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That was very nice of you Time Flies.

BTW - it was very helpful to post this with warts and all (plain to hear from my ears) because I actually worked on eliminating the issues a problem at a time today.

Today we were working on Hemiolas, or counter-rhythm stuff. Really hard stuff. It's going to take me awhile. But something that Tristano was big on so when I started listening to more Tristano, I'm just amazed at the complex rhythmic stuff he was doing. And apparently this was were Bill Evans got a lot of this from.

This also means that accents of phrases are tied to the rhythm so the accents frame the rhythm. This explained a little bit of the complex accent patterns one finds in Tristano music.

His tune Line-Up though is mostly accented in groups of fours.

Anyone else ever worked on Hemiolas?

Looks like a new phase for me. I'm being invited to do a jam session. I'm really uncomfortable doing that because I don't really have much experience playing with a group. So I said I'd start off by watching first.

Today I just practiced for hours with by Realbook Iphone App and just did standards I haven't played much at all. I just counted down and sight-read the changes and I had no problem. And I realized that as long as the tempo wasn't too fast, you can throw me anything really from Dolphin Dance to Satin Doll to Giant Steps.

This BIAB practice really has given me some confidence. I want to check out the level of the players. I don't want to be called doing Giant Steps at 250.

Anyway, I played some stuff publicly and they thought I was good enough. I did some of the stuff I worked on on this thread like Giant Steps, Very Early, ATTYA, Nefertiti.

Anybody experienced in Jam sessions here?

There are vocalists and guitar players involved. Does this mean, I will be asked to play E blues for the guitar guys and play various standards in F#, and B or something? Or are these tunes in typical keys for vocalists?

I can transpose leadsheets on my Iphone RealBook App, but heck if I can play the melody once transposed...Just on Autumn Leaves alone I was getting messed up on the melody between Gm and Em versions.

I've just running every standard I know and suprisingly I can actually sight read the changes. So I'm not so concerned.

Also if there are vocalists, I presume the tempos will be pretty slow. However, I'm making sure to practice to 200bpm.

JW,

You're going to have fun playing with people. Jazz guitarists play the key that it's in in the book, but generally transpose easily.
Singers won't play in the realbook key, but they won't call Giant Steps either. If the singer wanted to play Over the rainbow in A, you could probably convince her to play it in Ab or Bb and make it much easier for you. Many tunes spread to a 11 interval, while many singers will have less than 2 octaves, so you'll just have to transpose.

I personally refuse to play with singers, just because I think it takes all the life out of improvisation. A sax will gladly put the horn down while others are soloing, singers seem to always have the instrument ready, and can't help using it. Unless they're good.
But frankly, even great singers bore me...

The real challenge is finding a spot for a piano, accompanying a singer, when you already have guitars involved. If you don't have a bass, you'll probably be playing low. If you do have a bass, then just play a few notes here and there.

One thing if you can get their set is to prepare intros. Arranging 4 or 8 measures of beautiful intro for the singer to come in.

Hi Knotty
I would like to start arranging this week, specifically Letter to Evan.
Do you follow any particular rules when composing intros ?

Hi JW
My former teacher will never invite a male/female singer. He said a singer necessitates a change in the entire dynamics of his band.

Knotty, there's someone organizing it and he's a pianist so I presume they are all told what their limits are. There's a time limit on the tune too. There's a bass player and drummer, which may be paid musicians when they can't get any.

I don't even know what tunes will be called just because vocalists tend to pick the more obscure ones. The instrumentalists will gravitate towards the AL, ATTYA, Blues type of stuff I'm sure. I've seen some of the sample tunes. I'm figuring no Giant Steps or bebop at 250bpm either. But I've been practicing so I could do it.

I can't transpose on the fly but I do have my Iphone/Ipad available to translate the leadsheet. Then I can sight read that. I like the idea that I might be able to move a tune up or down a step. Perhaps the vocalists have some experience with pianists so the negoatiated key is known to them.

Intro? Hard when you don't know what will be played. I didn't think about this but each tune will probably need a few bars of the ending. Darn, vocalists just make this complicated. You can practice the combo with Band-in-a-Box, but I never thought to practice accompaniment. This is like cramming for a test...

