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#1557026 - 11/13/10 07:12 PM Am I Going Insane?
trillingadventurer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/08
Posts: 304
Loc: San Diego
Is it me or does the action eventually wear out on digital pianos? I have a couple of students with Yamamaha DPs and it seems like the feel is not as good as it used to be.
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M. Katchur

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#1557260 - 11/14/10 04:07 AM Re: Am I Going Insane? [Re: trillingadventurer]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Well, if you play extensively, then finally there will be some kind of wear out, but it's by far not as much as on an AP. We have a (I guess) >10 year old DP at our church, and while the keyboard is not as good as my CA63, it's still very playable. No service required during those >10years.
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<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1557338 - 11/14/10 08:20 AM Re: Am I Going Insane? [Re: trillingadventurer]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: trillingadventurer
...does the action eventually wear out on digital pianos?

You never know after # years, also depending on the intensity of use: a.f.a.i.k. only the Avantgrand and Kawai RM3 actions can be quite simply adjusted by a piano technician.
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#1557354 - 11/14/10 09:13 AM Re: Am I Going Insane? [Re: trillingadventurer]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
I dont know about the GHS.
For the Yamaha GH and GH3, there is no wear.
Also, there is nothing to adjust or regulate, there is no possibility to do that.

The forces depend on inertia and gravity only.
The bearings are constructed without clearing. There is no clearing that could increase because the components are pressed together with some tension, using a leaf spring.

The felts can compress and the fat can flow away.
With new felts and new fat it should play as new.
Fat is at the hey-hammer joint and at the front of the keys where they are horizontally guided. It happens that this becomes sticky and must be renewed,

If a key is taken out and improperly inserted, then the clearance can be much increased.

With decent workmanship abilities this can be at-home-DIY job.
Parts are available direct from Yamaha, at least in US.
Try authorized service partners in other countries.
The fat hoever is only availble in 5 litre containers and these are expensive. shocked I recommend motorbicycle chain fat as this is compatible with plastics and has adhesive additives that keep it in place.

Peter


Edited by hpeterh (11/14/10 09:49 AM)
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#1557398 - 11/14/10 10:27 AM Re: Am I Going Insane? [Re: trillingadventurer]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3666
Loc: North Carolina
There is no wear (on GH or GH3)? Hardly! Everything wears over time.

I had a sticky key on my two-year-old GH3. And there are countless online posts regarding keys needing replacement because of wear or breakage.

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#1557410 - 11/14/10 10:33 AM Re: Am I Going Insane? [Re: trillingadventurer]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Everything can fail. Breakage is not wear.
Of course there is wear on the bearings. But this wear does not increase the clearance an so the bearings stay like new through the whole lifetime.
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#1557431 - 11/14/10 10:45 AM Re: Am I Going Insane? [Re: hpeterh]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3666
Loc: North Carolina
Nope. Wear is wear. Breakage is often the result of wear.

My two-year-old is definitely not like-new. In another 5 years it will be worse.

The OP said ... "it seems like the feel is not as good as it used to be." Quite true.

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#1557447 - 11/14/10 11:06 AM Re: Am I Going Insane? [Re: trillingadventurer]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Whatever.
I readjusted and eased my Kawai and it plays better than new and better than a Yamaha ;-)


Edited by hpeterh (11/14/10 11:56 AM)
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#1557516 - 11/14/10 12:49 PM Re: Am I Going Insane? [Re: trillingadventurer]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2231
Loc: UK
You don't say what sort of DP and action?

A spring loaded action might loosen as the springs weaken over time.

A hammer action, might as hpeterh says suffer when the grease dries out, the felts or paper washers flatten and harden, the hinge pivots loosen and so on.

People on this forum have stated that many actions 'free up' after a while.

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#1557519 - 11/14/10 12:52 PM Re: Am I Going Insane? [Re: trillingadventurer]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: trillingadventurer
Is it me or does the action eventually wear out on digital pianos? I have a couple of students with Yamamaha DPs and it seems like the feel is not as good as it used to be.


