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#1563844 - 11/25/10 06:45 AM Re: No You Can't [Re: RonaldSteinway]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
Albert Einstein: Genius is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration.
I beg to differ. Your IQ is genetically predetermined, as is almost everything else - whether you're extroverted, good at languages, good-natured or even whether you have a criminal mind. Some people are born great; the rest just languish in mediocrity (and I'm not quoting Salieri here...).

Granted, there are many many musically gifted people out there who are mediocre musicians (assuming they became musicians) just because they couldn't be bothered to apply themselves, or have better things to do like designing a nuclear fusion reactor. But the bottom line is that all world class concert pianists past and present are musically and technically gifted. Whether the term 'genius' can be applied to them is of course a different matter.

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#1563849 - 11/25/10 06:53 AM Re: No You Can't [Re: RonaldSteinway]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1310
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
It's the "old" Nature vs Nurture" discussion.
Gladwell got some of his info from research by K Anders Ericsson titled: ‘The Role of Deliberate Practice in the Acquisition of Expert Performance’ Researchers studied 40 violinists at the Berlin Music Academy.
Read some more: http://www.geoffpetty.com/downloads/WORD/Ericsson.doc
or
From a paper written 1999: "Outstanding Performers: Created, Not Born?"
http://www.psychol.ucl.ac.uk/david.shanks/shanks_expertise.html

And yes, I adhere to the 10.000 hour idea.
_________________________
I never play anything the same way once.

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#1563862 - 11/25/10 08:01 AM Re: No You Can't [Re: bennevis]
motif Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 215
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Albert Einstein: Genius is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration.
I beg to differ.


of course you do, you are in group of lazy people. laugh

Originally Posted By: bennevis

Your IQ is genetically predetermined, as is almost everything else - whether you're extroverted, good at languages, good-natured or even whether you have a criminal mind.


wrong, there is no such thing as IQ, it is only human invention to compare incomparable. When you are born you are more or less Tabula Rasa with some genetic predisposition which can help but will not determine who you are. Rest is up to environment, parents, schooling, food you eat etc etc

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#1563883 - 11/25/10 08:49 AM Re: No You Can't [Re: RonaldSteinway]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5261
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Contrary to what some believe, we are not born with a blank slate.

... the moral mind if we can very slightly digress ...

The initial organization of the brain does not rely that much on experience... Nature provides a first draft, which experience then revises... 'Built-in' does not mean unmalleable; it means organized in advance of experience. Gary Marcus

for good measure ... http://www.human-nature.com/nibbs/02/pinker.html


_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1563927 - 11/25/10 10:25 AM Re: No You Can't [Re: RonaldSteinway]
jdhampton924 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 1006
Loc: Evansville, Indiana
Another idea to consider, is how much of music is like language? It is always amazing how that nworks, how as a child, we naturally pick up language, but then as we get older, it becomes difficult. There are still people who can speak multiple languages but never one as good as their first language. If music itself is language, would that explain child prodigies? Probably not, but the connection between language and music is an interesting one.

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#1563932 - 11/25/10 10:31 AM Re: No You Can't [Re: jdhampton924]
motif Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 215
Originally Posted By: jdhampton924
Another idea to consider, is how much of music is like language? It is always amazing how that nworks, how as a child, we naturally pick up language, but then as we get older, it becomes difficult. There are still people who can speak multiple languages but never one as good as their first language. If music itself is language, would that explain child prodigies? Probably not, but the connection between language and music is an interesting one.


I think you're right - music is a kinda language for sure.
I like what Picasso said about it:

Quote:
All children are artists. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up.


IMO that's the key to everything like getting PP for example or being creative.

