Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 4 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#1567580 - 12/01/10 02:07 AM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: Gary Allen]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
The retail model for piano sales, which seasoned pros like Steve Cohen defend as the only workable approach to marketing acoustic pianos, turns many people off these days.


Yeah, but this is not the piano's fault - but the industry's.

When done conscientiously, there's nothing better than a professional piano place giving honest advice to sincere buyers.

Part of this advice sometimes can be that a piano in not perhaps meant for absolutely everybody on planet earth - and certainly not at "all cost"

Unfortunately, much of the industry sees things differently.

Trying to push piano as a commercial, money-making type gadget - "main thing customer buys" - is exactly what got much of the industry in the trouble it is in today.

Otherwise everything else appears to be pretty well the same as before.....

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (12/01/10 02:12 AM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

Top
(ads 568) Hailun Pianos

 

#1567619 - 12/01/10 05:14 AM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: David Burton]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5131
Originally Posted By: David Burton


PS: DP's have an on/off switch. AP's can always be played.


Reliance on electricity can hardly rate as relevant these days. I well remember the time (as a keen photographer myself) when die-hard manual camera users (especially of Leica M, beloved of war photographers and Henri-Cartier Bresson of 'the decisive moment' fame) vowed never to use cameras that required batteries, because you can never rely on them. And subsequently ditto for auto-focus, ditto for digital (even more power-hungry than auto-focus, auto-everything). Now every photographer carries spare batteries, charger, memory cards, even solar charger....

Electricity is cheaper than tuners and technicians grin.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Top
#1567677 - 12/01/10 08:23 AM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: Gary Allen]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
In many aspects, it turns out to be basically a matter of taste and/or preference. One customer yesterday, an older lady in her late 70's I would guess, says she cannot understand why some people do not seem to be able to tell the difference between a digital and a piano. I can, she said. I can too, I said. Those that work on them certainly can. Just as pipe organ tuners can tell the difference between a digital or a pipe organ.

The very next client mentioned that she thought they all sounded the same and that it didn't matter what brand was played. The point is, hearing and discerning differences. Some people can, some people can't, some people don't care.

I have Bose speakers setting on my computer desk. I listened to the Avante Grand sound. To me, while it does sound pretty good, there is a difference in sound. Just as there is to me, a difference in the talked about EBVT III tuning in the technicians thread verses the ET tuning.

Some people can easily tell the differences, others can't but, does that mean they should only buy digital's or pianos? Does that mean, I'm right because I prefer pianos? It just means, some people have a preference to what THEY THINK is the same sound as a piano. So what.

The basic question is and was, "Will Acoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away?" God only knows that answer for sure. I honestly believe it will come down to partially anyway, whether or not manufacturer's prefer to build quality pianos or junk pianos. Problem pianos require a lot more service than better built pianos do. In that case, digital units may then, ultimately win. Ahhh but, will the piano fade away eventually? I still highly doubt it. Sales are down but so is manufacturing in mostly all major companies. The economy sucked and still sucks.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

Top
#1567705 - 12/01/10 09:05 AM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: Gary Allen]
SCCDoug Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 663
Loc: Canada
With digital technology there are a couple of competing forces at play. On one hand there has been the tremendous growth in the consumption of low-fidelity music through the use of MP3 players and downloaded music files. This is a trend that has been driven by consumers voting for cost over quality, and arguably started with the replacement of vinyl with CD’s in the 1980s. On the other hand, it is now possible to set yourself up with a reasonably high-quality sound system with either a decent turntable or SACD player for less than $10,000. For those who argue there is no way to reproduce the physical presence of a pipe organ, just listen to something like the Anthony Newman recording of “Music for Organ, Brass and Timpani’ through a high-end surround-sound system. The effect is breathtaking. Digital technology will inevitably continue to improve a rate much faster than that of acoustic technology.