JW,

Good idea for you to sit and watch the 1st session if it sounds like they have their own thing going. Make note of what they play, what key, what tempo, and what they are looking for. Then go home and see what you can do.

>> Perhaps the vocalists have some experience with pianists so the negotiated key is known to them.
Probably. Then watch out for those where the singer starts without an intro. Often enough, they'll start in another key, and then you just gotta figure it out. Halfway through the tune, they'll notice they can't play a particular note, and transpose it back !

Cus,

>> Do you follow any particular rules when composing intros ?
You can simply play the last 8 measures of the tune. If you play them solo, the world is yours, if you have a bass, then you should write the bass part also. If you have a drummer, you don't need to write down but give simple direction. Arranging I think is a lot of fun because it's like making a sculpture, you can shape every little detail and make it sound awesome.
Write it down! or you will forget


>>I would like to start arranging this week, specifically Letter to Evan.
Do you mean arranging whole tunes, or just intros?
Whole tunes, I would not recommend Bill Evans. The changes are generally really out there. Very Early was written when he was 17 as an exercise in experimenting with structure. You can see that the key changes in most tunes from your book are wild. However, the arrangements by Andy Laverne are really great and will show you a lot of cool voicings, particularly drop voicings.

As far as arranging, I would pick a nice, lush ballad. Never Let me go, Smile, you stepped out, you and the night, What is love. All those are great standards. It's cool to pick standards with lots of 2 5 and see how you can shape them. Later, these movements you choose will come back naturally, and you will be able to stretch it a bit farther each time.


A few rules:
At first, use mostly drop 2 voicings, periodically switching back to rooted voicings. Don't change the melody too much.
There are 2 challenges at first:
- Creating enough movement from a leadsheet that generally doesn't have much. At first, keep this simple. A simple LH arpeggio can go a long way.
- Being able to play your arrangement. If you can't play it, it's no good.

Keep it simple, and use some of the technique you learned playing the written arrangements. For example, in the Bill Evans book, when the melody is 3 or 7, I often see it doubled an octave down, with a 3rd or 9th in the middle, while the LH plays a simple 1 5 way down. I love that effect, so I use it. Also, Bill uses a lot of parallel runs (in 3rd), they are generally simple to play, they sound awesome, they will give you some movement in the down time, and create a sort of climax on the note you reach. I like that effect too.
I love the sound of 4ths, so sometimes, I just keep a simple drop voicing in 4th and just let it ring.
Whatever you like.

DF in his Bill Evans masterclass gives a bunch of techniques that you can just use verbatim when arranging. Why not make that a challenge. Pick one technique, and apply it in a couple of places. Then another.

Ahh jams.
I participate in a couple on a regular basis, usually I come away thinking 'never again'. Though, now and again it's: wow! zabam! effing brilliant! That's what keeps me coming back.

It depends SO much on the maturity of the players (nothing to do with age or how fast someone plays or even how good they read).
And don't get me started on guitar players - say after me: 'a jam is NOT the place to practice my scales'.

As for letting singers participate, sure, bring them on!
It's all down to the experience of the singers, do they bring their own 'book' (songs they know, copies for the pianist/bass/etc, with, at least the chords in the correct keys, if they bring charts with melodies (in the correct keys), AND the lyrics raise your arms to the sky and shout halleluja!)
And as a pianist, it's great experience coming up with an intro, aiding the singer with the tune - on the other hand, one thing I do hate with jams is the: ' play an intro ' (ok I like the challenge, sometimes it's just to play the last 8 bars of the tune, or come up with something else) but then comes the dreaded: 'intro like the Miles/Bird/Coltrane/Ellington/Metheny version' somebody save me from The Jazz Police!
The Jazz Police turn up now and again at jams: 'that's not how it should sound', 'that's not how Keith/Bill/Brad/Jason/Red/etc plays the part!', 'on a IIb7b5 you should play a diminished dorian with a lydian turn . . .', and my favourite: 'there's NO major scales in a blues!!'.

