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#1549616 - 11/02/10 08:26 PM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: Doomdog]
achat Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 536
Loc: Rome, Italy
That's interesting,

exploring the Yamaha website I finally got something which seems to prove a difference in the sound (and in the Sustain Pedal) between P85 and P95.

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/Multimedia/CP_SpecChart_REV1.swf

Interesting videos for each feature explaining differences and mechanism.

Here is a comparison between CP33 and CP300

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/Multimedia/PSP_SpecChart_REV1.swf

A.


Edited by ashat (11/02/10 08:39 PM)

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#1549638 - 11/02/10 08:55 PM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: achat]
Possum SP280Krome Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 616
One retailer offers $50 discount and you can get 10% off via another coupon so I was able to land my P95 for $445 which seems to be the going rate for the P85 these days.

However, I would have purchased the newer model anyway in this instance.

However, I had really been looking at a YDP-140 and would not have paid more for the YDP-141.

Ultimately, I decided the P95 was more convienient for me.
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#1549646 - 11/02/10 09:05 PM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: achat]
Martin C. Doege Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 448
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
Originally Posted By: ashat
That's interesting,

exploring the Yamaha website I finally got something which seems to prove a difference in the sound (and in the Sustain Pedal) between P85 and P95.

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/Multimedia/CP_SpecChart_REV1.swf


So according to that table the P-95 has "dynamic stereo sampling" like the P-155 while the P-85 does not. Of course dewster would now ask if "dynamic stereo sampling" is just marketing gibberish or actually means anything. wink

Originally Posted By: dewster
I honestly don't know why ever DP doesn't at least have a 4 digit 7 segment LED display, they go for peanuts and could really help with reducing switches and increasing functionality & clarity.


Those LED displays are a slight distraction, especially when playing in a darkened room. One of the things I liked about the P-85 was there's nothing in the middle of the keyboard flickering at you. I don't need a red "120" shining in my face all the time, thank you very much.

The user interface of the P-85/95 is as it should be: frequently used functions are on dedicated buttons, less frequently used ones are on piano keys and generally it's very minimalistic and clean in terms of LEDs and buttons. In short, it's exactly the kind of elegant serenity one expects both from Japanese industrial design and a real grand. I don't want my piano to look like a 747 cockpit.

Martin
_________________________
Yamaha P-85; Pianoteq Pleyel

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#1549656 - 11/02/10 09:17 PM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: Martin C. Doege]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Martin C. Doege
I don't need a red "120" shining in my face all the time, thank you very much.

On the P120 that's the metronome / model number reminder.
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#1549672 - 11/02/10 09:42 PM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: achat]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: ashat
... exploring the Yamaha website I finally got something which seems to prove a difference in the sound (and in the Sustain Pedal) between P85 and P95.

I watched the video and it only confused me further. How can the P95 possess "DYNAMIC STEREO SAMPLING" and yet have only have one velocity layer ("PIANO SAMPLES PER KEY")? By rights, shouldn't only multi-layer DPs have a dot here?

I tested Martin's P85 and it is almost certainly stereo, so I don't think that's what they are talking about. Did the chart dot placer screw up, or is there more to this than meets the eye/ear? I'm a cynic so I'm betting on (a convenient) screw-up.
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#1549684 - 11/02/10 09:56 PM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: dewster]
Martin C. Doege Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 448
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
Maybe DSS only refers to the two new voices. Because Grand Piano 1 sounds absolutely unchanged to me in the video. That table might be just clever marketing to obliquely suggest an improved piano sound when in fact it's exactly the same as on the P-85 and P-70.

The electric pianos on the P-85 on the other hand already use three layers, so if you include all voices it's already a multi-layer instrument. smile

Martin
_________________________
Yamaha P-85; Pianoteq Pleyel

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#1549706 - 11/02/10 10:34 PM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: dewster]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3182
Originally Posted By: dewster
I guess others did this as well, but the owner's manuals for the P85 and P95 list identical specs for the speakers & amps:

6W per side, 12cm x 6cm

I have a really hard time believing anything changed here. The German video person was probably just regurgitating the talking points incorrectly.