In my opinion digital pianos are already making low-end acoustic uprights obsolete. I do not believe there is any long-term future for acoustic pianos competing in a mass-production market. Acoustics will be specialty items, usually grands, for discerning consumers for whom the inherent value of the instrument has more to do with their own requirements than with more practical considerations of value.


Edited by SCCDoug (12/01/10 09:06 AM)
_________________________
Doug

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Top
#1567709 - 12/01/10 09:16 AM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: SCCDoug]
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
I am inclined to agree with this analysis.
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


Top
#1567738 - 12/01/10 10:17 AM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: Norbert]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7193
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
The retail model for piano sales, which seasoned pros like Steve Cohen defend as the only workable approach to marketing acoustic pianos, turns many people off these days.


Yeah, but this is not the piano's fault - but the industry's.

When done conscientiously, there's nothing better than a professional piano place giving honest advice to sincere buyers.
Norbert


Norbert,

I don't disagree with you at all. I meant no slight to you, Steve, or any responsible piano retailer or sales pro. That's why I wrote in the same post that "It's too bad in a way because there are a lot of good piano sales pros who do listen and who do share good product knowledge with customers, but the arena in which piano selling is conducted simply turns many people off."

Personally, I have no fear of piano retailers (at this point), but how many people join this forum and offer up as a first post that they know little or nothing about pianos and feel at a disadvantage in selecting and buying one for their kids or even themselves? Pianos are slipping away from the public consciousness because they are all tucked away in specialty retail operations that get no foot traffic except for those who expressly have in mind to buy one, places that quite literally don't see the light of day because it's not good for the merchandise.

I don't want to harp on the pricing either, but it is a problem as well. I don't believe that most people will only buy the killer deal, but no one wants to be the rube who makes up for the killer deal that someone else got. The fear of the uninitiated to be exploited is real. People today don't want to hear about the need of the small retailer to obtain a higher margin because of his slow turn and high operating costs.

I'm not saying that the peculiarities of piano retail are as big a factor in declining sales as changing taste or the sour economy, but I honestly feel that it adds to the problem. I guess you're in a strip mall, so that's god. I've heard you serve excellent coffee and home-baked cookies. That's even better. smile I wouldn't doubt for a minute that your love of what you sell will complete the trifecta for those who venture into your shop. I wish you a great holiday selling season.





_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

Top
#1567841 - 12/01/10 12:47 PM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: Gary Allen]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3538
Probably they will overtake much of the acoustic market.

I have yet to see a speaker that can play back a piano convincingly.

Furthermore the digital piano sound is dead.

So as far as I am concerned, the DP might become a serious substitute when they can fix above issues.

However it's like MP3, it often sounds bad but almost everyone uses it. It seems most people don't hear the difference.
_________________________

Top
#1568124 - 12/01/10 06:21 PM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: pianoloverus]
Little_Blue_Engine Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 1233
Loc: Ohio, US
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think the fact that an acoustic piano can be played when the electricity fails is irrelevant unless one lives in a country like Iraq. In the U.S. I think the total time I've been without electricity during my entire life is about two days.
It may not be the biggest concern for most people, and I don't lose power often, but when the power does go out the first thing I do to entertain myself is sit my but down at the piano.
_________________________
I'll figure it out eventually.
Until then you may want to keep a safe distance.


Top
#1568128 - 12/01/10 06:32 PM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: wouter79]
bitWrangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1789
Loc: Central TX
Originally Posted By: wouter79
However it's like MP3, it often sounds bad but almost everyone uses it. It seems most people don't hear the difference.


MP3's caught on not because folks couldn't hear the difference, it's because the convenience factors outweighed any loss in fidelity (kinda like the same argument when cd's came out and audiophiles the world over screamed about how the format was sonically inferior to LP's, they missed the point entirely). Apparently it turns out that the enjoyment of music goes beyond reproductive fidelity for a large portion of the listening public. Who'da thunk it?

Top
#1568185 - 12/01/10 08:19 PM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: wouter79]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7193
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: wouter79

Furthermore the digital piano sound is dead.


laugh

Gosh! I guess that makes me a necrophiliac.


