Hooray. From an existing Kawai owner who can actually play as well..!

I personally really look forward to your review..

Regards. Rimmer

James: I hear what sounds like harsh clipping in the Tine EP 1 demo, at time 26s. (just a very brief clip)

Greg.

I only hear the "chuff" artifact (if it is an artifact) in the acoustic pianos.

Another thing though: I hear some background hiss. I've played a soundfile that contains only silence, on the same system, and I do not hear any hiss, so the hiss is definitely in those demo recordings.

Greg.

I had to go to a translation website to figure that one out but i'd have to agree...!

That was (and i've said similar regarding the Roland FP7f video) a sack of pooh. Kawai 'Europe' releases their only video of their flagship digital piano and chooses German as the default language. Genius...

Not only that, they disable comments on the video by default (not what Youtube is supposed to be all about...). Then the German chap (who can sort of play, but no better than any old keyboard player you've stumbled across in life) rattles over the whole video whilst showing detailed video of the fact the unit has midi ports. Unbelievable. I think the USB port was mentioned at least twice (of course that's all we're interested in). Talk about being out of touch with your customers..

I'm not only bashing Kawai for this. The Roland FP7f vid was as bad from a true 'information' providing point of view but at least it was a little more entertaining. I felt I got nothing out of this. If anything, it's put me right off the company altogether at the moment..

Give me a piano piece recorded properly and played by a high quality pianist. Give me an EP piece played by a funky keyboard dude. Give me a piece of paper with the connections written on it.

I remember when Native Instruments Absynth was released. They had demos on their website made by people that have been left to play with it. You could submit your own. That was a sensible idea of the highest proportions. These cheese videos show us nothing at all and the sooner they realise that, the sooner people will be able to at least try and make a reasonable judgement (in the absence of the opportunity to actually play one) on how it sounds in the real world..

Oh. And that piece at the end was horrible. They have no idea whatsoever..

Hmmm...perhaps I ought to invest in a video camera?

Cheers,
James
x

EDIT: Well, I believe I've been around on this forum long enough to know what you folks want to hear, so we'll see. It wouldn't be anything official though, more of a personal project.

That would be a good start. At least it would a real person giving a real demo of the sounds...!!

Would you have the authority to do that? That said, the boards will be out soon (or now by the sounds of the Mp6) so we might get some filter down from the early adopters..

Regards. Rimmer

This is slightly offtopic, and sorry to reopen this matter again, but I would like to get your feedback. I have recorded some CA63 (in this regard we're back on topic because CA63 should sound identical or at least very similar to MP10) Concert Grand pling pling (playing) using line-out with my Zoom H1 with highest possible recording settings (24bit, 96khz) along with a compressed version of the same recording using 256kbit CBR MP3. See the attached link. I would really like to know if you can hear any differences:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post1544857

Yes, absolutely. And not being official will probably make it a much better demo at that.

Aaron

So...can anyone at this stage state if the "ziff" noise at the attacks of the acoustic piano notes are an anomaly of the demo-files, or are in the actual piano sound of the MP10 itself ? I can hardly believe the latter, because that would render the piano-sound unusable (at least to me). I sort of answered the question here myself, but want to be sure...;-)

I anyone has any comments on my previous questions about the difference in ivory touch surface quality between Roland and Kawai and if the MP6 also has a limited pedal resolution (like the CA-13), that would be welcome information....

$ 2499 for the MP10, that would translate to a bottom price of about € 2249 here in Europe if I'm correct. (Not in exact exchange rate but based on the difference in price between the MP6 in US $ and Euro's).

Or perhaps a bit higher to equal the price of the RD700NX, which wouldn't make sense to me, but hey...it's marketing guy who's doing the calculations. Same guy who cut the UHPI from the MP6 probably, so you can expect anything ;-)

Curious when official pricing will be available over here...

Yes, the quality of both samples was excellent. But what impressed me more was the tonal quality of the CA63. That is the AP sound that I want to create on stage - a lot of our repertoire is quite subtle when it comes to AP.

Every time I hear UPHI, it depresses me that unless I can afford to hire a couple of roadies, I can't have it. PHI, HI and any other LO-PHI should be consigned to the trash can of history!

Hello Voxpops

I'm considering the CN33 or the new MP6, both utilises the Progressive Harmonic Imaging engine. You are praising the UPHI version, what are the main differences between the two based on your experience? It is some sort of SuperNatural (Roland) kind of hybrid sample/modelling solution or alike? Apart from being a solution of having more degrees of freedom (piano designer function), what is the actual difference, what do you think/hear?

