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Whenever discussion about low-priced DPs start around here, almost always someone mentions the Yamaha P95 and says that the older P85 is pretty much the same (except for a couple of its non-piano sounds). As far as I can tell, this idea traces back to comments made when the P95 was announced, by people who had never played a P95 (it wasn't out yet), and the premise has been repeated religiously by numerous people ever since. However, the more I looked into this, the more I saw that there are some notable differences between the two models.

I could have missed some posts, but the one and only person I found here who actually said he played both instruments side by side (Liztique) said he noticed differences in the sound and feel. And in all the messages I saw that said they sounded/felt the same, there were a total of zero from people who said they'd actually played both of them, which makes me feel less confident about their opinions. (Though I realize they could have tried both and not mentioned it.)

Anyway, here are what appear to be definite or likely differences:

* The obvious one... two different non-piano sounds (a jazz organ instead of a second church organ, and a choir instead of a second harpsichord)

* The keyboard action.

a) The P95 has a nice matte finish to the black keys, the P85 has the glossier, more plasticky finish. (As an aside, in the Casio line, I've read comments where people feel that matte key finish alone is something worth paying more for.)

b) The key dip may be different, as one user measured the P85's key dip at 11mm, and I measured the P95's key dip at 12 mm (not necessarily better or worse, just possibly indicative of a further design change in the keyboards between the two models, and a reason someone may find the actions to feel different).

c) The one person who mentioned playing both side by side said that the action felt similar, but the P95 felt a little better. (That could be due to the above listed changes, or something else.)

* Stand stability. The P95 has a pair of small metal pieces added to the bottom, which allow it to sit on pretty much any stand. The P85 does not easily sit on many stands.

* Possibly the piano sound. As I mentioned, the only person here who said he played both said that he found a "noticeable" improvement to the piano sound. Whether Yamaha tweaked the sample, or the sound processing, or put in higher quality (albeit same-sized) speakers, or made some other change, I have no idea. But absent hearing from anyone who has actually tried both and found no sonic difference, I am inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the one person who directly compared them.

* The weight - According to the spec sheets, the P95 is 14 ounces heavier. Maybe the matte keys are heavier, the extra metal pieces on the bottom probably add an ounce or two, maybe the speakers are heavier, maybe it's something else, but it is more evidence that it is not simply the same instrument with 2 different sounds, which would not have changed the weight.

Whether the differences are worth paying more for is an individual decision, but I think people should be aware that there are differences. Unless someone plays both, I don't think they should assume the feel and sound are the same between the two, and have not been improved in the P95. However, if there are more people who have had the opportunity to play both side by side and comment on perceived differences (or lack of them), chime in here!

on the paper (i.e. Yamaha specs) the action is the same: GHS.

A.

This YT video (in German; at 2:02) claims that the speakers have been improved compared to the P-85: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s2759Q3RBM

Martin

I don't think we should assume that all GHS actions are absolutely identical. They can be based on the same principles and technology, but there is no reason they couldn't "tweak" it in various ways. They don't necessarily need to come out with a new acronym for every small variation or improvement they may make. (And in this case we know of at least one obvious difference, the matte finish.)

There ya' go. Now if only I spoke German. ;-) But yes, that speaks to my point, that a lot of people seem to be assuming so much is identical between the two, and stating it with apparent certainty, without knowing for sure, and without having played them.

I think what people are saying is that the entire class of GHS based Yamaha DPs are very close to each other and the differences are mostly the non-piano features.

A do think that not all GHS and not all GH keys are identical. I think Yamaha makes small incremental adjustments and later models may be improved over older. A year ago, I suspected this then checked on the Yamaha repair parts web site. You can find the part numbers there for internal parts and some spot checking shows they are not the same the part numbers between different GH key actions don't interchange. So I think "GHS" and "GH" are marketing names for two families of related key actions.

While the P95 might be different, it is not different enough for Yamaha to change their description of it on their web site.

The matte finish has nothing to do with the action.
The action is the mechanical system related to the key movement.

A.