If the defining quality of acoustic pianos were lack of dependence on electricity, I think there would be occasional threads in this forum about battery-powered headlamps and kerosene lanterns.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

Top
#1568200 - 12/01/10 08:58 PM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: Little_Blue_Engine]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19351
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Little_Blue_Engine
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think the fact that an acoustic piano can be played when the electricity fails is irrelevant unless one lives in a country like Iraq. In the U.S. I think the total time I've been without electricity during my entire life is about two days.
It may not be the biggest concern for most people, and I don't lose power often, but when the power does go out the first thing I do to entertain myself is sit my but down at the piano.
How many times have you lost power and for how long?

I think saying this factor is not the biggest concern for most is a huge understatement. I'd love to see customers reactions to dealer's showroom signs saying "You can play our pianos in the dark!"

As(my former pupil)John McEnroe said "You cannot be serious!"

Top
#1568214 - 12/01/10 09:34 PM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: wouter79]
fingers Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 799
Loc: Westchester, NY
Originally Posted By: wouter79
However it's like MP3, it often sounds bad but almost everyone uses it. It seems most people don't hear the difference.


I think that most people can hear differences but place greater emphasis on ease of use, price, or it being the "new technology."
When the CD arrived on the scene, it was then touted as perfect sound forever. It was then, and still is now, far from perfect.

fingers
_________________________
Playing piano at age 2, it was thought that I was some sort of idiot-savant. As it turns out, I'm just an idiot.

Top
#1568226 - 12/01/10 10:05 PM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: Gary Allen]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
People today forget that an instrument like a piano went through different stages in its development.

First it was very special, reserved mostly for kings and Royalties.

Next, at the turn of the century, it became more "common" and widely spread as a tool of family and and neighborly entertainment.

This era was driven by both music making and social interaction between family members.

Then came the era of mass-producers making us believe that a piano should belong into each and every household on planet earth no matter who plays - what and why it is being played.

Or played at all....

With the quality of pianos taking a steep dive as well.

Perhaps the regression we are seeing today is not without merits.

After all, this is the time many pianos once again are getting "better" - not worse.

Owning and playing a fine instrument like a piano is certainly special - always *was*.

Perhaps the way it was meant to be from its very beginning.

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (12/01/10 10:09 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

Top
#1568236 - 12/01/10 10:21 PM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: Gary Allen]
sam235813 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 54
Loc: middle america
in terms of listening live or having something for the home, i think the differences are obvious and the audiences will decide what they're willing to live with. as someone who plays, i think pianos win hands down.

in terms of recording artists and recordings, how can you ever tell for sure what you're listening to? can't see why an avant grand (or "v" like digital keyboards) wouldn't be just as functional in that case. if digital keyboard action quality improves at the current rate, pianos will be in for tough slog. in the end, the application drives the choice of tool imo.

despite my love for pianos, i have no love for harpsichords. and if purists had their way, we might be still playing only those. the piano itself is a technological evolution and digital keyboards only continue that tradition. change is constant.
_________________________
1933 S&S A3

Top
#1568240 - 12/01/10 10:31 PM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: Gary Allen]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3867
The acoustic piano industry has shot itself in the foot.

Makers sending pianos to stores only 80% complete (still needing voicing, regulation, and 3 tunings to stabilize the strings)

Stores sending pianos to customers with no prep other than a tuning, and sometimes not even that.

Prevailing attitudes that if one buys an inexpensive piano, it's ok not to prep, because they don't play anyway.

Stores cutting back on service in misguided attempts to save costs, when gaining a reputation for excellent service would increase sales.

Stores and makers and teachers failing to mount a coordinated effort to promote the advantages of the acoustic piano over digital.

Distributors failing to place acoustic pianos in the stores where musicians shop (Best Buy, Sam Ash, Guitar Center)

Stores relying on newspaper advertising to get customers in the store when everyone gets their news from their smart phone.

