 |
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
|
|
43 members (1200s, busa, clothearednincompo, 36251, Davidnewmind, Dfrankjazz, brdwyguy, benkeys, Burkhard, 5 invisible),
1,135
guests, and
257
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,639
7000 Post Club Member
|
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,639 |
As Wavelength correctly notes, I often mention raising rates. This is not so you can line your pocket with gold coins and head off for the Riviera, but so you can run your business professionally, while still paying yourself a respectable salary and not make life miserable for your fellow teachers in the community.
All businesses have overhead, and overhead must be paid before the owner can take profits, otherwise, the business slowly fails, equipment deteriorates, etc. A piano teacher has three major elements of fixed overhead, two of which most never even take into account: rent, utilities, and maintenance. I don't want to get off topic too far here, so just let me suggest that a true professional would set aside each month a certain percentage of revenue for piano maintenance, upkeep and replacement. They might well have another set-aside for acquisition of new capital equipment.
While every instrument has a different touch and feel, and we have to get used to that, this is in no way the same, in any manner, as playing on out of tune, unregulated instruments.
Stepping down now from soap box.
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,391
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,391 |
I am not quite convinced that it is an issue of regulation (the OP didn't mention it being out of tune, I don't think), but just the feel of a different instrument.
I get so many comments about how my piano feels different from theirs, mostly from my adult students strangely enough (the kids don't seem to mind that my piano feels different from theirs, they accept that as fact). They use this as an excuse to why something doesn't sound just like it did at home, and well, it's not going to...ever.
I can tell when someone is struggling to get used to playing on an unfamiliar instrument and when someone is playing something that needs more work. Often when we are playing under pressure -- whether at a lesson or a performance -- we make mistakes that we don't in the comfort of our homes with our own instruments when no one is listening. These issues that come up, then, show us that perhaps you really didn't know that passage as well as you thought. Sure, some mistakes are just silly mistakes and should be ignored, but most have something to teach us.
Please don't get offended by your teacher trying to help you correct these mistakes that don't seem to happen at home, or blame it on her instrument. You are missing out on a huge opportunity to become a better musician.
private piano/voice teacher FT ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/gallery/42/thumbs/2529.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](https://forum.pianoworld.com//gallery/42/medium/9342.png)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 265
Full Member
|
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 265 |
By out of sync, I believe you mean out of regulation. That's when there's non-uniformity among the keys. Although it's true that you can adjust, you can never play your best, because your mind is engaged in compensating, which at the very least, is an unnecessary distraction. This hit it right on the head. I have to say I'm surprised at some of the posts with people getting on the defensive. I am paying top $$$ for these private lessons. She has them one day a week only. All I'm saying is that I'm surprised and a bit annoyed that the piano cannot be kept in shape. The action is clearly "funky" for lack of a better word. As I said, it's not simply different, as I've also played on different pianos. It's just not taken care of. The piano sits in the worst place, windows open, heater near it, etc. How can this be ignored? Boggles the mind.. Anyhow, the teacher is great and we get on real well. I'm not ignoring anything, but just pointed this out because it seems strange to be quite honest. I can see now that it's something that I better not bring up (as I originally thought)...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 265
Full Member
|
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 265 |
I guess its a lot better to have a great teacher with an awful piano than to have an awful teacher with a great piano...so consider yourself lucky !!
I agree, and I'm happy as she's very good and stresses the right things. She teaches piano performance and piano pedagogy at the conservatory so she's super-excellent. This is not a huge deal, but just something I found odd, didn't think it appropriate to bring up as I'm a newbie, but felt somehow bad for the piano itself and the condition of it. Furthermore, it DOES affect the playing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 265
Full Member
|
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 265 |
Being a professional who teaches at conservatory and also performs, I think she plays on so many pianos... There you have it. Stop making excuses. If she says it needs to be quieter in the left hand, then it needs to be quieter in the left hand. The only thing at stake when it is more difficult for you to execute it on her piano than on yours is your pride. It is good for your playing to experience different pianos. In the real world we get all sorts of pianos. You can't carry it with you. John mentioned raising rates (as he often does). Would you pay more for lessons on a piano that was regulated to your satisfaction? edit: My greatest teacher, who was nurturing and motivated by love, taught me on a crappy Samick. His response to my complaint about the action wasn't as sympathetic as this post. This is a joke of a post - sorry to say. I'm not making excuses for anything if you bother to read. Getting defensive for some reason? No pride here, but lots of ego over there it seems. Yes I know, Lang Lang also practiced on a piano with 10 strings broken....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 265
Full Member
|
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 265 |
I am not quite convinced that it is an issue of regulation (the OP didn't mention it being out of tune, I don't think), but just the feel of a different instrument.
