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Topic Options
#1546428 - 10/29/10 05:35 PM This piano Sucks! What's wrong with it?
slerk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 320
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSWePkuHJ9k

Do you know how to fix these problems?

1) Odd loss of touch sensor in the bass while playing certain intervals

2) Loud clicking keys.


Any piano that can overcome this? Under 1000 dollars?

i've been stuck with this thing for 7 years.

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#1546434 - 10/29/10 05:46 PM Re: This piano Sucks! What's wrong with it? [Re: slerk]
motif Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 215
every piano keys click, especially after 7 years.
The solution is to buy new instrument every 2 years max.

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#1546436 - 10/29/10 05:47 PM Re: This piano Sucks! What's wrong with it? [Re: slerk]
slerk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 320
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Sure, but are they loud and do they sound like thundering clouds?

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#1546556 - 10/29/10 10:10 PM Re: This piano Sucks! What's wrong with it? [Re: slerk]
galaxy4t Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 855
Loc: Lakewood, CA
The loud clackity keys are one of the tradmarks of Casio pianos and keyboards. It is caused by the weighted hammer action which becomes more pronounced as the felt dampers inside flatten out. Because the hammers now travel further, the keys chatter and become excessively noisy. Replacing the felt damper probably the lower one that the hammers stay parked against when the piano isn't being played will help quiet it down. You might also need a new piece of felt under the overhang covering the back of the keys.

As far as the other problem with the sound, the sensors might be dirty and or the ribbon cable from the keyboard to the sound processing circuit might be loose. There is a connector that the ribbon cable sits in that might be loose and not making proper contact. You will have to disassemble the piano to have a look.

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#1546585 - 10/29/10 11:04 PM Re: This piano Sucks! What's wrong with it? [Re: galaxy4t]
slerk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 320
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
The loud clackity keys are one of the tradmarks of Casio pianos and keyboards. It is caused by the weighted hammer action which becomes more pronounced as the felt dampers inside flatten out. Because the hammers now travel further, the keys chatter and become excessively noisy. Replacing the felt damper probably the lower one that the hammers stay parked against when the piano isn't being played will help quiet it down. You might also need a new piece of felt under the overhang covering the back of the keys.

As far as the other problem with the sound, the sensors might be dirty and or the ribbon cable from the keyboard to the sound processing circuit might be loose. There is a connector that the ribbon cable sits in that might be loose and not making proper contact. You will have to disassemble the piano to have a look.


THANKS for a effective reply!

The noise is not as much as a problem as the sensors.

Last sunday was the 4th time I have taken it apart and the most thorough. I removed the whole key assembly from the piano and sprayed compressed air everywhere. replacing the ribbon back into the port is something that I do not want to do again; it is a great struggle!

can you explain how to clean the sensors?

thanks.

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#1546587 - 10/29/10 11:08 PM Re: This piano Sucks! What's wrong with it? [Re: slerk]
NoFingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 84
Loc: USA
I agree with galaxy about replacing the felt strip, that would quiet it down considerably. Many pianos, acoustic or digital can be well served by doing that. I think those sensors are dirty also. They are registering as being struck hard every time. If possible, opening it up and blowing it out with an air compressor should do, just be careful not to do it too close to the circuits as condensation could get on them.

Oh, and every digital piano in the world, with the volume OFF is going to sound clacky. I don't care if it's Casio, Yamaha, or Roland. Especially if it's older or has seen a high amount of use. Example, one of my work-mates has an older Yamaha p120. Awesome piece of equip, but it was becoming clacky as hell from use. Long story short, he was able to get Yamaha to send him a new felt piece and he replaced it when he cleaned out his keybed. Really did help soften the noise.

Oh, and I think he replaced some type of long foam piece that ran under his keys too. Not sure what that was for, I only saw pictures of his keyboard disassembled. If anyone knows what that may have been?

Anyhow, wish you the best of luck!!!

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#1546613 - 10/29/10 11:38 PM . [Re: NoFingers]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2842
.

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#1546620 - 10/29/10 11:52 PM Re: This piano Sucks! What's wrong with it? [Re: slerk]
galaxy4t Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 855
Loc: Lakewood, CA
I think blowing the sensors out with compressed air is about all you can do. You can use a compressor if you have one or cans of compressed air. Be careful not to tilt the can as the air will come out as liquid. I think there's a good chance the ribbon cable is not making proper contact. You might need to look at it and straighten it a little so it makes good contact. I had the first 7 keys that didn't work after I put mine back together. Sometimes they would sound and were loud like yours. Reseating the ribbon cable fixed it.

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#1546645 - 10/30/10 12:44 AM Re: This piano Sucks! What's wrong with it? [Re: pv88]
PeteF Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/15/10
Posts: 128
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: pv88
Not sure that keeping the piano you have is a good idea, as Casio is well known for issues with keys, and more recently, even pedal resonance issues.

Go look for a new one, and try Roland, Kawai, or Yamaha.

You will be glad that you did!


Whoa hold on a minute! I don't believe Casio are in fact "well known" for issues with pedal resonance. In fact an internet search reveals only one person complaining about that, and that is you, via virtually identical messages on numerous boards.
_________________________
No that wasn't a bum note! It was my ... "artistic interpretation" emerging.

