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#156254 - 02/17/07 10:21 AM "My piano is too loud..."
Derick II Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 1426
Loc: New York
there are a hundred threads about pianos being too loud.

MY PIANO IS NOT TOO LOUD!!! Not in the least. Not at all. Period.

I hear of people playing with the lid closed (why bother having a grand?), throwing rugs everywhere (I have hardwood floors) and a gigantic piano. Unless I really pound away, it is not too loud by any stretch of the imagination.

My hearing is "excellent" according to a recent test I had.

Maybe you guys all need to have your pianos voice down. WAY DOWN. So they sound like piano forte instead of forte forte!

Derick (No stars and proud of it!)
_________________________
"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."[/b] - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)


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#156255 - 02/17/07 11:19 AM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19094
Loc: New York City
But some people will have their piano in a room *much* smaller than the one your piano is in.

I have a new Mason BB in a room 12'by 18'by 8' which opens into a smaller dining area/kitchen. I have wall to wall carpeting and a small oriental rug under the piano(although I really don't need it).

Some knowledgable people thought this size piano might be too big for such a small room but amazingly it seems actually softer than the Mason A I had previously. I can play with the lid up whereas with the model A I never played with the lid up(just with the lid folded back).

I think there is only so much that a piano can be voiced down for volume without negatively affecting the tone.

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#156256 - 02/17/07 11:34 AM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
Brick Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/06
Posts: 373
It's egocentric and makes no sense to take one's personal experience and assume it applies to everyone. The fact is, due to a myriad of factors that are difficult to know in advance, some people will have loudness problems with their pianos and other people won't. And it only sometimes has to do with bad voicing. What's the point of trying to invalidate other people's experience?

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#156257 - 02/17/07 11:46 AM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
John Perkins Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/20/06
Posts: 136
My Estonia definitely seemed too "loud" (and muddy) in a certain range before it was re-voiced. And the problem was not that it needed voicing down, it needed voicing UP.

I'm sure if I had gotten out a sound meter, the actual decibel level is nearly the same. But it certainly does not feel uncomfortable to my ears any more.

Loudness and perception of loudness are two different things. For instance, all badly done rap music sounds way too loud to me, even when I hear it coming from someone's iPod headphones on a quiet elevator. ;-)

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#156258 - 02/17/07 11:57 AM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
Kingfrog777 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/07
Posts: 243
"Why buy a Grand if you are going to keep the lid closed is a stretch of logic" and common sense at best.

Why buy a 1000 Watt receiver if you are not going to turn it up all the way?

Why buy a Corvette if you are going to keep the speed limit?


Most people buy pianos grand or not to play them. Not to simulate playing with the London Philharmonic every time they play. For many, pianos are not a personal statement. Just a musical instrument.
_________________________
Piano, pro audio,guitar and MI sales.
Yamaha, Pearl River, Bergmann, Remington.

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#156259 - 02/17/07 11:57 AM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
Starting Over Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 1290
Loc: Toronto
My Estonia is not too loud when played with the lid open but I often play it with the lid closed. As to your question "Why bother having a grand?" - well, maybe because, even with the lid closed, it still sounds about 100 times nicer than my U1 which, by the way, IS too LOUD, no matter what I do. As John says, loudness and perception of loudness are different. Because the Yami is so ear gratingly bright, it sounds loud even when it isn't.
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#156260 - 02/17/07 01:05 PM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10335
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
I agree with all the responses.

Also, many people complain a piano is too loud when in fact it is too bright. They mistake a more piercing, "penetrating" sound for higher volume.

IMHO, the best investment one can make in a decent piano is a good voicing. I've been in the business all my life and I am STILL impressed by what voicing can often accomplish.
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My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#156261 - 02/17/07 01:15 PM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
You might all participate in the thread which I launched today "Still any grands for domestic use???": http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/17192.html

schwammerl.

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#156262 - 02/17/07 02:22 PM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
Derick II Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 1426
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Cohen:
I agree with all the responses.

Also, many people complain a piano is too loud when in fact it is too bright. They mistake a more piercing, "penetrating" sound for higher volume.

IMHO, the best investment one can make in a decent piano is a good voicing. I've been in the business all my life and I am STILL impressed by what voicing can often accomplish. [/b]
That's good, then you must agree with my thread starter since I said the same thing.

My room is 18x20, pretty small for a 9'6" piano.