Maybe. But just the fact that both units use 12cm x 6 cm speakers doesn't necessarily mean they are the same speakers. If they wanted to upgrade the speaker quality, they could have put in a better speaker, but it would still have to be 12cm x 6cm because that's the only size speaker that would work in the existing housing. Obviously, a 12" JBL speaker and a 12" Peavey speaker don't sound the same, but they're both 12" -- you can't assume that same size equals same sound. And if they did put in better speakers, it is likely they have heavier magnets, which would be a possible source for the weight gain. You're right about what you said earlier though... what we really need is for someone to find out of the replacement part numbers for the speakers in the two models are the same.

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#1549708 - 11/02/10 10:37 PM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: achat]
anotherscott Offline
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Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3182
Originally Posted By: ashat

Is the German video claiming "better speakers" or "more powerful" speakers?

I guess we'll need a translation from someone who speaks German. But, what does it matter? Either way, they would be claiming an improvement, regardless of which adjective they used to describe the change.

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#1549728 - 11/02/10 11:03 PM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: achat]
anotherscott Offline
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Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3182
Originally Posted By: ashat
I can't see a reason why if the speakers are more powerful, the action is better than the GHS, the samples for the piano sounds are better, Yamaha didn't explicitely mention this in the specs, so to let potential buyers know.

Have you ever looked at Yamaha's web site? There's all kinds of missing information there. They're just not very good at providing thorough information, there are gaps all over the place. For that matter, we know for a fact that the P95 has an improvement that allows it to sit better on many stands. Try to find that information anywhere on Yamaha's web site.

However, as I alluded to earlier, if they are making minor improvements, they may not always want to make a big deal of them... i.e. to say "this model has a new, improved version of GHS" may not be in their interest, in terms of marketing clarity. It may raise unwanted questions about other models they are still selling that still have the older version. If they are making little tweaks all the time, they could end up having 5 models with 5 very slightly different versions of GHS, and then they're stuck trying to explain what makes one better or where each model ranks relative to the others, it can become more of an albatross than a benefit. They may simply want to market "GHS" and quietly tweak and improve it over time.

Originally Posted By: ashat
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
There are numerous other difference, as listed above. I would be curious to hear more first hand impressions from people who actually played both, however.


Until these are just unproved "impressions" of some users I don't think you could list these as "real differences".

This is why I originally referred to them as "definite or likely" differences... admitting we know more about some than others.

Definites: Different sounds, laying flat on stands, matte black keys, and something that makes it heavier.
Quite likely: Key dip, based on measurements of people here. Different speakers based on the German video.
Somewhat likely: Better sound (possibly due to better speakers above), Better feel (possibly due to items mentioned above).

To be as clear as I possibly can: I am NOT claiming that the P95 sounds better than the P85. I am pointing out that, as far as I've seen so far, we have one person on the forum who has heard both and says the P95 sounds better; and we have a whole lot of people who say it doesn't, but not a one of them has said they have actually listened to the two side by side. All I'm trying to do is to get people to stop saying they sound and feel the same, if the people haven't played the things (especially when there is reasonable evidence to indicate that there is some possibility that they are wrong). And to see whether we can get any more definitive information in the areas of uncertainty.

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#1549733 - 11/02/10 11:16 PM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: dewster]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3182
Originally Posted By: dewster
In fact, your PX-3 / PX-330 example of two very different DPs using the same case and buttons strikes me as somewhat contradictory to your point. It isn't necessary to add buttons, just change the functionality of those that exist

That requires removing a function for every function that you add (which is what they did with the PX-3). Sure, I'd rather have more sounds than the recorder or metronome buttons, but I bet someone would be just as unhappy about losing those functions. Unlike the PX-3 situation, there aren't all that many buttons to work with on the P85/P95, and not that many functions you can remove in order to add others.

Originally Posted By: dewster
if it ends up more cryptic than before, all the better as that is something of a Yamaha trademark.

Sadly true! Glad this series is an exception, though.

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#1549735 - 11/02/10 11:19 PM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: Martin C. Doege]
anotherscott Offline
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Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3182
Originally Posted By: Martin C. Doege
On the P-85, you can change to a different voice while a note using the original patch sustains. I think that's really a basic requirement for a stage piano and something reviewers have mentioned as more professional than the comparable entry-level Casios which abruptly stop a sound.

My original Casio didn't do that. My later Casio (PX-310) annoyingly did (it was because of the FX implementation, I think). The current Casio PX-3 works properly again. I'm not sure about the lower models, I would think they would at this point as well, but maybe someone else can confirm.