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#1563955 - 11/25/10 11:12 AM Re: No You Can't [Re: RonaldSteinway]
Drunk3nFist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/08
Posts: 640
Loc: London
I reckon to become a 'genius' takes a successful combination of both skill and hard work. None alone can do it.
_________________________
Ravel - Une Barque Sur l'Ocean
Kapustin - Etude No. 7
Bach/Busoni - Chaconne

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#1563992 - 11/25/10 11:52 AM Re: No You Can't [Re: motif]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
Originally Posted By: motif
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Albert Einstein: Genius is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration.
I beg to differ.


of course you do, you are in group of lazy people. laugh

Originally Posted By: bennevis

Your IQ is genetically predetermined, as is almost everything else - whether you're extroverted, good at languages, good-natured or even whether you have a criminal mind.


wrong, there is no such thing as IQ, it is only human invention to compare incomparable. When you are born you are more or less Tabula Rasa with some genetic predisposition which can help but will not determine who you are. Rest is up to environment, parents, schooling, food you eat etc etc


A high IQ doesn't guarantee success in life but it sure helps (just as being rich doesn't guarantee happiness, but it sure helps....). Almost all of the most successful non-sportsmen, non-pop-singer, non-Hollywood celebrity-type people in the world, from Bill Gates to heads of states, have high IQs. IQ is still the best determinant of a person's intelligence. It exists. I've done several IQ tests in my time and the results are always consistent.

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#1563993 - 11/25/10 11:54 AM Re: No You Can't [Re: bennevis]
Rui725 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: motif
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Albert Einstein: Genius is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration.
I beg to differ.


of course you do, you are in group of lazy people. laugh

Originally Posted By: bennevis

Your IQ is genetically predetermined, as is almost everything else - whether you're extroverted, good at languages, good-natured or even whether you have a criminal mind.


wrong, there is no such thing as IQ, it is only human invention to compare incomparable. When you are born you are more or less Tabula Rasa with some genetic predisposition which can help but will not determine who you are. Rest is up to environment, parents, schooling, food you eat etc etc


A high IQ doesn't guarantee success in life but it sure helps (just as being rich doesn't guarantee happiness, but it sure helps....). Almost all of the most successful non-sportsmen, non-pop-singer, non-Hollywood celebrity-type people in the world, from Bill Gates to heads of states, have high IQs. IQ is still the best determinant of a person's intelligence. It exists. I've done several IQ tests in my time and the results are always consistent.


And I'm guessing the reason you state this is because you're 95% percentile or better?

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#1563997 - 11/25/10 12:08 PM Re: No You Can't [Re: Rui725]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
<blush> grin cry laugh

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#1564061 - 11/25/10 02:10 PM Re: No You Can't [Re: Rui725]
motif Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 215
Originally Posted By: Rui725
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: motif
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Albert Einstein: Genius is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration.
I beg to differ.


of course you do, you are in group of lazy people. laugh

Originally Posted By: bennevis

Your IQ is genetically predetermined, as is almost everything else - whether you're extroverted, good at languages, good-natured or even whether you have a criminal mind.


wrong, there is no such thing as IQ, it is only human invention to compare incomparable. When you are born you are more or less Tabula Rasa with some genetic predisposition which can help but will not determine who you are. Rest is up to environment, parents, schooling, food you eat etc etc


A high IQ doesn't guarantee success in life but it sure helps (just as being rich doesn't guarantee happiness, but it sure helps....). Almost all of the most successful non-sportsmen, non-pop-singer, non-Hollywood celebrity-type people in the world, from Bill Gates to heads of states, have high IQs. IQ is still the best determinant of a person's intelligence. It exists. I've done several IQ tests in my time and the results are always consistent.


And I'm guessing the reason you state this is because you're 95% percentile or better?


and you are like what, 10 years old or better?

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#1564248 - 11/25/10 09:14 PM Re: No You Can't [Re: motif]
Rui725 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
Originally Posted By: motif
Originally Posted By: Rui725
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: motif
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Albert Einstein: Genius is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration.
I beg to differ.


of course you do, you are in group of lazy people. laugh

Originally Posted By: bennevis

Your IQ is genetically predetermined, as is almost everything else - whether you're extroverted, good at languages, good-natured or even whether you have a criminal mind.


wrong, there is no such thing as IQ, it is only human invention to compare incomparable. When you are born you are more or less Tabula Rasa with some genetic predisposition which can help but will not determine who you are. Rest is up to environment, parents, schooling, food you eat etc etc


A high IQ doesn't guarantee success in life but it sure helps (just as being rich doesn't guarantee happiness, but it sure helps....). Almost all of the most successful non-sportsmen, non-pop-singer, non-Hollywood celebrity-type people in the world, from Bill Gates to heads of states, have high IQs. IQ is still the best determinant of a person's intelligence. It exists. I've done several IQ tests in my time and the results are always consistent.


