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#1552679 - 11/07/10 04:45 AM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: Mark_C]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Mark_C

I think you lose a lot of credibility when you do something like that. You sent us to a reference that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
Either you don't know who Friederike Streicher-Müller was or...hmm, donno. As for the OK folks - delusions of grandeur?
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1552680 - 11/07/10 04:49 AM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Mark_C Offline
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If you're serious, please tell us where that reference has anything related to what we're talking about, or what you said, or in fact, anything relevant at all, whatsoever. ha

Otherwise, we have to assume you're skrewing with us, as you have sometimes been known to do....
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1552682 - 11/07/10 04:52 AM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: Mark_C]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
skrewing with us
skrewing?? You really don't know who Friederike Streicher-Müller is do you? May I suggest an opportune Google?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1552684 - 11/07/10 04:56 AM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: Mark_C]
landorrano Offline
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Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2443
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Mark_C


OK folks, it's official: Ignore this guy's post on what Chopin supposedly said about pedaling.


I too have been told something of this sort about Chopin. Cannot give a written reference, it was in conversation.

As far as I know Chopin didn't publish a method book with a teachers copy. As with everything at the high levels of artistic traditions, the most important ideas are passed personally from master to pupil.

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#1552691 - 11/07/10 05:25 AM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: landorrano]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7426
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Peyton
It's been a long time since I took lessons but as I recall when I played Bach for my teacher she would insist I not use the pedal. Is that standard practice?



Whether it is standard or not (and I am guessing that with the better teachers, it is standard), it should be the basic starting point for playing Bach on piano.


For teaching Bach, I agree. I lose all confidence in a teacher who introduces pedaling and crescendos and diminuendos and so on to a youngster. It distracts attention from where it should be, which is not playing.

But playing Bach is another story, to each his own in my view.


Right. As I said, I think that using no pedal should be the starting point, for the reason I stated - but I didn't mean to imply it was also the end point (although it very well could be, too). I have heard plenty of good performances of Bach on piano where the pianist used pedal.

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#1552693 - 11/07/10 05:26 AM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: D4v3]
Victor25 Offline
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Posts: 1676
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@Mark C Not being able to verify someone's facts, is not the same as that person lying. I don't think we have to ignore what Keyboardklutz said at all.
_________________________
Currently working on: Perfecting the Op 2/1, studying the 27/2 last movement. Chopin Nocturne 32/2 and Posth. C#m, 'Raindrop' prelude and Etude 10/9
Repetoire: Beethoven op 2/1, 10/1(1st, 2nd), 13, 14/1, 27/1(1st, 2nd), 27/2, 28(1st, 2nd), 31/2(1st, 3rd), 49/1, 49/2, 78(1st), 79, 90, 101(1st)

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#1552696 - 11/07/10 05:33 AM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: Victor25]
stores Offline
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Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Victor25
@Mark C Not being able to verify someone's facts, is not the same as that person lying. I don't think we have to ignore what Keyboardklutz said at all.


You kind of DO have to when the link isn't at all supportive of the issue at hand. I know who the person to whom klutz is referring is, but that really means nothing in regard to the topic at hand.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1552698 - 11/07/10 05:38 AM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: D4v3]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Those in the know in the Chopin world are sitting on the edge of their seats waiting for publication of these letters. Shame that to some(one?) that just translates as 'skrewing with us'.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1552700 - 11/07/10 05:40 AM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: stores]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: stores
You kind of DO have to when the link isn't at all supportive of the issue at hand. I know who the person to whom klutz is referring is, but that really means nothing in regard to the topic at hand.
If you don't want to know what's in sought after unpublished letters re: Chopin by one of his top pupils that's your business - others may have an interest.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1552721 - 11/07/10 07:01 AM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: D4v3]
theJourney Offline
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Registered: 02/22/07
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Enquiring minds want to know!

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#1552729 - 11/07/10 07:48 AM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: D4v3]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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On his punctuality, contrary to other sources, she said it was poor - sometimes not turning up at all. At other times he sat in an adjacent room working while she played. He didn't allow much, if any, limb movement and on pedaling, as I've said, disallowed it till the fingers knew what they were doing. That's all I remember for now - hopefully some of them'll be published soon.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1552760 - 11/07/10 09:02 AM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: D4v3]
David-G Offline
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Registered: 01/17/06
Posts: 1228
Loc: London
Klutz, methinks you do enjoy winding people up... This does sound very fascinating. Do I take it that you were at the EPTA conference?