I get so many comments about how my piano feels different from theirs, mostly from my adult students strangely enough (the kids don't seem to mind that my piano feels different from theirs, they accept that as fact). They use this as an excuse to why something doesn't sound just like it did at home, and well, it's not going to...ever.
I can tell when someone is struggling to get used to playing on an unfamiliar instrument and when someone is playing something that needs more work. Often when we are playing under pressure -- whether at a lesson or a performance -- we make mistakes that we don't in the comfort of our homes with our own instruments when no one is listening. These issues that come up, then, show us that perhaps you really didn't know that passage as well as you thought. Sure, some mistakes are just silly mistakes and should be ignored, but most have something to teach us.
Please don't get offended by your teacher trying to help you correct these mistakes that don't seem to happen at home, or blame it on her instrument. You are missing out on a huge opportunity to become a better musician. No, the action needs work. If I'm playing a fifth lets say, and the keys are not even, something is not right. And it's not helping me. Yeah, I understand nothing can be perfect, it's good to play pianos, and I can even understand her situation perhaps. I'm just surprised a bit at the carelessness. The most important part is focusing on the music and what comes out of the piano. Still, it COULD be a bit less frustrating.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,218
5000 Post Club Member
|
|
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,218 |
I gave my piano teacher a gift cert from my piano tech for his birthday (I did get a favorable rate, but still).
It was easier since there was no complaint about his piano.
It seems to me you should be saying these things to your teacher. It's a good sign that you're thinking about how you're going to put it, rather than just launching in. I assume you've already figured out that blaming the piano or accusing the teacher of being a wretched slob is not the path of persuasion. But talking about your difficulty in adjusting from one instrument to the other could be productive.
Clef
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 265
Full Member
|
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 265 |
I guess at the end of the day, some here are making it sound like I'm some annoying student. The truth is I'm nothing of the sort, and we get on real well. There is a REASON I have not brought this up. I posted here to see reactions from teachers. And based on that, I feel like I should not bring it up. My instincts were correct.
But thinking about it, it's an interesting thing. A teacher should take care of the instrument they teach on. Like others have pointed out, you are in a business (and I hate to use that word, but that's what it is), you are charging a lot of money, why is it so hard to keep your instrument in good condition? I don't get it. Where is the professional pride? What other business runs like this? I think it's deemed acceptable because they can "get away" with it. A student shouldn't dare question things. Keep your head down and just play. That's the impression I get from many of the replies here. And that's not a good thing.
In the end, like I said, it's not a huge deal. Of course I will adapt, but it's not ideal IMHO. Again, the important thing is that she's a real great teacher. And that we are on the same page. Just venting a bit...Of course I'm sensitive to how she'd react.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 265
Full Member
|
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 265 |
It seems to me you should be saying these things to your teacher. It's a good sign that you're thinking about how you're going to put it, rather than just launching in. I assume you've already figured out that blaming the piano or accusing the teacher of being a wretched slob is not the path of persuasion. But talking about your difficulty in adjusting from one instrument to the other could be productive.