The reason why I made this "presumptuous" post is because I play a lot of pianos in a lot of different settings 99% of them are too loud for me. Since people are playing with their pianos all closed up and throwing sound absorbers all over, and since EVERYONE here KNOWS (haha) how SUPER-loud a large piano HAS to be (ROTFLMAO), I thought I'd let you in on a little secret. Voice your piano like a piano instead of a boom box.

Derick
_________________________
"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."[/b] - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)


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#156263 - 02/17/07 02:22 PM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
mdsdurango Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/04
Posts: 1755
Loc: Durango Colorado
Another component of "too loud" is hearing loss. Hearing loss can cause the ear to hurt with certain sounds - especially loud and penatrating sounds. I actually prefer to play my piano wearing my hearing aids as it does not hurt my ears as it can when I do not wear them. Clarity of sound can and does make a big difference. I bought way better stereo speakers last year and I can turn these up considerably more than I could my old speakers with out hurting my ears.
Dericks Bosie I am sure is one sweet and clear sounding piano allowing for greater volume without discomfort.
Just thoughts.
Mike
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#156264 - 02/17/07 02:30 PM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3249
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
There are a lot of pianos that, from the factory, based on a combination of design and workmanship, are too loud. Regardless of how skilled the player is. There is too much sound coming out based on the amount of energy being put in by the pianist, when the pianist is attempting to play softly, and doing so with a skillful technique.

An interesting thing is that these very same pianos often do not have a big top range of volume either. When the same skillful pianist attempts to bring a large quantity of sound out, the sound hits a ceiling.

Voicing can help, but not necessarily solve these problems. Voicing is usually recommended because it is the only practical approach to try and help.
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keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#156265 - 02/17/07 02:31 PM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
ftp Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 2365
Loc: Philadelphia
The hearing loss thing really mystifies me. Can a piano really do damage-it just doesn't seem to be loud enough to be bothersome much less damaging. (Wife would disagree when she is trying to sleep) Our grand is in a room with hardware floors untreated windows and generally not much to absorb sound. I sit in the room with the lid up as both kids practice and obviously as I practice.

I never considered the loudness a variable, should I?

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#156266 - 02/17/07 02:39 PM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19094
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick II:

My room is 18x20, pretty small for a 9'6" piano.
Derick [/b]
What is the height of the room? I think I recall some views of your piano that indicate your room has ceilings greater than 8'.

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#156267 - 02/17/07 02:47 PM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
mdsdurango Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/04
Posts: 1755
Loc: Durango Colorado
FTP,
I don't think that I have lost any hearing from piano play. My hearing loss was accumulated over many years of construction and rock & roll. My point was that with existing hearing loss certain sounds can sound louder (and hurtful) where as someone without hearing damage might not find the same sound offensive.
I play my 7 footer with out concern for my hearing. I absolutly love to hear other pianists crank on my piano and I do not find that offensive.
My girlfriend however, likes to leave the house during my practice time - for what ever reason.

Mike
_________________________
WHAT???????
Yamaha S6, U5C, P120
http://michaelstith.com

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#156268 - 02/17/07 03:01 PM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
Derick II Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 1426
Loc: New York
Pianoloverus, the ceilings are cathedral starting at 9' and end at 14'.

I would agree that many of the tier III pianos in particular usually have one volume level. Voicing will lower the volume level or "piercing" level of the sound, but that limits the volume.

However there are many tier II and some tier I pianos that I would think (?) should be able to be played with greater range of volume, yet they sit on many showroom floors at explosive sound levels.

I think many people are impressed by a ton of volume and fail to see the beauty in a quieter instrument.

Derick
_________________________
"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."[/b] - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)


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#156269 - 02/17/07 05:10 PM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1693
Loc: Massachusetts
 Quote:
Originally posted by Keith D Kerman:
There are a lot of pianos that, from the factory, based on a combination of design and workmanship, are too loud. Regardless of how skilled the player is. There is too much sound coming out based on the amount of energy being put in by the pianist, when the pianist is attempting to play softly, and doing so with a skillful technique. [/b]
Thanks you, Keith, for the truth. (I knew it wasn't just MY ears.)

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#156270 - 02/17/07 07:24 PM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
George K Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 999
Loc: The Midwest
Personal observation:

My new Bohemia 185 is at the end of a room that is 16 X 25 feet. There are 9 foot ceilings, and the room has an area rug that covers almost the entire area. From where I sit, playing at the levels I play, I can barely hear the difference between playing at short-stick and full-stick. However, if my wife is in our bedroom, directly above the living room, and the piano is at full-stick, she says that it sounds like the piano is in the room with her. This is in a 100 year old house with plaster walls/ceilings on metal lath.