Yes, I was lumping all aspects of "keyboard feel" under the action category for simplicity's sake, but yes, technically, you're right, the surface is not part of the action. It is part of the overall feel of the keyboard, that's what I was getting at. It is at least one reason the keyboards of the two models would not feel the same to play.

I still would not assume that every aspect of the action (or other things related to feel) are the same, just because they call them both GHS.

If someone says they played both and couldn't feel a difference, that's valid. If someone says that they haven't played both, but the must feel the same simply because they're both GHS, I think that's an unjustified reach.

Scott,

I am not claiming the two DPs are overall identical.
I do believe the P95 is an improvement(the new sounds, the bottom, maybe a slightly different action).

The point is if these improvements are worth the new model (successor) and the additional 100/120 Euros.

Not from the point of view of the customer, but from the point of view of Yamaha.

Just as an academical reasoning we could wondering about: are those "slight" improvements worth a new model? Or should a new model entails a more significant amount of steps forward if it comes 2 years later?

Does it make any sense for a buyer to choose between those two, or if one is basically unsatisfied with the level of a P85 so will be with a P95 and should step forward to a P155 level? (Or CP pianos)

Notice that the two models are both "current" models on Yamaha website. So it is not completely correct that the P95 is considered a successor. It is a new model with "by specs" little variations from the P85.

A.

That makes perfect sense to me. And seeing that the part numbers are different and that the GHS components are not interchangeable between all GHS models is strong evidence that there are differences, and it is reasonable to think that some of the differences could affect how they feel. So while all GHS models may feel roughly similar, it doesn't make sense to simply assume they will feel identical, or that you won't find one noticeably better to play than another.


Yes. As you said, it's marketing. They are invested in promoting GH vs GHS etc., and any change to their terminology has to be weighed, they need to consider the marketing advantage of promoting something as different/better, vs. the disadvantage of adding more confusing acronyms and muddling their pitch. If it's not a major new approach, it's probably not worth putting a new name on every minor tweak, and suddenly having a dozen different actions in the line, it would just add confusion to the market. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't incorporate improvements into new models, and it doesn't mean the differences are necessarily unnoticeable.

Of course we should not simply assume that the P95 feels better to play than the P85 just because it's newer... but I think it's equally mistaken to assume they feel the same just because they're both GHS. As I said, the only post I've seen so far from anyone who has actually played both side by side said that he thought the P95 felt better. Hearing opinions from people who have tried them is better than hearing people's assumptions presented as facts. I hope we'll hear from more people who have actually played both.

It is common that companies list out-of-production models on their web site as long as there are still some number left in stores and warehouses. If they are available to be purchased, people want to find information about them on the company's site. And if they are listed as "discontinued," suddenly no one will want to buy them. Korg does the same thing, they still list quite a few older and now hard to find products as among their current products. I would be surprised if Yamaha actually continued to manufacture new P85 models after they started manufacturing the P95. So I don't think Yamaha intended for people to need to choose between the two for very long.

The argument "did they improve it enough" needs to consider the alternative. Another message somewhere here said something like "why did they bother." Well then, if they didn't, we'd only have the P-85 for the next x years. If you don't think the P-95 is better, by all means, buy a P-85 while you can at its lower price. But 6 months from now, when there's only one of the two available, I think I'd rather that one be a P-95 than a P-85. It's a funny argument to say "It's better, but it's not enough better, so I'd rather they just kept marketing the one that wasn't as good."

But this is actually happening since at least 6 months, and you predict it will last maybe additional 6 months.
And you, as a buyer of the P95, looks more worried about the improvements than e.g. me (a buyer of the P85)..


A.

The P-95 is less an upgrade than a recalibration I think. Comments about the P-85 on the PWF and probably elsewhere indicated that:

(a) a DP for the North American market must have a Jazz organ if it wants to compete with Casio.
(b) changing the metronome speed is too cumbersome.
(c) nobody cares about that second church organ and harpsichord enough, so please replace them with something more useful.
(d) it should be easier to put this on an X stand.
(e) the black keys are too slippery when your fingers become sweaty.