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#1552765 - 11/07/10 09:04 AM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: theJourney]
Orange Soda King Offline
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Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6035
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Originally Posted By: theJourney
I expect to see some back-pedalling on this standpoint.


You mean bach-pedaling? wink

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#1552783 - 11/07/10 09:43 AM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: keyboardklutz]
stores Offline
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Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: stores
You kind of DO have to when the link isn't at all supportive of the issue at hand. I know who the person to whom klutz is referring is, but that really means nothing in regard to the topic at hand.
If you don't want to know what's in sought after unpublished letters re: Chopin by one of his top pupils that's your business - others may have an interest.


Of course I'm interested in the letters, but that's not the point here. Someone asked you for evidence backing up your statement, but you've not given any...unless, of course, you've read aforementioned letters and found something we're unaware of.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1552825 - 11/07/10 10:30 AM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: stores]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Originally Posted By: David-G
Klutz, methinks you do enjoy winding people up... This does sound very fascinating. Do I take it that you were at the EPTA conference?
Yes, and as such
Originally Posted By: stores
...unless, of course, you've read aforementioned letters and found something we're unaware of.
you could say I've read extracts from the letters (from a projector screen along with everybody else there).
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1552958 - 11/07/10 02:15 PM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: landorrano]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: landorrano
....As far as I know Chopin didn't publish a method book with a teachers copy. As with everything at the high levels of artistic traditions, the most important ideas are passed personally from master to pupil.

Right -- but usually things like that were put in writing somewhere by somebody. There's a book (by a guy named Eigeldinger) that focuses on what his students said about his teaching, and many other sources that talk quite a bit about it, and those serve as the main references about this. Our fellow here gave a reference that supposedly had stuff about what he said -- but it doesn't.

If it's nowhere except what some of us 'heard somewhere,' it's probably not true, especially since it makes very little sense as a blanket rule. (Really I would say "none," but I'm trying to be kind.) smile

Originally Posted By: Victor25
Not being able to verify someone's facts, is not the same as that person lying. I don't think we have to ignore what Keyboardklutz said at all.

He backed it up with something that supposedly bore out what he said, but actually doesn't say anything about it. BTW I didn't say he was lying, I just think he was wrong and he's reluctant to say that he might be.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1552977 - 11/07/10 02:39 PM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: Mark_C]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3885
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Mark_C

He backed it up with something that supposedly bore out what he said, but actually doesn't say anything about it. BTW I didn't say he was lying, I just think he was wrong and he's reluctant to say that he might be.



Clearly the reference was to the speaker at the conference who is a descendant of the Streicher family. Friedericke Mueller-Streicher was a student of Chopin and is cited as such by many references, including Eigeldinger. Apparently a large number of her letters describing lessons with Chopin have been found, and, presumably, said speaker shared some excerpts with the audience. Excerpts of which were shared here by Kbk and in his trademark style.
So it is a bit disingenuous to claim that the weblink has absolutely no relationship to what he said. On the other hand, there are no quotes from said letters there (or anywhere else). I suppose we will have to wait and see what gets published.. I would not necessarily extrapolate and radically pronounce him "wrong" AND reluctant to admit it!!!

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#1552980 - 11/07/10 02:46 PM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: Andromaque]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Andromaque
....it is a bit disingenuous to claim that the weblink has absolutely no relationship to what he said. On the other hand.....

Sorry, but that part is plainly wrong, and obviously I disagree with much of the rest too. I assumed he did mean that the link had something about what we were talking about, esp. since he said 'see page 2.' "Disingenuous" means I realized there wouldn't necessarily be anything about it there and I'm just being rhetorical or something like that; in fact I genuinely feel what I said -- and I think you must have missed something or else you wouldn't doubt it: I assumed it so much that, as I mentioned, I even looked carefully through the other pages to see if maybe the page numbers were showing up differently for me than for him, or maybe he made a mistake about which page it was.

When someone wonders about backup for a specific point, and the other person gives a link and points you to a certain page......well, I'm very surprised you think what you said.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1552986 - 11/07/10 02:56 PM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: D4v3]
keyboardklutz Offline
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There's no talking sense to some people. Here's my original reply:
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Where have you seen this???
You had to have been there - unpublished Streicher family letters.
UNPUBLISHED! In fact Mrs Steicher's talk was the first time they'd been presented to the public. Quite exciting in my book!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1552987 - 11/07/10 02:59 PM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: Mark_C]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: david_a
If I may presume to paraphrase landorrano: The physical act of playing this music is not difficult.