On the other hand, with the lid down, there are some sounds that just bother my ears - I assume that there must be some harmonic that is bouncing off the walls.

Is my piano too loud? Only when I want it to be. This piano is teaching me all about sublty in playing, and how to ask it to whisper.
_________________________

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#156271 - 02/17/07 10:54 PM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
brazospiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/14/06
Posts: 307
Loc: College Station, TX
Sounds kind of unlikely to me that a piano could be so loud as to damage someone's hearing.

Has anyone bothered to measure the decibel levels? Sustained noise / music levels above 90dB and any levels above 100dB are the threshold levels where permanent hearing damage becomes possible.
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Wade

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#156272 - 02/17/07 11:17 PM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
CozyWriter Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 789
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
The player also does not have a reliable perception of how loud the piano is because of where they are sitting: right where all the sound comes out (assuming the lid is open at all.)

I had a devil of a problem regulating this when I played strings: one plays the cello with the left ear just above the sound box, with the instrument vibrating against one's chest. To me it sounded like a (well tuned) locomotive. Yet my teacher (sitting across the room) kept screaming "what are you afraid of? I can't hear you!" because I was toning down the sound based on what I heard, inches from my head.

Since you failed to mention failing eyesight and the age'd (ahem), I have to sit with the desk pushed as far away from me as possible (something that is IMpossible to do on a vertical - my arms are only so long!) And doing so, then there's another sound gap right above the keyboard where the sound comes right up in my (squinting) face.

Youth is wasted on the young, and so probably are sliding music desks!
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#156273 - 02/18/07 12:32 AM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
Captain Obvious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/06
Posts: 182
I played a Yamaha today that was voiced down so much that I'd have to say it was a piano-metzoforte. It was really overdone in my opinion. I had to play forcefully with my right hand, and softly with the left or the melody was lost. It had almost no real range of expression unless you were in the bass section.

Which brings up what I think is a good point. How do you convey what you are looking for? I mean, who DOESN'T want the greatest range of expression the instrument can offer?

If I had plonked down a lot of money for a piano, I'd be afraid to get it voiced for fear it may not turn out like I want. Isn't it kinda like going in and trying to explain exactly how you want your haircut? If they get it wrong, you have to wait for it to grow out (ie the hammers to compress again over the next couple years).

How much can you soften up the sound before you're taking away from the dynamic range of the instrument?

I'm rambling now, but I've noticed that some of the new Yamahas are voiced softer. I saw a new C6 right next to an older C7 today. The C6 is voiced softer, but I think it sounds worse. The C7 is more lively. Yet, it is very easy to play quietly with expression on the C7.

That leads me to conclude that voicing down, especially from the factory, is sometimes a cheap attempt at circumventing a time consuming proper regulation.

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#156274 - 02/18/07 12:41 AM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
ChatNoir Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 1469
Loc: Encino, California
Let it be known that I am the first person to run away from a party when the music reaches the level where you have to talk really, really loud to be heard.
But my Estonia 168 never sounds too loud in my 900 square foot house. (With 9 foot ceilings) Maybe because I only play the music that I like on it. ;\)
_________________________
Some men are music lovers. Others make love without it.

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#156275 - 02/18/07 08:30 AM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
oldcars Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 253
Loc: Philly burbs
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kingfrog777:
"Why buy a Grand if you are going to keep the lid closed is a stretch of logic" and common sense at best.

Why buy a 1000 Watt receiver if you are not going to turn it up all the way?

Why buy a Corvette if you are going to keep the speed limit?

[/b]
Two questions to which I have extensive experience:
a) Audiophiles know that increased wattage in a stereo system does not necessarily mean louder music. Simply, increased wattage, in some stereo systems, improves the "head room." This would mean that the system has enough power to be heard through large listening spaces, but more importantly, it has the power to provide more fidelity so one can hear "more" music at lower volumes.
If, on the other hand, the speakers of the stereo system are very efficient, then it is possible to get great fidelity with very low wattage.
As an example, I have five foot high horn speakers (AvantGarde Duos), which look intimidating, but are powered by a mere 15 watt tube amplifier. Here is a situation that large speakers do not necessarily mean loud music. Even with 15 watts, the system has the power to entertain my neighbors, should I want, but for the most part, the volume is way down and only heard in the room that they are in.
Same experience with the piano. I, too, keep the lid up and should I desire, I can play the piano so softly that people in the other room will not be bothered at all. On the other hand, it can roar if I want it to.
The parallel is that horn speakers and the piano's sound board/case are "passive" in sound amplification. Here, the design of the speaker, as the sound board in a piano, are critical for maximizing and faithfully projecting sound. You can have a great CD player and a wonderfully mastered music CD, but the sound coming from inefficient and inexpensive speakers will not sound as good as the sound coming from more efficient speakers.
Same as with pianos.