Yamaha has addressed all those concerns. Perhaps they've simply read the PWF. So more power to Yamaha for improving an already successful product by listening to their customers.

Martin

I didn't mean that as a prediction at all. I haven't any idea how many unsold P85s are out there. I just figured that, if it took 6 months to get to the point where very few places have them, that it is likely that by 6 months from now you won't find any. But it could as easily be a week from now. I am only aware of one major online dealer who has any... though I don't know whether they have 1 or 100. But also, I would guess that the fact that the street price on the P95 has started to come down may be related to the imminent disappearance of the P85.


I'm not worried about anything. I'm just trying to prevent the spread of misinformation. People keep saying the two are virtually identical, so I thought it was worth pointing out somewhere that, in numerous respects, they aren't. Whether someone feels it's worth the price difference is another issue, but that's a whole different conversation from saying that there's no noticeable difference between them apart from the organ and choir sounds. There are numerous other difference, as listed above. I would be curious to hear more first hand impressions from people who actually played both, however.

(And technically, I'm not a buyer of the P95, though I do happen to have one at my disposal at the moment.)

I don't know, I am relative new to piano world, and DP piano world, but I feel like these kind of "improvements" could be made by Yamaha letting the price more or less unchanged, instead of increased of at least of 100 Euros.

They look more like a need to "fix defects" than an improvement of characteristics. And we just discover e.g. that to fix one of these, the instability on X stand, it just needs to put two small plates of 10cm long underneath...

But yes if we suppose the action is better, the piano sounds are better, the speakers are more powerful, despite the specs declare they are the same, maybe the extra 100 Euros are justified, who knows...

A.

I would argue that we essentially do have the P-85 for the next x years, which is pretty weird.

Yamaha yanking a church organ makes me kind of upset as DPs are often used in church settings. Here's a novel idea: why not add voices rather than replace them?

I would love a DPBSD of the main piano to confirm or deny if anything has changed there. Anyone know of a Yamaha spare parts site where we could check the specs of the other things like the actual speaker drivers used in both? Anyone want to take a screwdriver to their P85/95 and snap a few pix? All of these things are easily knowable beyond a reasonable doubt.

Well, from what I've gathered, I think we have a slightly improved P-85 for the next x years instead, that was my point. Maybe not as improved you would have liked, but still improved. Even if it were nothing but the matte finish keys and the ability to sit better on stands, though it seems like it's probably more than that.


One of the most expensive things about development of an instrument is the mold for the enclosure. This is why some of the button layout of the Casio PX-3 is a little less than ideal... they clearly made a decision to use the exact same enclosure as the PX-330. Different circuitry, different silk-screening, but the same mold, it has the exact same number of buttons in the exact same locations, even though they changed the function of what some of the buttons do. I imagine that Yamaha, likewise, did not want to retool, and needed to stick with the exact same number and location of buttons between the P85 and P95. That may be what led them to stick with the same number of sounds, that's all the buttons there are.


I will try to get you a DPBSD of the P95 when I"m back next week, I still have to figure out how to do it. If someone is friendly enough with a dealer, it should be possible to find out if the service part number for the speaker has changed between the two models, for confirmation of what was apparently said in that German video

Is the German video claiming "better speakers" or "more powerful" speakers?

A.

I guess others did this as well, but the owner's manuals for the P85 and P95 list identical specs for the speakers & amps:

6W per side, 12cm x 6cm

I have a really hard time believing anything changed here. The German video person was probably just regurgitating the talking points incorrectly.

It seems logical for those who are trying to choose between the P85 and P95 (let alone P85 users wondering if they should upgrade to the latter), to stretch the budget and get a DP from the class above, like P155. If they are ready to spend more for the better quality. Doesn't seem to be that much difference between those two similar pianos.

Maybe someone would like to write Musik Schmidt, or any other dealer for that matter, like Kraft Music, and enquire about the difference between P85 and P95.

http://www.musik-schmidt.de/content/gb/Contact.html