In the 30 years I've been in this industry, I've never seen floor traffic in piano stores so slow. I almost never get interrupted by customers when doing floor tunings. There are no customers.

The acoustic industry is hunkering down, hoping to survive, when what they should be doing is mounting an offense to combat the digital revolution. Tout the acoustic advantages. Do digital trade in promotions. Find a way to upgrade all the digital owners to acoustics. Put acoustic pianos in stores where musicians go. Bring back the spinet, but have a tip forward action for easy service. Put an action in upright pianos that repeats like a grand. Build each and every piano as good as it can be. Nicely regulated and voiced. I have yet to see a digital needing voicing or regulating out of the box.

For gods sake do something, don't just lay down and take it.

The various associations comprised of piano techs, teachers, piano makers should start to form a plan of attack. A comprehensive, cohesive plan to promote the acoustic piano and upgrade digital owners to acoustics.



_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






Top
#1568274 - 12/01/10 11:20 PM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: Gary Allen]
Happy Birthday Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4415
Loc: San Jose, CA
Too true, Bob. Even DPs are hardly marketed. I would die of shock if I saw a TV ad for a piano.

However, back OT, one thing the piano has going for it that the typewriter lacked, is that almost every DP refers back to an acoustic instrument that has to still exist in order to be sampled. (Though it's true that some sounds are entirely manufactured and not sampled at all.)

And, an actual piano has by far the edge over any recording when it comes to bandwidth, including frequencies which are sensed but not actually audible.

But, I have both and AP and a DP and I love them both.
_________________________
Clef


Top
#1568289 - 12/01/10 11:51 PM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: Bob]
88Key_PianoPlayer Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 1906
Loc: El Cajon, CA
Originally Posted By: Bob
The acoustic piano industry has shot itself in the foot.

Makers sending pianos to stores only 80% complete (still needing voicing, regulation, and 3 tunings to stabilize the strings)

Stores sending pianos to customers with no prep other than a tuning, and sometimes not even that.

Prevailing attitudes that if one buys an inexpensive piano, it's ok not to prep, because they don't play anyway.

Stores cutting back on service in misguided attempts to save costs, when gaining a reputation for excellent service would increase sales.

Stores and makers and teachers failing to mount a coordinated effort to promote the advantages of the acoustic piano over digital.

Distributors failing to place acoustic pianos in the stores where musicians shop (Best Buy, Sam Ash, Guitar Center)

Stores relying on newspaper advertising to get customers in the store when everyone gets their news from their smart phone.

In the 30 years I've been in this industry, I've never seen floor traffic in piano stores so slow. I almost never get interrupted by customers when doing floor tunings. There are no customers.

The acoustic industry is hunkering down, hoping to survive, when what they should be doing is mounting an offense to combat the digital revolution. Tout the acoustic advantages. Do digital trade in promotions. Find a way to upgrade all the digital owners to acoustics. Put acoustic pianos in stores where musicians go. Bring back the spinet, but have a tip forward action for easy service. Put an action in upright pianos that repeats like a grand. Build each and every piano as good as it can be. Nicely regulated and voiced. I have yet to see a digital needing voicing or regulating out of the box.

For gods sake do something, don't just lay down and take it.

The various associations comprised of piano techs, teachers, piano makers should start to form a plan of attack. A comprehensive, cohesive plan to promote the acoustic piano and upgrade digital owners to acoustics.





I fully agree with this. For example, as for putting acoustic pianos in other music shops, I don't have to stretch my imagination too much (I don't think) to see Guitar Center dealing Baldwins, seeing as GC sells guitars made by Gibson, who now owns Baldwin.
_________________________
Associate Member - Piano Technicians Guild
1950 (#144211) Baldwin Hamilton
1956 (#167714) Baldwin Hamilton
You can right-click my avatar for an option to view a larger version.