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#1549743 - 11/02/10 11:36 PM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: dewster]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3182
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: ashat
... exploring the Yamaha website I finally got something which seems to prove a difference in the sound (and in the Sustain Pedal) between P85 and P95.

I watched the video and it only confused me further. How can the P95 possess "DYNAMIC STEREO SAMPLING" and yet have only have one velocity layer ("PIANO SAMPLES PER KEY")? By rights, shouldn't only multi-layer DPs have a dot here?

I tested Martin's P85 and it is almost certainly stereo, so I don't think that's what they are talking about. Did the chart dot placer screw up, or is there more to this than meets the eye/ear? I'm a cynic so I'm betting on (a convenient) screw-up.


I agree, it could well be a screw-up on the chart. From what I can tell from the owner's manuals, both the P85 and the P95 have dynamic sampling (i.e. multi-layer) on the electric pianos, and neither has it on the acoustic pianos. In fact, the paragraph about this in the P95 manual is a direct lift from the P85 manual. So either it is the same, or someone forgot to update the change in the new manual. Presumably assuming I get you the DPBSD file, you'll be able to tell if the P95 has more layers than the P85?



Edited by anotherscott (11/03/10 02:46 AM)

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#1549752 - 11/02/10 11:55 PM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: anotherscott]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Presumably assuming I get you the DPBSD file, you'll be able to tell if the P95 has more layers than the P85?

It's not possible for me to tell the P85 is a single layer from the spectral views, but I'd probably be able to say whether or not the P95 AP is the same as the P85 AP, which is what we are all wondering.
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#1549789 - 11/03/10 12:53 AM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: dewster]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3182
Originally Posted By: dewster
It's not possible for me to tell the P85 is a single layer from the spectral views, but I'd probably be able to say whether or not the P95 AP is the same as the P85 AP, which is what we are all wondering.

Very good. Of course, if the only sound improvement (if there is any at all) comes from better speakers, the DPBSD won't show that... but it's a good start, especially for those of us who rarely use the internal speakers anyway.

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#1549977 - 11/03/10 10:25 AM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: anotherscott]
achat Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 536
Loc: Rome, Italy
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: ashat

Is the German video claiming "better speakers" or "more powerful" speakers?

I guess we'll need a translation from someone who speaks German. But, what does it matter? Either way, they would be claiming an improvement, regardless of which adjective they used to describe the change.


but "better" may be subjective, "more powerful" is objective and may be proved.

A.

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#1549984 - 11/03/10 10:35 AM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: Martin C. Doege]
achat Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 536
Loc: Rome, Italy
Originally Posted By: Martin C. Doege
Originally Posted By: ashat
Martin,
just to talk (a bit OT) of something which could be of interest for those possessing a P85, may I ask you if you are using the preset K1 sound in Pianoteq, or any modified version?

And are you using any specific "velocity curve" and voice selection on the keyboard to obtain a better result?
I read on a Pianoteq forum something like it is better to select Electric Piano and hard touch...

A.


It's true that the touch setting on the P-85 affects the generated MIDI values, so either set this to normal or hard I guess. I hope the selected voice has no influence.


Could it be related with the Electric Pianos being "multi-layer"?

Here is the link to the Pianoteq forum thread about P85 velocity curves.
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=1225

Originally Posted By: Martin C. Doege
and other than that I've just added Baroque tunings. E.g. Werckmeister or ET at 415 Hz.


Is this possible on the Pianoteq Play or just on the full version?

A.

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#1549997 - 11/03/10 11:03 AM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: dewster]
achat Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 536
Loc: Rome, Italy
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: ashat
... exploring the Yamaha website I finally got something which seems to prove a difference in the sound (and in the Sustain Pedal) between P85 and P95.

I watched the video and it only confused me further. How can the P95 possess "DYNAMIC STEREO SAMPLING" and yet have only have one velocity layer ("PIANO SAMPLES PER KEY")? By rights, shouldn't only multi-layer DPs have a dot here?


In fact here Yamaha declares "DSS" is not in the P95.

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/cda/flash/dp/videoplayer/dpvideoplayer.asp

A.

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#1550013 - 11/03/10 11:18 AM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: achat]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: ashat
In fact here Yamaha declares "DSS" is not in the P95.