b) Corvettes - My area of expertise. If one was to only want to drive within speed limits, (which I do), as do most responsible drivers, than any car with low horsepower car would suffice.
If a car was to be only a means of transportation to get you from point a to point b, then any car with a reliable engine would suffice.
But cars, especially those with great horsepower, as with Corvettes, Porsches or Mustangs, possess greater torque, better brakes, better handling and better performance than others.
One can still enjoy the power and all the inherent qualities of 500 horsepower and still drive the car legally.
If you have ever driven a Corvette, you'll immediately know what I mean. It is an eye opening experience, same as sitting down and playing a great grand piano.
It may not be for you, but I've owned/traded a dozen corvettes over the years (some of you may recognize me from the corvette forums) and to me, my Z06 is one of the most thrilling and satisfying cars that I have ever owned. And, knock wood, I have never received a speeding ticket or violation in over 40 years of driving.
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#156276 - 02/18/07 09:25 AM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3403
Loc: US
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick II:

I think many people are impressed by a ton of volume and fail to see the beauty in a quieter instrument.

Derick [/b]
good point-- I think a lot of shoppers, particularly those new to playing or buying pianos, mistake "in your face" volume for dynamic range and power. If louder sells more, that's what will show up on the sales floor.

Sophia

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#156277 - 02/18/07 12:53 PM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
oldcars

I could not agree more with your description of audiophile high quality high wattage amplifiers an headroom[/b] . The parallel with a concert grand or a high quality grand indeed applies.

With the smaller below 6 ft grands I have however often the impression that there is no headroom[/b] at all. They almost go loud from the beginning and ultimately end up producing a lot of inharmonics finally.
I would like to see a small quality grand have sufficient "headroom" in a small listening place - not being capable of doing that in a large one - a listening space for which it should be designed for. Compare this to a low wattage (e.g. tube-)amplifier coupled to high efficient speakers.

That is also the issue I tried to put forward in another thread: http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/17192.html

schammerl.

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#156278 - 02/18/07 10:50 PM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
ryan.greene Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 159
Loc: Dayton, OH
Just from experience, I have a 1972 Yamaha C3 and when I got it, I loved it but it was bright, which made the noise very loud and piercing. I had it slightly voiced down and it made all the difference in the world.

If that isn't your fancy you can consider building or buying some sound absorbers, people have had great results with those too.

Don't result to keeping the lid closed, you deserve the kind of sound you get with the lid open!
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#156279 - 02/18/07 11:18 PM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3158
Poor quality of sound is often misunderstood as "too loud".

I once thought that my piano, a large German upright that has a thundering bass and as much power as any 6 foot grand I have encountered, was too loud.

I then started following the posts on this forum concerning sound absorbtion materials, and began studying that subject.

I ended up putting 2 inches of sound-absorbing specific rigid fiberglass, wrapped in fabric, between the wall and the back of the piano. This was because the sound was going from the soundboard, hitting the plaster wall behind, and bouncing back, re-energizing the soundboard.

The result is a much cleaner and purer sound, without all the echoes and other assorted maladies associated with ricocheting sound waves.

The piano now plays both quiet and loud as necessary, and sounds far better.
_________________________
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#156280 - 02/19/07 02:49 PM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
Jan-Erik Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/18/05
Posts: 1302
Loc: Finland
For the first time in my life I suffered from a piano that is too loud when I had got my new upright in my small flat. Notice - not when playing FF but when trying to play ppp.

I think I liked the piano when I tried it at the factory, but at such events your judgements can be influenced by secondary things too.

The first thing I made was putting some absorbing material on the wall behind the piano. But I do not like to turn the living room into a recording studio, so the accoustics might still be too hard.

Anyhow, I have the feeling that the major cause lies in the action, which makes pianissimo playing very tricky: When playing with a light touch you easily loose the tone completely or it comes out too hard.