Yes, it's just a fine line. I'm a sensitive person, and don't want to offend or whatever. I say this and that once in a while as I said, but it's difficult for me to say - look these keys are not working, something is wrong. Because she'll just play around it. Maybe even with all the money she charges, she really is not well off and doing it for the love of it. I don't know. All I know is that it does affect me. Not a huge lot, but a bit. It will improve. I also know that her method of teaching is superb, and that's the important thing. I don't want to risk offending someone. It's a fine line as I said. BECAUSE we get on so well, it makes it harder..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,391
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,391 |
By out of sync, I believe you mean out of regulation. That's when there's non-uniformity among the keys. Although it's true that you can adjust, you can never play your best, because your mind is engaged in compensating, which at the very least, is an unnecessary distraction. This hit it right on the head. I have to say I'm surprised at some of the posts with people getting on the defensive. I am paying top $$$ for these private lessons. She has them one day a week only. All I'm saying is that I'm surprised and a bit annoyed that the piano cannot be kept in shape. The action is clearly "funky" for lack of a better word. As I said, it's not simply different, as I've also played on different pianos. It's just not taken care of. The piano sits in the worst place, windows open, heater near it, etc. How can this be ignored? Boggles the mind.. Anyhow, the teacher is great and we get on real well. I'm not ignoring anything, but just pointed this out because it seems strange to be quite honest. I can see now that it's something that I better not bring up (as I originally thought)... Who is getting defensive? There are details in this post that were not previously given (i.e., the location, that you've played on different pianos and not had this trouble). We can only comment on the information as it is given. This is a *common* problem for adult students as I previously pointed out, and so you have to understand the skepticism. Also, myself and many teachers here have commented on the absolute need for teachers to do the best they can to keep their pianos in good condition.
Last edited by Morodiene; 11/05/10 11:58 AM.
private piano/voice teacher FT
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 340
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 340 |
This is a joke of a post - sorry to say. I'm not making excuses for anything if you bother to read. Getting defensive for some reason? No pride here, but lots of ego over there it seems. Yes I know, Lang Lang also practiced on a piano with 10 strings broken....
I'm open to the idea that I might be offensive. Defensive, not so much. If you think my post is motivated by a defensive ego, then you are misinterpreting it and rejecting information for the wrong reason. My apologies for the use of the word "excuses". When you said that you "screw up because the action is in bad shape," it sounded very much like an excuse. The fact remains that teachers hear that kind of complaint all the time. I hear it about my well-regulated modern Boston. I have made the same complaint to my teachers, some of whom were kind and patient about it, others less so. The message I got from those teachers was "practice more, and it will work out,"... and they were right. When you say she charges "top dollar", I think $90 or $125. If that's her rate it would be strange for her to have a poorly maintained piano indeed.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 265
Full Member
|
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 265 |
Fair enough, and I do understand. I understand also the skepticism from teachers, but I haven't said much to her as I've already described. I just found it strange and wasn't sure how/if I should approach it.
I do wish people these days (in most things) would give people the benefit of the doubt, but unfortunately the burden too often is for one to prove this and that. I think this has to do with the general pessimism going around these days, but I digress.
Yes, that is the rate, and I'm fine with it because as I said, she's very good. I'm sure she can easily play on a beat up spinet, so perhaps she's so used to it, nobody complains (for similar reasons to mine perhaps), so it just is what it is! Not a big point of focus for her. And of course in time everyone gets used to it, and it's not a bad idea. But curious still as you point out why some neglect their instruments. Artists!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678 |
Keystring, could you please tell us what would happen if you went to a violin lesson, and you tried to play on an out of tune violin or your teacher's instrument was out of tune, missing a string, etc.? John, I only saw this question today (on p. 1). Our instruments were always tuned by our teacher at the start of every lesson, because with temperature changes they go out of tune en route. Proper care was stressed: loosening the bow, wiping rosin off the body and strings. He would admonish us if it was not done. His own instrument showed signs of that care so he was a role model. Of course this does not cost money. However, the piano was probably tuned twice a year. Sometimes a few notes slipped a tad, and it was only an upright, but the action felt even - nothing weird. (I had a few piano lessons and so had a chance to play it.) As a student, I think a very perfect piano (exclusively) can almost be a handicap, because we do encounter all kinds of instruments.We are not there to give a perfect performance but to learn handle the instrument. However, if you have worked all week and the studio piano is truly poor (missing notes that you must circumvent? yegads!) that has to be disappointing and ummotivating. Can you really work with a teacher if you are playing two notes with one hand, and one of the keys sticks while the other doesn't?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,870
5000 Post Club Member
|
|
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,870 |
Interesting topic. I sometimes have similar issues.
I can't think of advantages of an irregular action for a pianist, neither a pro nor an amateur.
The amateur is just stuggling with it; and the pro will just learn bad habits from it (as he will learn how to compensate for a bad piano and those compensations will disturb his playing on the next piano).
Regulation just is part of obligatory maintenance, just like you need to replace strings on a violin or get new reeds for your clarinet.