How old are the pianos? I think the key action will last until the piano is so old the owner looses interest in it because the technology is dated.

Could it be that over the years the pianaist has improved and now notices things about the action that went un-noticed before.

HiFi stereo system have this same problem. They sound as good as new but the owner's ears, or rather ability to hear, improves as they learn to hear details and so there is a never ending upgrade cycle.



Edited by ChrisA (11/14/10 12:53 PM)

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#1557644 - 11/14/10 04:21 PM Re: Am I Going Insane? [Re: trillingadventurer]
LesCharles73 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 739
Loc: Denton Texas
I feel like the main contributors to a keybed feeling worse over time would be:

1.) Felt becoming worn out
2.) Loss of spring tension
3.) Loss of grease
And probably the biggest issue:
4.) Contaminants entering the keybed

I just recently took apart my Kurzweil K2500XS (Fatar action) because it has a few squeaky keys in the middle section, and a few others that 'clack' upon their return to the home position. This keyboard is probably a good 15 years old and has seen some pretty good use, but the main issues I found were dried up grease, flattened felts (causing the clacking sound), and a lot of dust and "fuzzies" stuck to the remaining grease on the hammers and keyguides. Once I get these things all straightened out, the action should be good as new. Even with these issues, it still feels comparable to my newer K2600X and 2004 SP88X.

Actual wear issues can happen where the hammer attaches to its pivot point, but this will generally be kept to a minimum as long as it is able to retain its lubrication and resist outside contaminants such as dust, hair, etc. I don't know of many actions that use actual bearings, but it certainly is a possibility. Any area that is subject to material to material contact and friction can eventually wear out, but it seems to be a very slow process. Usually it takes brute force to actually break an action and many years of hard playing to wear one out. My K2500XS is beginning to wear out, but it looks like I've caught it right in time.

I have seen that Yamahas sometimes use a leaf spring, but not all keyboards are made this way, so they will all fail in different ways. My Kurzweils have only one spring per key in their action. It's a very small coil spring that attaches the rear of the key to the keybed's chasis. When you press the key, the spring stretches very slightly. I'm not sure what its actual use is -- I removed the spring and played the key and experienced no difference in key feel or other physical characteristics, thus I don't expect these springs to fatigue any time soon.

If your keyboard now feels sluggish or inconsistent in resistance or return speed, you likely have lost some lubrication and you may also have some grime build up inside. Removing the keybed, stripping and replacing its grease and making sure everything is clean should have it back to at least the way it was when it was new. If you are noticing some side-to-side play, you might be getting to the point where you will need some parts because this is more of a wear-inducing clearance issue.
_________________________
Les C Deal





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#1557734 - 11/14/10 06:39 PM Re: Am I Going Insane? [Re: LesCharles73]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2231
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: LesCharles73


I just recently took apart my Kurzweil K2500XS (Fatar action) because it has a few squeaky keys in the middle section, and a few others that 'clack' upon their return to the home position. This keyboard is probably a good 15 years old and has seen some pretty good use, but the main issues I found were dried up grease, flattened felts (causing the clacking sound), and a lot of dust and "fuzzies" stuck to the remaining grease on the hammers and keyguides. Once I get these things all straightened out, the action should be good as new. Even with these issues, it still feels comparable to my newer K2600X and 2004 SP88X.



Yuk - what's a fuzzy? (Just been watching The Walking Dead, so I'm ready for the answer).

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#1557910 - 11/14/10 10:33 PM Re: Am I Going Insane? [Re: trillingadventurer]
LesCharles73 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 739
Loc: Denton Texas
Thankfully, I'm not entirely sure of what exactly goes in to the creation of a "fuzzy". If I did know, you'd probably never catch me dusting again.

My best guess would be a collection of textile and paper fibers, pet dander, human hair and dead skin cells. Yuck is right! No matter how well we clean, we are continuously shedding dead skin cells on to whatever we touch. This includes piano keys.
_________________________
Les C Deal





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