Very good, ashat! Now it's a cage match fight to the death between two conflicting Yamaha Flash player chart dots. My money's on this latest dot being the correct one.
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#1550035 - 11/03/10 11:51 AM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: dewster]
Martin C. Doege Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 448
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
Originally Posted By: ashat

Could it be related with the Electric Pianos being "multi-layer"?

Here is the link to the Pianoteq forum thread about P85 velocity curves.
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=1225


I don't know if there is a difference between acoustic and electric voices in terms of MIDI velocities. You could try hitting the same note over and over with about the same speed while switching voices and watching the incoming MIDI velocities in PT for changes to find out.

Originally Posted By: ashat

Is this possible on the Pianoteq Play or just on the full version?


According to the screenshots at pianoteq.com, I guess 415 Hz is possible in PLAY, but changing the temperament is not...

Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: ashat
In fact here Yamaha declares "DSS" is not in the P95.

Very good, ashat! Now it's a cage match fight to the death between two conflicting Yamaha Flash player chart dots. My money's on this latest dot being the correct one.


Like I said, maybe DSS is present on the P-95, but not in the acoustic piano voice. Because page 2 only seems to talk about sampling grands, while page 1 with the table seems to lump all voices conveniently together.

The P-95 manual just notes that the electric pianos use multiple layers and calls that "Dynamic Sampling", but I guess that's no different from the P-85, is it?

Martin
_________________________
Yamaha P-85; Pianoteq Pleyel

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#1550103 - 11/03/10 01:59 PM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: achat]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3182
Originally Posted By: ashat
but "better" may be subjective, "more powerful" is objective and may be proved.

Well, either way, they would be *different* which is what gets back to my original point.
But actually "more powerful" is about as ambiguous as "better" is. What does "more powerful" mean? Louder? (Since the amp is the same, that would mean "more efficient.") Or more bass? Or maybe something else? Speakers don't actually have anything truly called "power" (although amplifiers do), so it's a fuzzy marketing word more than anything else.

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#1550111 - 11/03/10 02:10 PM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: anotherscott]
achat Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 536
Loc: Rome, Italy
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: ashat
but "better" may be subjective, "more powerful" is objective and may be proved.

Well, either way, they would be *different* which is what gets back to my original point.
But actually "more powerful" is about as ambiguous as "better" is. What does "more powerful" mean?


Power referred to a speaker is usally the power the speaker is able to handle. And it is measurable.
"Better" is not measurable.

A.

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#1550118 - 11/03/10 02:18 PM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: Martin C. Doege]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Martin C. Doege
The P-95 manual just notes that the electric pianos use multiple layers and calls that "Dynamic Sampling", but I guess that's no different from the P-85, is it?

I think you're right Martin, DSS probably applies to the EPs and not to the APs. I just checked the P-85 manual and found this on page 6:

Quote:
AWM Stereo Sampling
The Yamaha P-85 offers unmatched sonic realism and natural grand-piano type playability as well as Yamaha’s original “AWM Stereo Sampling” tone-generation technology for rich, musical voices.

In particular, the Grand Piano 1 and 2 voices feature samples painstakingly recorded from a full concert grand piano, while the Electric Piano 1 and 2 voice features multiple samples for different velocities (Dynamic Sampling); in other words, it uses different samples depending on the strength of your playing.

It might be though that the EPs are not sampled in stereo.
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#1550122 - 11/03/10 02:27 PM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: achat]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3182
Originally Posted By: ashat
Power referred to a speaker is usally the power the speaker is able to handle. And it is measurable.


Yes, a speaker has power handling capability. If the number is higher, it means it can work with an amplifier that is more powerful. The speaker itself is not more powerful. In fact, you can easily have a speaker that can handle 200 watts that ends up not being able to play as loud as some other speaker that can only handle 100 watts (because the efficiency is different). So it is definitely inappropriate to say that a speaker that can *handle* more power is "more powerful." (As an aside, in the case of the P85 and P95, the amps have the same power. So a speaker that could handle more power would offer no benefit, as there is no more power to handle.)

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#1550179 - 11/03/10 04:00 PM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: dewster]
Martin C. Doege Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 448
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
Originally Posted By: dewster

I think you're right Martin, DSS probably applies to the EPs and not to the APs. I just checked the P-85 manual and found this on page 6:


The problem is that the P-85 does not have DSS according to the table, but supposedly has the same electric piano voices as the P-95. So maybe the new Jazz organ is the answer?