Top
#1568296 - 12/01/10 11:59 PM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: SCCDoug]
Jonathan Baker Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/09/09
Posts: 343
Loc: New York City!
Originally Posted By: SCCDoug
For those who argue there is no way to reproduce the physical presence of a pipe organ, just listen to something like the Anthony Newman recording of “Music for Organ, Brass and Timpani’ through a high-end surround-sound system. The effect is breathtaking. Digital technology will inevitably continue to improve a rate much faster than that of acoustic technology.


Newman's recording is great fun. But having performed on the same organ ( St. Ignatius Loyola, here in NYC) I do not have the same sensation playing the recording as sitting at the console. And that is a relatively minor instrument with a much tamer sound compared to, say, the Wannamaker in Philadelphia, or any Cavaillé-Coll in France. Sit at the console, kick the Tutti, with all reeds, diapasons, and mixtures at full steam, and judge for yourself. Actually, in many churches, the organist has the worst seat in the house: organs are usually voiced for the nave where the instrument is to be heard by the public, and not for the organ loft where the instrument screams directly in your face, but that is another matter...

But back to the piano: plug-in keyboards are an on-going reality in the music world for economic reasons: most musicians do not have $70,000 to $200,000 for a great concert grand. So, as musicians have had to do for hundreds of years, we make do with what we have and can afford. But let's not confuse our ears with our wallets.

If I had never had access to a 9-foot Steinway or Bosendorfer, I might not feel the way I do. But my ears have been permanently corrupted by an excess of sumptuous sonority from those lovely Sirens, and my fingertips cannot coax out of any electronic keyboard, even remotely, comparably subtle and supple whisperings, much less the bronze grandeur.

I really do hope for quick and substantial progress by Casio, Yamaha, Roland, and all of Japan's other electro-gizzmo factories, because there are too many musicians with tons of talent but no trust funds to subsidize their studies, and they need access to the best instruments their limited funds can afford.
_________________________
Jonathan Baker
http://www.BakerPianoLessons.com/index.htm

Top
#1568309 - 12/02/10 12:25 AM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: Bob]
Jonathan Baker Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/09/09
Posts: 343
Loc: New York City!
Originally Posted By: Bob
In the 30 years I've been in this industry, I've never seen floor traffic in piano stores so slow. I almost never get interrupted by customers when doing floor tunings. There are no customers.


A very powerful post, overall.

In your sentence above, are you referring not only to inadequate service from distributors, but also the downturn in the world economy?

Here in NYC, ticket sales are way, way down at both opera houses (Metropolitan, and NYC Opera), as well as Carnegie Hall, Avery Fisher Hall, all other concert venues, and Broadway overall. The situation is getting dire, and across the country many orchestras and opera houses are now faced with extinction thanks the to sharp downturn in the economy.
_________________________
Jonathan Baker
http://www.BakerPianoLessons.com/index.htm

Top
#1568410 - 12/02/10 05:05 AM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: Jeff Clef]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
Too true, Bob. Even DPs are hardly marketed. I would die of shock if I saw a TV ad for a piano.



Back when I was a regular poster at the Keyboard Magazine forum, I asked many times, where are the ads for acoustic pianos? OK, I can understand not advertising on TV, but a magazine for keyboard players should get the occasional token ad.
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

Top
#1568423 - 12/02/10 05:34 AM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: Gary Allen]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5131
The majority of the arguments here have been along the lines of whether a DP can give the same satisfaction as an AP. In fact, for the many (? majority) who own a DP but not an AP, like myself, the issue is actually only what is the best DP to own that would satisfy my needs, because an AP is simply not possible due to the music/noise (delete as appropriate) it makes.

I don't think I'm alone in having learnt to play on an AP from a young age, when my parents' house was big enough and neighbours weren't a problem. Then university intervened, then work, and I moved away and got myself a modest accomodation where I still live, surrounded on all sides by neighbours in close proximity.