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#1546813 - 10/30/10 08:20 AM Re: This piano Sucks! What's wrong with it? [Re: slerk]
NoFingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 84
Loc: USA
If there is a keyboard with any type of issue, that is not Yamaha, Roland or Kawai. It immediately becomes a "known issue" with that maker. Anyone ever notice that too?

I don't know about you all, but I see posts from all piano makers with keyboard problems.

Back to the subject at hand. Do you guys think a soft toothbrush with a quick drying cleaner could help him clean his sensors? I'm not sure how sensitive they are... maybe computer cleaner?


Edited by NoFingers (10/30/10 08:21 AM)

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#1546814 - 10/30/10 08:35 AM Re: This piano Sucks! What's wrong with it? [Re: slerk]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
No tooth brush. Too hard.
Q tip cotton swaps or a soft cloth + alcohol (spirit).
To clean metal contacts a soft pen-eraser works very well.
But dont use too firlmly and not too often. Mostly these are gold plated and this is very thin.
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Bl├╝thner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1547025 - 10/30/10 03:35 PM Re: This piano Sucks! What's wrong with it? [Re: NoFingers]
PeteF Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/15/10
Posts: 128
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: NoFingers
If there is a keyboard with any type of issue, that is not Yamaha, Roland or Kawai. It immediately becomes a "known issue" with that maker. Anyone ever notice that too?


A cynic may also be led to believe that some may use BBs to generate rumours when in fact the person has an agenda. Fortunately I'm sure none here would stoop that low.

By way of interest, how do the sensors actually work? The new Casios have 3 sensors per key, but I hadn't stopped to really think what comprises the sensor until just now. The fact they can be cleaned suggests to me some form of mechanical switch then???
_________________________
No that wasn't a bum note! It was my ... "artistic interpretation" emerging.

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#1547047 - 10/30/10 04:07 PM Re: This piano Sucks! What's wrong with it? [Re: PeteF]
LesCharles73 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 739
Loc: Denton Texas
Here are a few pictures of the disassembled keybed from a Kurzweil SP88X digital piano.





As you can see, the sensors [under the light gray buttons] are essentially composed of soft rubber buttons which press a series of contacts which are printed on the circuit board (similar technology found under the button pads of calculators and phones).

This Kurzweil has two sensors per key. One is for 'soft' velocity and the other is for 'hard' velocity. When a key is struck, both sensors are usually struck and the keyboard's sound engine measures the amount of time between the contact of each button. If the amount of time is very short, it is computed as a high velocity. When the amount of time is longer, or the 'hard' sensor is never activated, the velocity is read as 'light'.

This is the PCB keypad under a computer keyboard. Though not exactly the same layout, a digital piano's PCB is not much different, fundamentally.


The gray contact strip can be removed from the PCB [held in place usually by rubber studs which protrude through the PCB], exposing the contacts. The underside of the rubber strip can and should be thoroughly cleaned (I like the idea of Q-tips and rubbing alcohol. Take care in cleaning the PCB contacts. They are carbon and can be rubbed off if too much force is exerted!

Often times, dirt and crud get in to these sensors and cause read errors, resulting in a max velocity to be falsely registered.


Edited by LesCharles73 (10/30/10 04:16 PM)
_________________________
Les C Deal





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#1547053 - 10/30/10 04:19 PM Re: This piano Sucks! What's wrong with it? [Re: LesCharles73]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4602
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: LesCharles73
This Kurzweil has two sensors per key. One is for 'soft' velocity and the other is for 'hard' velocity. When a key is struck, both sensors are usually struck and the keyboard's sound engine measures the amount of time between the contact of each button. If the amount of time is very short, it is computed as a high velocity. When the amount of time is longer, or the 'hard' sensor is never activated, the velocity is read as 'light'.

A two sensor keyboard usually works this way: the sensors are mechanically designed so that one of them closes first. So when a key is played, software starts a timer when the first sensor makes contact, and the timer is stopped when the second sensor makes contact. Time is directly related to the velocity at which the key was played.

In a three sensor keyboard, the three switches close sequentially as the key is pressed farther. When the top sensor is open the note is damped. The middle and bottom sensors are used to time the velocity as in the two sensor case above. If your sound engine is sophisticated enough to handle damping speed, you can play timing games with the top and middle sensor to detect note off velocity.
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#1547069 - 10/30/10 04:49 PM Re: This piano Sucks! What's wrong with it? [Re: dewster]
LesCharles73 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 739
Loc: Denton Texas
Thank you, Dewster for that more technical and easier to understand approach.

Here I have added a few more pictures of the sensors.

This is the contact strip:


Here are the PCB contacts:


Interesting note: In theory, this keyboard could "easily" be cut in half to create a 44-key weighted digital piano. This might not be a bad option for me seeing that two of the keys are broken and replacements are no longer available! Notice that the PCB is in two pieces and adjoined by a short ribbon cable.


Anyone wanna contract me out to build them a 44-key digital piano? ')
_________________________
Les C Deal





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#1547213 - 10/30/10 09:15 PM Re: This piano Sucks! What's wrong with it? [Re: LesCharles73]
PeteF Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/15/10
Posts: 128
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: LesCharles73
Anyone wanna contract me out to build them a 44-key digital piano? ')


In all seriousness do a search of the BB on people asking about suitable travel pianos as this was one option mooted and you may have somebody take you up on your offer!

Thanks guys for posting those pictures and the explanations made good sense.

Pete
_________________________
No that wasn't a bum note! It was my ... "artistic interpretation" emerging.

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