I think that added phrase removes the misunderstanding, and it was the way I originally read the post.

....and I can perhaps clarify the disagreement with this quote from Josef Hofmann:

"What makes you think we play with our hands?" smile
That can be seen either as an argument that the hands are not of paramount importance, or an argument that piano music should be performed without any use of the hands. If the former, then it is exactly the point that landorrano already made in the first place, and no explanation of anything is necessary since nobody disagreed even if they claimed to. If the latter... well, Hofmann's nose must have been pretty sore most of the time. smile
_________________________
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#1552990 - 11/07/10 03:01 PM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
There's no talking sense to some people. Here's my original reply:
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Where have you seen this???
You had to have been there - unpublished Streicher family letters.
UNPUBLISHED! In fact Mrs Steicher's talk was the first time they'd been presented to the public. Quite exciting in my book!

I don't think so, because it just about can't be true. smile

At least not as anything like a blanket principle.
Until it's someplace where we can look at it and see if it adds to what we already know and can imagine, the idea that "Chopin insisted his students learned without applying pedal (it would be added later)...." remains implausible.

I can imagine that sometimes, for some students, for some pieces....he might have said that. (Most teachers do.) But as any kind of uniform or common principle, be very skeptical about it -- and, IMO, don't be presenting it as a truth.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1552998 - 11/07/10 03:11 PM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: D4v3]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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If you don't want to give credence to Streicher's observations (Mikuli did) then you're the poorer for it. Here's her descendant:

But please do assume I'm 'skrewing' with you if you like, I care?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1553003 - 11/07/10 03:16 PM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Loc: New York
All I said is we need to see it before we decide that it adds to what we know or can imagine.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1553004 - 11/07/10 03:17 PM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: D4v3]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Perhaps there will be a Joyce Hatto CD bundled with the book when it comes out?

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#1553010 - 11/07/10 03:23 PM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: D4v3]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
I'm sure there'll be plenty of posters who are happy to accept that I read the passage with my own eyes. They may even be pleased I've shared something with them which may never otherwise have seen the light of day, but then perhaps you have your own evidence on Chopin's teaching in regard to pedaling you could share with us?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1553011 - 11/07/10 03:28 PM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
I'm sure there'll be plenty of posters who are happy to accept that I read the passage with my own eyes.....

You keep arguing against things that nobody said or thought.

Even I accept that you read it, but I would never assume that what someone made of something like this is what I or anyone else should make of it, especially since it seems to go against our basic sense of Chopin and his music (as it does). We need to see it, and judge what we might make of it. And yes indeed, I tend to think that what I would make of it is very different than what you did, and that I might feel you simply misunderstood it.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1553015 - 11/07/10 03:35 PM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: D4v3]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Who is this 'we'? Is that your 'folks' again? Or the Royal We?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1553030 - 11/07/10 03:48 PM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: D4v3]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Anyway, enough of all this - back to the OP. To recap: Considering that Chopin was a real Bachophile I think his view of how the pedal is used is relevant. If you study his early manuscripts and first editions you'll see he principally saw it as a loud pedal. In that sense I would have thought he'd use it in appropriate passages in Bach. Maybe the nay-sayers would like to support their own views on the topic with some evidence?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1553061 - 11/07/10 04:31 PM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: Mark_C]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2443
Loc: France
We want to know if Keyboardklutz is snobbyish or snobish ... and with a link to back it up.

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
... especially since it seems to go against our basic sense of Chopin and his music (as it does). We need to see it, and judge what we might make of it.


Speaking for us, what Klutz has said fits very well with our basic sense of Chopin.

To me it is clear that Klutz has been around some people who represent one of the lines of descent from Chopin.

EDIT:

To us it is clear that Klutz has been around some people who represent one of the lines of descent from Chopin.


Edited by landorrano (11/07/10 04:48 PM)

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#1553086 - 11/07/10 04:57 PM Re: What is the correct way to play Bach, musicaly? [Re: landorrano]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: landorrano
..EDIT:

To us it is clear that Klutz has been around some people who represent one of the lines of descent from Chopin.

How does that affect what I said in my last post? (which is what you were replying to)
_________________________
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