Obviously when I read of posters here talking about their 100x80x60 ft music rooms, it makes no sense to put a DP in there (I'd put in a Bosie Imperial, plus a Stuart & Sons grand so I could play K448 and Rachmaninov Suites with my pianist friend). Mansions that have halls like that still abound in large areas of the USA, but not in much of Europe, unless you're a multi-millionnaire. And as the planet becomes more crowded, more musicians (professional as well as amateur) will be living in properties that cannot accomodate a grand. And the key action of an upright is quite different from that of a grand, and to my ears, most uprights (and baby grands) have strident and unpleasant tone, especially in the bass once you start putting pressure on them. For them, as for me, a high-end DP with good tonal control at all dynamic levels and grand piano action is the best solution, and as DP continues to evolve and get ever closer to an acoustic concert grand, more and more pianists of all standards will gravitate towards one.

P.S. I can't believe I'm writing all this - my views would have been diametrically opposite just a few months ago, before I played on DPs for the first time, and eventually acquired one....
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Top
#1568518 - 12/02/10 10:24 AM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: Jeff Clef]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7193
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef

However, back OT, one thing the piano has going for it that the typewriter lacked, is that almost every DP refers back to an acoustic instrument that has to still exist in order to be sampled. (Though it's true that some sounds are entirely manufactured and not sampled at all.)


It's funny. The sampling vs. physical modeling debate can become as acrimonious as the crossfire between dp and ap camps. In the long run I don't see it as an issue personally. If there is substantial interest in both, a dp maker can include both options at the push of a button, or simply enhance one with the other as Roland has done in the V. If you want a typewriter parallel, just scan through the bank of fonts that your word processor permits you to access.

Originally Posted By: 88Key Piano Player
I don't have to stretch my imagination too much (I don't think) to see Guitar Center dealing Baldwins, seeing as GC sells guitars made by Gibson, who now owns Baldwin.


It's possible, but a lot of things would have to fall into place. There would need to be enough demand for pricing to firm up. One manufacturer and its distributor would have to violate the sacred principles of territoriality. The turn and the markup would have to justify the floor space taken up. I don't think Best Buy is doing all that with their investment in drum rooms and guitar rooms. Big box vendors analyze the productivity of their floor space on a regular basis. We'll have to see how it shakes down, but I think at this point it's more likely they'll scale back on their MI space than expand it to include acoustic pianos.

Originally Posted By: Jonathan Baker
But back to the piano: plug-in keyboards are an on-going reality in the music world for economic reasons: most musicians do not have $70,000 to $200,000 for a great concert grand. So, as musicians have had to do for hundreds of years, we make do with what we have and can afford. But let's not confuse our ears with our wallets.


For piano devotees, cost is probably the leading factor. For musicians (there is a difference), it's functionality and connectivity. As startling as it might seem to an acoustic piano devotee, there is music which is quite popular that sounds hollow and a bit silly on an acoustic. Many here would argue that such music is shallow, caters to low taste, and will not pass the test of time. However, musicians work in the real world whereas devotees can indulge their particular piano fetish.

Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
Back when I was a regular poster at the Keyboard Magazine forum, I asked many times, where are the ads for acoustic pianos? OK, I can understand not advertising on TV, but a magazine for keyboard players should get the occasional token ad.


In the US, the acoustic piano industry has cast its lot with NAMM. There is no independent association of acoustic piano dealers to monitor business practices, out the rogues and charlatans, and find a common marketing strategy. Recent NAMM shows tend to prove that this is not a good idea. (The foot traffic is very light in the acoustic piano area.)

Originally Posted By: sam285813
in the end, the application drives the choice of tool imo.


Wish I had written that. Very compact way of saying what ultimately is the only thing that matters.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

Top
#1568639 - 12/02/10 01:48 PM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: 88Key_PianoPlayer]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Originally Posted By: 88Key_PianoPlayer
Originally Posted By: Bob


Distributors failing to place acoustic pianos in the stores where musicians shop (Best Buy, Sam Ash, Guitar Center)

...... Put acoustic pianos in stores where musicians go.

For gods sake do something, don't just lay down and take it.



