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#1560512 - 11/19/10 12:39 AM double-sharps
T'sMom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 227
I think I got myself mixed up. A double sharp raises a note one whole step. But what if the piece is in a key where the note already sharped. For example F double sharp in the key of C# minor-- is the F then played as a G or as a G sharp?

Thank you!

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#1560515 - 11/19/10 12:50 AM Re: double-sharps [Re: T'sMom]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
Any accidental marked on a note is always taken literally as it stands, and not added on to what the key signature already said. So F double sharp is always played on the G key regardless of anything else.
_________________________
(I'm a piano teacher.)

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#1560738 - 11/19/10 12:24 PM Re: double-sharps [Re: david_a]
T'sMom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 227
Thank you!

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#1561117 - 11/20/10 07:08 AM Re: double-sharps [Re: david_a]
Cobra1365 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/11/10
Posts: 294
Loc: Delaware
Which is one thing that frustrates me to no end when reading music. If they have to double sharp an F to be played on the G, why didnt they write it as a G? crazy
_________________________
Started Playing May 2010 at 51 yrs old, Some Self Learning, Lessons X 3yrs

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#1561120 - 11/20/10 07:14 AM Re: double-sharps [Re: Cobra1365]
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
Originally Posted By: Cobra1365
Which is one thing that frustrates me to no end when reading music. If they have to double sharp an F to be played on the G, why didnt they write it as a G? crazy


Most likely because G is sharp in the key signature.
_________________________
Joe Whitehead ------ Texas Trax

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#1561121 - 11/20/10 07:14 AM Re: double-sharps [Re: Cobra1365]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Cobra1365
Which is one thing that frustrates me to no end when reading music. If they have to double sharp an F to be played on the G, why didnt they write it as a G? crazy

The G was taken (usually).

Edit: StudioJoe explains it much better smile


Edited by Canonie (11/20/10 07:16 AM)
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1561129 - 11/20/10 07:38 AM Re: double-sharps [Re: T'sMom]
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
Ha-ha, Canonie, both our posts are time marked at 6:14 AM. I just clicked the reply button a few millisecs. before you.

Thanks for the plug in yur edit.
_________________________
Joe Whitehead ------ Texas Trax

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#1561292 - 11/20/10 02:49 PM Re: double-sharps [Re: Cobra1365]
T'sMom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 227
You know, I understand the theory, that certain notes don't exist in certain keys.

However, while reading along and playing, it is much easier for me to hit G-natural (g note with a natural) than F ##. I write in a big fat "G" by the note. Same for B# = C.

So can anyone guess what I'm working on, key of C# minor with a lot of f double sharps and b#'s in it? One of those famous pieces that is easy to play adequately and hard to play really beautifully...

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#1561399 - 11/20/10 06:56 PM Re: double-sharps [Re: T'sMom]
Andy Platt Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2424
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: T'sMom
So can anyone guess what I'm working on, key of C# minor with a lot of f double sharps and b#'s in it? One of those famous pieces that is easy to play adequately and hard to play really beautifully...


The only thing I could think of is Rachmaninoff's Prelude in C# minor ... but if it's that you must be a much better player than me because "easy to play ..."?!
_________________________
  • Schumann - Ende vom Lied, Opus 12.8
  • Haydn - Sonata in Gm, Hob. XVI/44

Kawai K3

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#1561402 - 11/20/10 07:03 PM Re: double-sharps [Re: T'sMom]
Frozenicicles Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/09
Posts: 1324
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: T'sMom
You know, I understand the theory, that certain notes don't exist in certain keys.

However, while reading along and playing, it is much easier for me to hit G-natural (g note with a natural) than F ##. I write in a big fat "G" by the note. Same for B# = C.

So can anyone guess what I'm working on, key of C# minor with a lot of f double sharps and b#'s in it? One of those famous pieces that is easy to play adequately and hard to play really beautifully...

Chopin's posthumous nocturne?

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#1561422 - 11/20/10 07:57 PM Re: double-sharps [Re: Cobra1365]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
Originally Posted By: Cobra1365
Which is one thing that frustrates me to no end when reading music. If they have to double sharp an F to be played on the G, why didnt they write it as a G? crazy
I don't know you. But let's imagine that your name is George. (Go with me here for a second.) smile

If I'm writing a paper and I spell your name Jorj, and then I pay you to edit the paper, will you correct the spelling of your name, or not? Why? smile
_________________________
(I'm a piano teacher.)

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#1561592 - 11/21/10 04:51 AM Re: double-sharps [Re: david_a]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2472
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: david_a
I don't know you. But let's imagine that your name is George. (Go with me here for a second.) smile

If I'm writing a paper and I spell your name Jorj, and then I pay you to edit the paper, will you correct the spelling of your name, or not? Why? smile


Let's just imagine that what you wrote makes any sense.

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#1561625 - 11/21/10 07:20 AM Re: double-sharps [Re: david_a]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: david_a
Originally Posted By: Cobra1365
Which is one thing that frustrates me to no end when reading music. If they have to double sharp an F to be played on the G, why didnt they write it as a G? crazy
I don't know you. But let's imagine that your name is George. (Go with me here for a second.) smile

If I'm writing a paper and I spell your name Jorj, and then I pay you to edit the paper, will you correct the spelling of your name, or not? Why? smile

I think this is an excellent response.

my stick with it, think of it as F double sharp, B sharp or whatever, and eventually it becomes easier because it begins to look and sound right.
Oh and good luck with Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, First Movement

I'm feeling confident
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1561659 - 11/21/10 09:41 AM Re: double-sharps [Re: T'sMom]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2472
Loc: France
It must be me, then, who is double-flat.

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#1561722 - 11/21/10 12:30 PM Re: double-sharps [Re: Canonie]
T'sMom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 227
Originally Posted By: Canonie

Oh and good luck with Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, First Movement

I'm feeling confident



You guessed it! I recently heard a little kid play it at a recital, technically well but not really musically. I thought that if she could play it I could probably learn it. Always thought it was out of my league but once I looked at it I realized I could do it. Now I'm obsessed (just a few days into it at this point... have a lesson tomorrow).

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#1561741 - 11/21/10 01:04 PM Re: double-sharps [Re: T'sMom]
Todd Vance Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 50
Loc: Bowie, MD
some "simplified" music has the F## made into G, but using F## instead of G conveys additional info to the musician---the notes are be part of a scale or chord of a given key. That comes under, as a conductor way back in HS told the kids, "reading music, not just notes" (though it took a while to understand what he meant by that).
_________________________
Todd

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#1561893 - 11/21/10 06:02 PM Re: double-sharps [Re: T'sMom]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Haha, I knew it! That was one of the first pieces I was addicted to when I took up piano as an adult. I'd "played" the first page as a teen, so re-found the music, bought the cheap DP and off I went. Fortunately my teacher had me learning lots of grade one and two pieces - to learn how piano is Actually played. But he also patiently took me through the moonlight first for my pleasure.
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1561991 - 11/21/10 09:28 PM Re: double-sharps [Re: Canonie]
T'sMom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 227
It's an addicting piece. By the second line it's really beautiful and dramatic. I did a rough sight read through it pretty easily but of course balancing the voices is a significant challenge (at least for me). I can't wait to hear what my teacher has to say tomorrow, I'm sure he'll chop me down a little -- then rebuild ...

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