers to play with it whilst I sat in another room. I have to say the Roland SN sound on the HP-307 was uncannily right - just as if a small grand was playing in the house.

Cheers,

Steve

Piss Poor? Aidan, can you teach me how to play "piss poor" like you do? I would really enjoy it.

Anyway, thanks for those demos. Really interesting to me as I am considering getting this SN upgrade in the next couple months. All in all the SN sounds sounded great, although a couple of the accented notes did bother me a little bit in the way their brightness/character sounded.

This is not correct. The GX was out before Roland released any of their SN piano sounds. The GX was loaded with SN EP sounds, but not acoustic piano sounds. The NX has more SN sounds, is made with the SN sound engine from the start, and has the PHA III action. I think the NX is going to be a monster DP for piano players. If that is it from Roland for a while, I'll probably upgrade to that at a later date. I had preordered one, but decided to cancel my order and keep my GXF for the time being until I get to sit down and spend some time with the NX.

On a side note, of all the digital pianos I've played, my GXF is the closest in sound, decay, response, playability, etc. than anything else I've tried, and I expect the NX to be even better. I was very impressed with the addition of the SN upgrade, and would highly recommend anyone with a GX to buy it. It's worth every penny.

Well I play almost entirely out of the Real Books and American Songbooks, and my GXF is wonderful playing jazz. I think the idea that Yamaha's are better than Roland, Kawai, Korg, Kurzweil, etc is overblown really. It comes down to each individual piano player, and what they feel and how they hear. I much preferred my GX pre SN upgrade to my old CP300, and I much prefer my GXF over the CP1/CP5. It's all way too personal to give sweeping generalizations about which is best for what. Thankfully, when you're talking about DPs in the class of the RD-700GXF/NX/V-Piano, CP1/5, etc, they're all so good at what they're intended for, in the end it comes down to personal preference. Just my {twocents}


Nor with myself. The SN upgrade dramatically improves the overall acoustic piano experience with the GX, which was already a great DP. I'd highly encourage anyone with a GX considering the SN upgrade to go forward with it.

@Steve; you sold your HP-307 ?! Why , if I may ask ? Not happy with it ? Would be interesting info for potential buyers...

Lovely performance. You should be proud of yourself.

The piano sounds very nice but it does have it's sharp edge when you thump the keys which sounds slightly digitally. How did you record it?? Sorry if I missed that...

Every time I hear the SN, it sounds sooo close to a acoustic piano to me that i'm quite floored. I'm really looking forward to trying the FP7F at the moment..

Regards, Rimmer

Great playing Aidan. I liked the improv on 'All The Things You Are'. Nice