I fully agree with this. For example, as for putting acoustic pianos in other music shops, I don't have to stretch my imagination too much (I don't think) to see Guitar Center dealing Baldwins, seeing as GC sells guitars made by Gibson, who now owns Baldwin.


It's a great idea but unfortunately the type of people (and to me most of them don't fall into the category of "musician") that frequent GC/SA type MI stores are a totally different breed that would go to a store like "Keyboard Concepts", our local Yamaha/Bosendorfer dealer here in LA. First , they don't have the money to spend even on the least expensive Yamaha U-whatever upright much less a C2/3 entry level quality grand. Their "big purchase" would be spending 3K on the latest Yamaha Motif XF8. Second, their interests are more in synths/keyboards with the piano an afterthought--a totally different mentality than a "pianist". Them--"you mean this only does one sound " ?

To reverse that marketing concept--I remember a few years back when Keyboard Concepts experimented with having MI gear in their store. Dennis Haggerty, the owner, told me it was a nightmare. Between kids beating him up over $50 on a $1500 keyboard and the fact the "tattoo-orange hair-pierced nose-leather jacket-chain crowd" isn't conducive to someone coming in shopping for a C7, his "experiment" was short lived.

I agree, the Acoustic Piano dealers and their whole industry are feeling it, especially with the economy. I don't have an answer except that there will always be serious musicians--pros and hobbyists that can feel and hear the difference between a good quality Acoustic and a DP---granted, those people are a shrinking minority every 5-10 years now. Similar to the demand for live music played by real musicians. frown
_________________________
http://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP4, CP5 (home use) , RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers

Top
#1568644 - 12/02/10 01:51 PM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: Jonathan Baker]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3867
Originally Posted By: Jonathan Baker
Originally Posted By: Bob
In the 30 years I've been in this industry, I've never seen floor traffic in piano stores so slow. I almost never get interrupted by customers when doing floor tunings. There are no customers.


A very powerful post, overall.

In your sentence above, are you referring not only to inadequate service from distributors, but also the downturn in the world economy?



It's those two reasons, combined with changing customer habits regarding relaxation time (video games, sports, TV shows, etc) and the advancing quality and value of the digital piano. Each store and maker are different - it should be stated there are makers and stores who do a nice job on their products.

My thought is to put some acoustic pianos, tuned and prepped in the MI stores where musicians visit so they are exposed to them, and start touting the advantages of acoustic over digital. My fear is that the younger generation will be exposed to the digital piano, and buy one because that's what they know. The long term prospects (next decades) for the acoustic pianos and piano tuners is not good if current trends continue. The acoustic will be around, but at what numbers? (speaking USA only).
_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






Top
#1568662 - 12/02/10 02:12 PM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: Gary Allen]
Happy Birthday Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4415
Loc: San Jose, CA
Now that I think of it, Costco has caught hell for flooring APs. Some of it from me.

I suppose a music boutique mini-mall would flop in the present economy, but what a nice thought, in a way. Pianos in one store; luthiers in another; a really great music store in a neighbor location; across the way, an electronic music house; band instruments next door; space for lessons, practice rooms; performance space with a coffee house and bar; indie recording studio, Liberace museum (now that it's out on the street).

Someone could lose several shirts, or one shirt several times. Why, you could lose your shirt for each and every one of those stores.

The only store left open in the mall after two or three years, would be the pawn shop.


Edited by Jeff Clef (12/02/10 05:34 PM)
_________________________
Clef


Top
#1568675 - 12/02/10 02:30 PM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: turandot]
Jonathan Baker Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/09/09
Posts: 343
Loc: New York City!
Originally Posted By: turandot
[quote=Jeff Clef] For piano devotees, cost is probably the leading factor. For musicians (there is a difference), it's functionality and connectivity. As startling as it might seem to an acoustic piano devotee, there is music which is quite popular that sounds hollow and a bit silly on an acoustic. Many here would argue that such music is shallow, caters to low taste, and will not pass the test of time. However, musicians work in the real world whereas devotees can indulge their particular piano fetish.