But I am also guilty to my own pre-conceptions, one jam a couple of week ago, an elderly man stepped up during the break, 'can I join in? I have my horn with me', he looked like someone's uncle, an accountant to boot, his clothes were worse for wear, not only that, what he walked with a cane, 'a little shaky there mate!'.
Sure I said, ask the jam leader . . ho ho ho little did I know, so what do you want to play? Donna-Lee in Ab. Yeah right. But when his turn came, first solo on the tune, the two bar break at the end . . . ha! I fell of my chair!! Oh man, this dude played AND sounded like Bird, his tone was so powerful that it shook me into fight or flight mode, well all I could do was hang on to his shirt-tails and play my ass off!
Man did I get a lesson that gig. It turns out he WAS an accountant (retired) and used to play lead-alto in one of Sweden's foremost big bands in the 50's-60's, it was such a privilege and honour to play with him, and the stories he had to tell . . . that's why I like jams.

Quite a treat here guys getting all these tidbits! The good news is that I didn't have to search anyone by Craigslist and there's someone better than me setting rules.

Knotty, for tonight, I already told the organizer that I'm going to sit this one out to get a feel. I told him I have no experience with group playing (other than the electronic version). But we'll see how it goes. The lead guy is a PW Forumite (Piano Store mgr) and knows how and what I play. So he must think I can handle it. It could be also that the vocalists get their shot and the instrumentalists get an opportunity to do something different too.

Chris, actually I'm stressed with your "bring it on" comment on vocalists. I can't sight read so I'd be in shock if I had to read the notes. However, I can sight read changes. That's no problem. I just thought that the guitar player should play the melody anyway. Apparently there's always a guitar player because there are more of them than pianists.

The good news is that the invite was for players of all levels, so for that reason, I'm not expecting to be given stuff like Cherokee at 300. However, I also do expect that everyone would better than me.

Each player was supposed to rate himself at his instrument. The organizer, who I know, rated himself 7+ out of 10. Since I know how he plays, I just took that as a queue and rated myself 5/10. The other pianists rated themselves 5/10 too. As you would expect, the guitar players rated themselves 8/10

Maybe it's true, but if 10 is is Keith Jarrett, then I'd really be at -5. So I'm hoping 10 just means any random person who's competent.

BTW - Chris, you're so good with your sigs. I presume your new one means good melodies always have repetitions?

Cus, before you start thinking about arranging, you should really be good at two handed voicings (the one I discuss in the other thread). That's like a baseline. I can auto arrange a tune from that and then fine tune from there with various effects.

It's like a basic lesson in 'Orchestration'. Be careful with a focus on rootless or mid/upper register playing in solo piano arrangements. It doesn't sound interesting. You have to learn to spread out and the two-handed lessons promote that.

I worked for many years as a rehearsal pianist (theatre, shows, cabaret, ballet, dance, choir) as a sometime keyboardist with symphony orchestras as well as an accompanist (all manner of genres; chansons, chamber music, jazz, Brecht/Weil, folk songs, Brel, etc) ; playing any- and everything in every possible key.
Being on the job forced me to read (which wasn't and still isn't easy for me as I'm severely Dyslexic - yes, being dyslexic has a lot to do with the dis-ability in reading music . . ) I got the jobs based on the fact that I didn't mind playing any style, that I could improvise, they 'all' assumed that I could read, well I could so-so, but I was a better faker, I learnt how to read vertically and 'see' it as a chord, so I would quickly write the chord symbols, get the first couple of bars in my head and 1 2 3 , plod away, first verse; aha, it's that song, ok find the melody notes in my upper right hand fingers - keep the flow - second verse got some more notes in, and so on. Then home and practice. Next day, 'lets try it in another key' out with the pencil, sketch in the chords and off.

Performing with singers can be a blast! Be nice, unless they're really cute, they are usually treated like a potential problem so they need the support of a solid pianist.
No I don't mean play the melody along with the singer, but being able to give them their first note goes a long way.
By the second verse you will have 'got' the song, the score is just an aid, even if you can't read all the notes, you can still see, where the music goes up or down, and what words are there, it's just a graphic aid to seeing the song.


My current sig (glad you like it) is taken from Shelly Manne whom said: "We never play anything the same way once", when asked for a definition of jazz musicians.