So I think it is plain clear: if a piano is not ok your playing will suffer. Playing softer then will cause some notes to drop out. If your teacher's piano is that bad, I guess your teacher will accept that too if she asks you to play softer.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,218
5000 Post Club Member
|
|
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,218 |
Thinking it over... I've had a number of teachers over the years. Several of them have been very good; none has been perfect. I know one thing for sure: you can fix a piano a lot easier than you can fix a teacher.
The one who made the greatest fetish out of her perfect piano was the least satisfactory of the lot.
Count your blessings. Make the most of your time together and try to overlook the shortcomings; they all have something.
It's true of students as well, I would imagine.
Clef
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 340
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 340 |
The amateur is just stuggling with it; and the pro will just learn bad habits from it (as he will learn how to compensate for a bad piano and those compensations will disturb his playing on the next piano).
Regulation just is part of obligatory maintenance, just like you need to replace strings on a violin or get new reeds for your clarinet.
So I think it is plain clear: if a piano is not ok your playing will suffer. Playing softer then will cause some notes to drop out. If your teacher's piano is that bad, I guess your teacher will accept that too if she asks you to play softer.
In a perfect world where there is a perfect piano in every house, this would be the final word. But it's not like that unless you are rich, or have some kind of Steinway endorsement. And I'd bet that even Steinway artists find something to complain about in the action of pianos that they are provided. It has been said several times in this thread that playing an imperfect piano is bad for your playing. I say that the opposite is true, that playing a bad piano sometimes prepares you to play on all the imperfect instruments that you will encounter, including your own. I say that if you can only play on a perfect piano, then your skills are deficient. Because you can't expect to encounter perfect pianos-- that is reality. To complain about the poor pianos instead of increasing our level of playing is like complaining about the weather instead of wearing a sweater.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,949
8000 Post Club Member
|
|
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,949 |
It has been said several times in this thread that playing an imperfect piano is bad for your playing. I say that the opposite is true, that playing a bad piano sometimes prepares you to play on all the imperfect instruments that you will encounter, including your own. I don't follow your logic. If you are any decent at piano, then why would you even want to touch a bad piano?
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,639
7000 Post Club Member
|
|
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,639 |
Subtle but important differences. We're not discussing the imperfect, but the poorly maintained. All pianos are imperfect, some less so than others. The perfect piano has yet to be manufactured. Not only that, a "perfectly" in tune piano is purposely tuned out-of-tune. My technician tells me that a piano is a bundle of compromises.
The real issue for teachers is whether they recognize what constitutes a well-maintained instrument in the first place, and secondly, are they operating their teaching business in such a way as to fund necessary and periodic maintenance on their pianos so they are playing to the standard built-in by the manufacturer.
IMHO, to ask/demand students play on poorly maintained instruments is unconscionable. The teacher sets the standard for the student, and the standard such a teacher is setting is mediocrity.
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 340
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 340 |
It has been said several times in this thread that playing an imperfect piano is bad for your playing. I say that the opposite is true, that playing a bad piano sometimes prepares you to play on all the imperfect instruments that you will encounter, including your own. I don't follow your logic. If you are any decent at piano, then why would you even want to touch a bad piano? It's not that you would seek out bad pianos. It's that most of the pianos you will encounter, outside of your home, are not well-maintained. You can either say "I can't play that piano because the action is uneven," thereby limiting your musical experience to your living room or to an occasional recital-- or you can adapt and enjoy the pianos that you encounter in the wild, which are few enough as it is.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,305
6000 Post Club Member
|
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,305 |
It has been said several times in this thread that playing an imperfect piano is bad for your playing. I say that the opposite is true, that playing a bad piano sometimes prepares you to play on all the imperfect instruments that you will encounter, including your own. I don't follow your logic. If you are any decent at piano, then why would you even want to touch a bad piano? Plenty of reasons. [1] I play to earn my living and for many of the everyday things I do I have no say in the choice of piano. Refuse to accompany a singer for an exam because the piano is bad? Not me. But I'll probably put in a written complaint afterwards, and suggest they have their piano attended to. [2] If it's the only choice you have. If my circumstances were such that the only piano I had access to was bad, would I stop playing the piano? No way!! (But I agree with John's points about our responsibility to students)
Du holde Kunst...
|
|
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,385
Posts3,349,185
Members111,631
| |
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/RedDotMedalSmall.jpg)