The left pedal helps me in achieving the desired pianissimo level (it also makes the touch lighter, but increases the lost motion - upright action - you know). So I even stronger believe that what is wrong is not the piano itself, but the action.

I have had several techs to evaluate my upright, including one famous concert tuner. He evened slightly the voicing, but said that there is not much else to do if the piano feels too loud than to look for another piano, more suitable for my circumstances.

Two techs (completely independent of dealers) recommended me to try the new Yamaha U1, the action of which is held as kind of benchmark among uprights. One of them frankly said my piano's action was not the best design (the parts imcluding hammers are from a recognized factory, however). It was very discouraging to hear....


IMO the action should be light but the response must not be too sensitive at low sound levels. In this respect some piano manufacturers has succeded better that other in choosing key lengths, fulcrum points, lever ratios, and hammer weight. Here I do not want to repeat what is said about brand X, Y, and Z, but it is obvious that you can find more general agreement of this feature of a piano, than there are personal deverging preferences.

Being an amateur carpenter, I know that which a heavy hammer I cannot dose the hitting force as easily as with a small hammer. So hammer weight is certainly an important factor besides the felt compression. I have thought of lighter hammers etc but this is already an expensive measure.

Like many horsepowers in a car are no good if you have not good brakes, suspension, clutch and tyres, the great sound of a piano does not help if the the controlling devices - action and pedals are not top quality. Contrary - on a piano with less power and dynamics, you can perform pieces more musically, once the action has a normal response.

Last week-end I have played on two other uprights. One felt normal, but the other, a small Yamaha (b1-series) with Silent system, was also slightly too loud, when you tried to play softly, but that was perhaps due to the quite bright tone and to the silents system, affecting the regulation of the release point. The maximal volume was surprisingly big, and sufficient for the room in question, but the sound turned harsh at FF

From these, and from many other experiences I am bound to think a good action design and perfect regulation is an often overlooked factor when trying to solve the problem of too loud pianos.

And I would very much appreciate learning to know what parameters are correlated to which kind of action response. Although the voicing is also influencing the response and the touch feel, I believe a bigger contribution comes from the purely mechanical elements.

And these parameters could be presented together with other facts (some of them of very little informative value) like number of strings, breaking points, free string length, soundboard surface, cabinet construction, patented and unique (?) constructional details.

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#156281 - 02/20/07 10:53 AM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
LJC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1502
Loc: New York
I like the lid all the way up but not because its louder its just that the sound seems clearer. As for the volumn itself well theres a ton of it and it can cut throught the entire house in a way that my previous piano a C3 could not, even with its brighter tone. I have since closed off the room with French doors and its now about the size of Derricks but without the high ceilings. I believe the wall to wall is a must for a concert grand in this room however I am already thinking of building a piano room. It would be as large as possible with wood floors high ceilings and plaster walls and ceilings. Only then I believe I would get the true concert sound my piano was designed to give.

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#156282 - 02/21/07 08:33 PM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
Jeanne W Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 1240
Loc: New England
food for thought...

6'4" steinway a3
livingroom 32 x 16
ceilings 8ft
glass french doors - 2 pair (actually 4 pair, but 2 pair usually have drapes drawn on them.)
2 oriental rugs 8 1/2 x 11, 5x8
sofa, chairs, bookcases, etc. etc.

(you can see my set up in the link to my piano arrival thread at the bottom of this post.)

i just played, with the lid down, an arpeggio from low octave to the top, as loudly as i could, louder than i normally play...

it came in at 92 decibels on weighted a setting of the decibel meter i have.

yes, i play with the lid shut. i do feel like it's too loud for my ears if i play with the lid open.

you buy a larger piano for it's more resonant tonal qualities, then wind up playing it with the lid shut. yes, it's a shame to play a piano that way. it's an imperfect world.

jeanne w

p.s. remember some pianos have more "biting" tonal quality than others also, or more of a roar or resonance of some sort that will come across more loudly.
_________________________
Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
My Piano Delivery Thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/8776.html#000000

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#156283 - 02/21/07 09:09 PM Re: "My piano is too loud..."
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19094
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeanne W:
food for thought...

yes, i play with the lid shut. i do feel like it's too loud for my ears if i play with the lid open.
[/b]
By "lid shut" do you mean completely closed or the lid all the way down(no lid stick) but with the hinge folded back?

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