Hi Knotty
Thanks for your cool advice. I will arrange Never Let Me Go and apply the Dave Frank masterclass principles one by one. Yes I love the drop 2 voicings but why did you say that focusing initially on drop 2 voicings was more important than focusing on rooted voicings ?

I meant that I wanted to arrange the whole Bill Evans chorus to Letter to Evan including adding an intro. But now I will do Never Let Me Go instead coz you said the changes were not as out.
But this week I will still record the Andy LaVerne arrangement of Letter to Evan and await your critique.

Hey JW
I’m really comfortable with the concept of drop 2 voicings now. I’m on your Lesson 2 and will start minor today.
I’m sure you will have such a cool time at your jam sess tonight.

Hey Chris
I was laughing real hard at your story of the old dude who turned out to be a cat.

>> Yes I love the drop 2 voicings but why did you say that focusing initially on drop 2 voicings was more important than focusing on rooted voicings ?

Did I say that really? Well I take it back then. First, drop 2s will often include the root, just not necessarily in the bass.
Second, what's cool about these voicings is that
- they are easy to play, 4 to 5 note chords
- they are nice and open
- they help with smooth voice leading

The only real rule with arrangements is that it has to sound good.

hehe Knots, maybe I misquoted you. Your exact words were "at first, use mostly drop 2 voicings, periodically switching back to rooted voicings"

OK so I just got through my first Jam session. I didn't list my name since I didn't know what's up.

There was a section at the beginning for pre-arranged ensemble playing and there the vocalists DID hand out the music that obviously no one has seen before. They had a bass player who could play anything so that was easy.

All the pianists I heard (except for the organizer) struggled a bit so it boosted my confidence a little. I thought we were all at a similar level. But what I didn't really understand was all the interaction between the players, so I just observed for a bit. After while the actual jam started and all the vocalists had a turn so it was just instrumental.

After everyone had multiple tries, I decided to jump in and play one just to get my feet wet. I did tell them I didn't play in a group before. And the rhythm section was cool so I just started some ATTYA. After the head, I relaxed a bit and the drummer was liking the solo so I started feeling good. But when I passed on the solo to the bassist, I started to waver on what to do next since I've never traded 4's, etc. So I took a second solo and discomfort started setting in.

In the end, it obviously reflected in the playing as my first solo was apparently better than the second one. Anyway, at my tension level, I was stiff and tense so I was probably at 40% of normal. But at least I got through it. Once I practice some of the signalling and listening for trading 4's and such, I think I'll relax a little.

As far as unknown charts, it did happen a lot with the many vocalists (5?). But all the changes were simple (Satin Doll level), so I just have to get some comfort and then it will not be so scary.

So all in all I did ok, which was a relief. Whew!

Knotty, I think it is definitely less stressful working with the same bunch from the beginning and learning together as you did. This kind of session where anyone can drop anything is more difficult. However, it's a good experience and next time, I should be able to feel more ocmfortable. Others said they didn't play at all the first time.

JW,

This actually sounds like a great set up where you're gonna learn a lot. This is organized by someone just to get people to play?
How often?

sounds really fun!
I don't suppose there's a way you could tape it ?

This is twice a month. There are some recordings being done so that may be possible to listen to. I think they stopped recording when I went up. They've been doing this for 3 months so far. There were several pro singers.

The musicians where supposedly skilled (music teachers), but to me they were definitely not pro, except for the bass and drums.

Once I figure out the Jam etiquette and style of communication, this is definitely within my level.

Just an example of the lack of clarity, I ended ATTYA as I normally would but the bass player continued with another ending (the two chord vamp). I was also reluctant to push my limits so I stayed to just a simple style and speed of playing (under my skill level).

I noticed that the rest of the group will run you over if you don't define details in advance. So that was probably the only intimidating factor. I certainly played well enough as I had made a friend (from the UK), who served as my music critic. He commented on my solo with specificity. He said "You're no Art Tatum but your solo was very musical and swinging..." and "Your first solo was better than the second one".

BTW - during my turn, they ran out of guitar players and vocalists so it was just a simple trio and I could have called any tune. So I think that's the best time to get experience so I don't have to worry about unknown charts and vocalists.