Yesterday I tested the Roland RP201 and F110, sound-wise I was suprised how inhomogeneous was the the piano tune. It was inconsistent both "vertically" and "horizontally" by that I mean: velocity switching was extremly audible and obvious, plus there was a huge difference in timbre between velocities for keys say F3,F#3, just an example. I think the mezzoforte sample for those (and several others) were somewhat dirty/poisoned with metallic timbre sound components, but only for the mforte velocity sample-component. When I move upwards to forte or fff, the next velocity sample was again inline with the expected timbre dynamics (w/o metallic overtones). It was clearly some sort of sampling error or some error in the original sample. Found several sections/keys as well with the same problem.
Apart from the velocity inhomogenity (timbre change in an inconsistent and would say "bad" way) there are the stretched notes issue as well both on the RP201 and F110.
Sample switching at approx 3-4 notes (not tested so deeply tough) but was clearly audible as you scale from C0 to C5 for ex at mezzo-mezzopiano for example.

All in all: when I use harsh words like "obvious stretching" and "obvious velocity switching" and "both vertical (0-127) and horizontal (~C0-~C6) inhomogenity", I mean "audible artifacts" which I have spotted when playing an acual piece. It was far from being a scientifical test with spectrographs and oscilloscopes, nor computer used at all. It was purely audible at when playing a medicore, simple cover piece on piano using a medium category headphone (7 year old Sennheiser HD497)

Back to Kawai and back to my original question regarding PHI and UPHI: when played the CN33, I was not aware of nor horizontal nor vertical inconsistencies. velocity switching was inaudible, smart nicely blended samples both horizontally (C0-C6) and vertically (ppp-fff: midi vel 0-127).

I think this is really something in the Kawai engine. (sort of supernatural-like modelling in decays maybe?)

What do you think ybout UPHI vs PHI or xHI in general?

Cheers

Oh my...€ 2059 at the MusicSTore, that's less than I expected. The problem is, that makes me doubt very much again; should I break my back or not and order the mp10 ?!

Then perhaps you have a little cash left to acquire something like this:
http://www.musicworldbrilon.de/Tastenins...-150--8662.html

Looks nice, thanks.

hannibal2, you really should address this question to kawaijames. In the last few years I have had virtually no direct experience of Kawai DPs. However, I have been listening very carefully to the samples available of PHI and UPHI over the past weeks, and I have come to the conclusion that UPHI is clearly superior, and begs the question as to why PHI should exist at all.

UPHI seems to have considerably more sound definition, appears to employ a greater number of sample layers, and has a more natural-sounding decay/loop signature. To my ears, it sounds very close to a real piano. I have not been able to check it against Roland's SuperNATURAL engine, but I believe it will probably give it a run for its money.

As far as I'm aware, (and stand to be corrected) the variants of Harmonic Imaging do not use modeling as such, but do blend velocity layers very smoothly. James has pointed out that PHI is a "condensed" version. It has a fraction of UPHI's memory and so is compromised in terms of detail. I thought the MP6 demos revealed static-sounding decay/looping (lacking the natural beating and fluctuations of a real piano), inadequate timbre change for pianissimo playing, and slightly unnatural upper-mids. BUT, I am only going off mp3 demos - without direct experience it is impossible to speak definitively. The difficulty of finding a Kawai to audition is a real issue for most potential purchasers.

You mention Roland's shortcomings, but I don't believe the models you played use the new SuperNATURAL engine. In the last few months Roland has been rolling out SN across a large part of its range, and the reports are extremely favorable. My argument is that Kawai should do the same with UPHI. Why equip their only truly portable "professional" stage piano with an inferior sound engine at a time when Roland is putting SN in both the RD-700NX and the FP-7f? UPHI would have allowed Kawai to compete agressively in the stage piano market. Instead, buyers like me who want the best possible sound from their stage piano but cannot manage 70lbs plus for gigging are left with little alternative to Roland.

I have gone on ad nauseam about this in the last few weeks, but only because this kind of nonsensical marketing tactic drives me to despair. I may be proven wrong about PHI and the MP6, in which case I shall rejoice and promptly buy one. However, UPHI is clearly better (otherwise why develop it?), and I shall always know that I cannot play with the full range of expression and tonal subtlety that would have been available to me if Kawai had offered me the chance.

Voxpops, I understand your frustration, but I must point out that you _can_ get out whatever sound you may want from the MP6 - if you are willing to use a software piano. I have read reports that even a really small, light and inexpensive asus eeepc is able to run Pianoteq fairly well.

Csillag

Csillag, I already have Pianoteq Play on my little Dell Netbook - and it works very well. VB3 is also on there - fabulous virtual B3! I could run that on a used MP5 for about half the cost of a new MP6. However, there is no way I'm going to use that setup on a gig - just too many possible points of failure. No, I'm one of those dinosaurs who wants/needs a hardware solution, and is no longer willing to compromise on sound, given that very good technology is becoming available now. And I don't mind paying for it...