Martin
_________________________
Yamaha P-85; Pianoteq Pleyel

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#1550272 - 11/03/10 05:58 PM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: anotherscott]
achat Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 536
Loc: Rome, Italy
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: ashat
Power referred to a speaker is usally the power the speaker is able to handle. And it is measurable.


So it is definitely inappropriate to say that a speaker that can *handle* more power is "more powerful."


but if saying "more powerful" the German video would mean "capable to handle more power" this could actually be measured.
if it is saying "better" this cannot be measured.

A.

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#1550383 - 11/03/10 07:47 PM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: achat]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3182
Originally Posted By: ashat
but if saying "more powerful" the German video would mean "capable to handle more power" this could actually be measured.


But "more powerful" doesn't in any way mean "capable to handle more power." I understand English is your second language, and maybe we're just running into a situation where the grammar isn't translating properly.

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#1550416 - 11/03/10 08:35 PM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: anotherscott]
achat Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 536
Loc: Rome, Italy
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: ashat
but if saying "more powerful" the German video would mean "capable to handle more power" this could actually be measured.


But "more powerful" doesn't in any way mean "capable to handle more power." I understand English is your second language,


Scott, it is not me and my English as a second language.

I wrote: "if saying more powerfu the German video would mean....", which means "maybe the German guy in the video is using the expression "more powerful" to mean "capable to handle more power", because as a commercial video it could be there are this kind of unprecise/approximative statements. And what matters in what I wrote is that a quantitative statement like that could be verified by some sort of measurement. While if he said "better" this to me means nothing, because it is subjective and cannot be verified/measured.

I was just trying to discover if he is using a quantitative statement (more powerful or something like that) or a qualitative statement (better).

Is it clear now? I hope so smile

A.

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#1550443 - 11/03/10 09:10 PM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: achat]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3182
Originally Posted By: ashat
[I wrote: "if saying more powerfu the German video would mean....", which means "maybe the German guy in the video is using the expression "more powerful" to mean "capable to handle more power", because as a commercial video it could be there are this kind of unprecise/approximative statements. And what matters in what I wrote is that a quantitative statement like that could be verified by some sort of measurement. While if he said "better" this to me means nothing, because it is subjective and cannot be verified/measured.

I was just trying to discover if he is using a quantitative statement (more powerful or something like that) or a qualitative statement (better).

Is it clear now? I hope so smile


Well, even if the German speaker did make a mistake and say "more powerful speaker" when he meant "speaker capable of handling more power" (which, at least in English, is not at all the same thing), what difference would that make if you're not actually sending it any more power? The amp is still just 6 watts, so substituting a speaker that can handle more power doesn't provide any benefit (unless the speakers in the P85 were insufficient for the 6 watt amp and were regularly distorting or getting blown, but I have seen no such complaints).

I think it is more likely he is making a properly worded qualitative statement to describe what he perceives as an actual benefit, rather than making a wrongly worded quantitative statement that actually would not produce any audible improvement.

Semantics aside, the real question is whether or not the speakers are actually truly different in any respect, that's what really matters here, and that is what we have not yet determined for certain.


Edited by anotherscott (11/03/10 09:13 PM)

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#1550452 - 11/03/10 09:29 PM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: anotherscott]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Semantics aside, the real question is whether or not the speakers are actually truly different in any respect, that's what really matters here, and that is what we have not yet determined for certain.

If I were a betting man I'd put lots of money on "no difference". If there truly was a change you'd see it reflected in the manual, the web, the specs, etc. - Yamaha would basically be shouting it from the rooftops. It costs real money to make changes, and they don't generally ignore them after they've gone out of their way to make them.
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#1550628 - 11/04/10 05:41 AM Re: Yamaha P85 vs. P95 [Re: anotherscott]
achat Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 536
Loc: Rome, Italy
Originally Posted By: anotherscott

I think it is more likely he is making a properly worded qualitative statement to describe what he perceives as an actual benefit,


which does not refer to a concrete difference so it is just a subjective evaluation.

Originally Posted By: anotherscott

Semantics aside, the real question is whether or not the speakers are actually truly different in any respect, that's what really matters here, and that is what we have not yet determined for certain.


and you should even consider that "different" does not necessarily implies "better"...

A.

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