And I'm guessing the reason you state this is because you're 95% percentile or better?


and you are like what, 10 years old or better?

<blush> grin cry laugh

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#1564355 - 11/26/10 02:50 AM Re: No You Can't [Re: bennevis]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7429
Originally Posted By: bennevis

A high IQ doesn't guarantee success in life but it sure helps


Considering how people typically react to high level intelligence in others, a high IQ is probably more of a general hindrance in life than a help. That is why organizations like Mensa exist.

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#1564372 - 11/26/10 03:42 AM Re: No You Can't [Re: wr]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3340
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: bennevis

A high IQ doesn't guarantee success in life but it sure helps


Considering how people typically react to high level intelligence in others, a high IQ is probably more of a general hindrance in life than a help. That is why organizations like Mensa exist.


I was accepted into Mensa and quickly walked right out again. There are more morons in there than anywhere else I've been. So many self-important stuffed-shirts patting themselves on the back. Waste of time in my opinion. The best thing I ever did was to start ignoring intelligence-measuring of people and just concentrate on the overall quality of my interactions with them.

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#1564376 - 11/26/10 03:55 AM Re: No You Can't [Re: ando]
motif Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 215
Originally Posted By: ando
The best thing I ever did was to start ignoring intelligence-measuring of people and just concentrate on the overall quality of my interactions with them.


bingo! was his name... thumb

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#1564392 - 11/26/10 05:01 AM Re: No You Can't [Re: ando]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7429
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: bennevis

A high IQ doesn't guarantee success in life but it sure helps


Considering how people typically react to high level intelligence in others, a high IQ is probably more of a general hindrance in life than a help. That is why organizations like Mensa exist.


I was accepted into Mensa and quickly walked right out again. There are more morons in there than anywhere else I've been. So many self-important stuffed-shirts patting themselves on the back. Waste of time in my opinion. The best thing I ever did was to start ignoring intelligence-measuring of people and just concentrate on the overall quality of my interactions with them.


Sounds like a smart move.

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#1564393 - 11/26/10 05:13 AM Re: No You Can't [Re: RonaldSteinway]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
Personally, I wouldn't join any club that would be willing to have me as a member (Mark Twain).

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#1564394 - 11/26/10 05:19 AM Re: No You Can't [Re: bennevis]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5261
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Personally, I wouldn't join any club that would be willing to have me as a member (Mark Twain).


I thought that was Groucho's line.
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1564395 - 11/26/10 05:19 AM Re: No You Can't [Re: bennevis]
Dara Online   blank
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 986
Loc: west coast island, canada
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Personally, I wouldn't join any club that would be willing to have me as a member (Mark Twain).


Did he really say/write that ?
That's funny !
I'll remember that line... in case needed sometime.

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#1564399 - 11/26/10 05:28 AM Re: No You Can't [Re: RonaldSteinway]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
I use that all the time when I'm asked/invited to join some group. Saves having to tell people I'm an anti-social grumpy old ****.......

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#1564405 - 11/26/10 05:52 AM Re: No You Can't [Re: RonaldSteinway]
V_Piano_Man Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/25/10
Posts: 28

Originally Posted By: bennevis
I use that all the time when I'm asked/invited to join some group. Saves having to tell people I'm an anti-social grumpy old ****.......


You pass the initiation Bennevis. You can join my anti social club.

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#1564407 - 11/26/10 05:58 AM Re: No You Can't [Re: V_Piano_Man]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
But you have to refuse me admission, otherwise I couldn't possibly join (as per my maxim)......

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#1564410 - 11/26/10 06:16 AM Re: No You Can't [Re: Dave Horne]
Nikolas Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 4995
Loc: Europe
Not sure who's line it was, but I get accepted to forums all the time. They probably don't know better! laugh haha!
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#1564597 - 11/26/10 02:10 PM Re: No You Can't [Re: RonaldSteinway]
TheHappyMoron Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/10
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
I'd say good singing is definitely down to talent. I can't sing to save my life.
_________________________
All theory, dear friend, is grey, but the golden tree of life springs ever green.