I am teetering on the brink of getting the Nord Piano - fully updateable and a sensible weight. I gather a Bosendorfer grand is on its way for that. But from what I've heard so far, I think the MP10's EPs may actually be better than the Nord's. Again, just one more little frustration. I feel a bit like a spoiled child stamping it's foot at not getting it's own way - but on the other hand, like Dewster, I think you have to be a squeaky wheel otherwise nothing changes.

While it's true that you're introducing additional possible points of failure, at least you would have the MP5 (or MP6) internal sounds as a backup, which should at least let you get through a gig okay in the event that your preferred sound source fails, which presumably would be rarely.

Also, if Pianoteq Play runs on a V-Machine, that would presumably be a bit safer than the netbook... physical design less likely to be prone to being knocked over or otherwise inappropriately handled; more solid audio connectors, less likely to pull out or break; probably more stable from a software perspective (not Windows, and dedicated so it's not trying to do other things at the same time, something it can be very difficult to convince Windows to stop doing); and if it dropped, a more road-worthy casing, without a hard drive or laptop style screen, so probably more likely to survive the fall and keep on going.

Arguably, an MP6 + a V-Machine with Pianoteq could be superior to a theoretical MP6 with UPHI piano, even if it existed.

Sad, isn't it, that that might be true.

You mentioned V-machine in your post - seems like a great concept hampered by poor implementation. I've been following the posts on the SM Pro Audio forum, and there are a lot of very frustrated owners. I've also been waiting for the new Musebox to arrive (supposed to be here in the summer, but it's gone deathly quiet since then...)

No, since I already use a Plugiator for synth and some organ sounds, I really don't want any more add-on boxes. I might even get one of the new lightweight Kurzweil SP4-7's to cover those bases. I'm determined to find the best, portable piano out there - one that I can turn on and play, and not feel I'm hampered by poor or unresponsive action, or by uninspiring sounds.

On paper, the MP6 was going to be it, but somebody is going to have to really convince me that it's not just another repackaging of sound technology that's already been superseded.

For everyone interested ; the MP6 is now in stock at the big stores in Europe and if some are willing to take the lead (and the risks) we might see some user reports trickling in quite soon.

Can't wait ;-)

You're right about the V-Machine having its problems, but if you only need it to do one thing, and it does that one thing, you might be okay. It also has the virtue of being small and light enough that you could probably velcro it to an MP-5/MP-6 (or SP4 for that matter), leave it permanently attached and wired up, and have it "disappear" into the setup enough to not feel like "yet another add on box" and you could pretty much forget it's there. (It's definitely much smaller than the Plugiator!)

I'm very curious to feel the SP4-7 action, but they will be coming out with an SP4-8 with a true weighted action too.

See Frankdaddy's post late on during the previous page...!

According to UPS the MP6 should be in my hot little hands by next Wednesday or so. I will give a quick report back as soon as I can.

Very much looking forward to that. I'm sure it's a great keyboard!!

You'd need the still unavailable processor upgrade (price?) for the V-Machine to run the latest version of Pianoteq successfully. On stage you could indeed forget it's there, in the studio you would keep hearing that annoying high-pitched fan noise.

High Quality Sound demo's: please - I don't want to re-open this whole MP3 v.s. FLAC/AIFF/WAV discussion again !

I'm only very much interested in some additional sound demo's of the piano sounds of the MP10 (and perhaps MP6). In HQ format (not MP3). I'm nearing my decision and listened again to the material that is available on the Kawai website. I really hear this ziff noise all the time in the mid registers , especially at FF levels. As if the key is pushed through some sort of felt material before it hits the snare. Listen carefully at F to FF passages in the mid registers at the beginning (transients) of the notes. You really can't miss it. If this is part of the sampled piano sound of the Kawai, then it's NOT for me. I'm completely annoyed by it in the sound demo's already, apart from playing the machine myself each day.

I really hope when someone records the actual HQ outputs of the instrument with a good AD converter and puts it in non-compressed format on the web, that this noise is gone and that it's not a flaw in the recorded sample material in the sound engine. Especially some loud passages in the mid and mid-high registers.

Thanks, J

Yes. The notes sort of sound like they are being sucked out of a straw to me.

Greg.

IIRC, some of the first Roland SN piano videos I watched had a strange chuffing sound. It was quite distressing to think that it might be in the DP, when in reality it was just overcompressed audio. Are all A/V publicity types deaf?


SQUEAK!!

Chances are they outsourced the job to some other firm is quite high. And those people probably never played a piano in their life. Ok, perhaps a little harch but I've been working in that business for a couple of years. To make the cut you take on the most odd... jobs...