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#1564627 - 11/26/10 02:55 PM Re: No You Can't [Re: RonaldSteinway]
Bech Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/10
Posts: 844
Loc: Indiana
bennevis,

Believe it was Thomas Edison rather than Einstein who said that.

I agree with much of what you have to say but I'm not sure Edison had such a high I.Q.

He was very much "trial and error" rather than "strokes of genius."

This leads me to a saying I created:

"Persistence is a mighty thing."

Relative to your thinking I notice that a couple of pianists--Lisitsa and Lugansky--are avid chess players. I also have lots of respect for how many concert pianists can memorize a piece very quickly. Often many, many pieces and pretty much "note perfect." Amazing.

Famous pianist Arthur Rubenstein said you cannot develop talent. You must be born with it. He also said something like he did not have the technique of some pianists but can they make music?

I would say talent has much to do with "sensitivity." Some artists are more sensitive. They feel music more intensely and therefore can express it more expressively.

Then, perhaps, it's the combination of extra sensitivity plus hard-won technique that makes the great instrumentalist. Those who "make the instrument sing."

Sensitivity would be far more important than technique since many pieces do not require great technique but all require sensitivity as a prerequisite to excellent expression.

Could it be that the "mental problems" some great artists have experienced are due to their exceptional sensitivity?

I do get tired of reading comments all the time on YouTube about pianists being geniuses. They can't all be geniuses and not sure if any are. I think some composers more rightfully fit the genius category.

Bech


Edited by Bech (11/27/10 03:48 PM)
_________________________
Music. One of man's greatest inventions. And...for me, the piano expresses it best.

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#1565177 - 11/27/10 12:22 PM Re: No You Can't [Re: RonaldSteinway]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Good research out there showing that the people who do best in life across a range of criteria (from happy personal lives to financial security and so forth) are those with IQs slightly to somewhat above normal (that is 110 to 125 or 130). Once you get above 130 your chance of a happy 'successful' life diminishes. Statistically. Woe betide you if you're over 145. You'll be worse paid than your 115 IQ colleague/neighbour/old school friend, and probably have more highly fraught interpersonal issues.....

And I hereby assert that genius is only recognised when it is attached to a product.

Discuss.
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1565295 - 11/27/10 03:21 PM Re: No You Can't [Re: RonaldSteinway]
Dara Online   blank
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 986
Loc: west coast island, canada
Genius -
copy/paste
-------------
Origin - late Middle English : from Latin, ‘attendant spirit present from one's birth, innate ability or inclination,’ from the root of gignere ‘beget.’ The original sense [tutelary spirit attendant on a person] gave rise to a sense [a person's characteristic disposition] (late 16th cent.), which led to a sense [a person's natural ability,] and finally [exceptional natural ability] (mid 17th cent.).

-------------
Very interesting talk about this subject by Elizabeth Gilbert (the gal who wrote Eat, Pray, Love )
It's a bit lengthy (20 min.) but worthwhile if you have the time to listen.


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#1565544 - 11/28/10 12:12 AM Re: No You Can't [Re: Dara]
jdhampton924 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 1006
Loc: Evansville, Indiana
I really enjoyed her talk on genius and about coping with it. Very interesting ideas.

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#1565592 - 11/28/10 03:16 AM Re: No You Can't [Re: Elissa Milne]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
And I hereby assert that genius is only recognised when it is attached to a product.

Discuss.
Depends a little on how we define "attach", and very much on how we define "product". smile
_________________________
(I'm a piano teacher.)

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#1565598 - 11/28/10 03:42 AM Re: No You Can't [Re: Bech]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 773
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Bech
I would say talent has much to do with "sensitivity." Some artists are more sensitive. They feel music more intensely and therefore can express it more expressively.

Then, perhaps, it's the combination of extra sensitivity plus hard-won technique that makes the great instrumentalist. Those who "make the instrument sing."

Sensitivity would be far more important than technique since many pieces do not require great technique but all require sensitivity as a prerequisite to excellent expression.
That hits the nail on the head for me. Dave Horne, I loved your link - must break out my Pinker. This made me laugh - 'Take that, Howard Gardner!'

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