You provide a dichotomy between pianists and musicians. That would come as mighty big news to Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, and Debussy, among others. They saw no division whatsoever.

I don't think that the music of, say, Art Tatum, demands the quality of a Steinway concert grand. A noisy, brassy, upright will do, and that is not to the discredit of Tatum, whose music delights me.

However, realizing the oh-so weighty musical substance of classical music does require much more than current plug-in keyboards can deliver, and "devotees [who] indulge their particular piano fetish" for coloristic nuances, fellows like Rachmaninoff, Rubinstein, and Horowitz, for instance, are regarded by most serious musicians as formidable musician-pianists working in the real world, not obscure introverts working on the fringe of musical oblivion. They demanded the highest sophistication from their instruments as intrinsic to the realization of musical content.

To put another spin on the matter, as Michaelangelo said of his art form: "Trifles make perfection, but perfection is no trifle."
_________________________
Jonathan Baker
http://www.BakerPianoLessons.com/index.htm

Top
#1568779 - 12/02/10 05:04 PM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: Dave Ferris]
jens4711 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/10
Posts: 86
Loc: Danmark
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris

It's a great idea but unfortunately the type of people (and to me most of them
don't fall into the category of "musician") that frequent GC/SA type MI stores
are a totally different breed that would go to a store like "Keyboard Concepts",
our local Yamaha/Bosendorfer dealer here in LA. First , they don't have the
money to spend even on the least expensive Yamaha U-whatever upright much less a
C2/3 entry level quality grand. Their "big purchase" would be spending 3K on the
latest Yamaha Motif XF8. Second, their interests are more in synths/keyboards
with the piano an afterthought--a totally different mentality than a "pianist".
Them--"you mean this only does one sound " ?


Whoa, this opens up a whole lot of interesting off-topic discussions..

Such as whether the production of "real" music really stopped around the 1940's.

Or whether "real" music benefits from the extra creative dimension(s) of sound/timbre design/synthesis and sound engineering…

Or whether the laws of classical music theory, are rules to be abided or just guidelines..

Top
#1568796 - 12/02/10 05:32 PM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: Jonathan Baker]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7193
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Jonathan Baker


You provide a dichotomy between pianists and musicians. That would come as mighty big news to Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, and Debussy, among others. They saw no division whatsoever.

I don't think that the music of, say, Art Tatum, demands the quality of a Steinway concert grand. A noisy, brassy, upright will do, and that is not to the discredit of Tatum, whose music delights me.



Jonathan,

What you think about the piano lit pecking order is your business. The professional money-making lives of the musicians you have mentioned have no direct bearing on the future of keyboard instruments and working keyboard instrumentalists. This is true for many different reasons.

In my posts on this thread, I have tried to reference the reality of the here and now and how that reality projects into the future. That doesn't mean I like the her and now. It doesn't mean that I don't. There is often a tendency to shape the future as one would like it to be because of the passion felt about something which might be lost therein. I don't want to go there. I think it's unrealistic and unproductive.

The distinction between piano devotees and a working musician who earns a living through performing music on keyboard instruments is clear enough. It is certainly possible that a working musician could also be a piano devotee. We all have our preferences and biases. But unless he is in rarefied air, he cannot imprint his devotion to a particular species of instrument on his working life.

I assume from your link that you are a piano teacher with a decided preference for acoustic instruments. It's also clear that you regard classical music as more serious (weighty) than other genres. Here is something I posted in this thread that may help you follow the distinction (not dichotomy) that I am drawing. If, as a teacher of piano, you feel this advice is not sensible and appropriate for your students contemplating a full-time performance career in the her and now and the future, please let this thread know about it.

"... if young people really want to become play-for-pay pianists these days -- even if they favor the classical repertoire and have a strong preference for acoustics --. they should become comfortable on a variety of digital keyboards including synthesizers and workstations. Regardless of what the instrument is, some players can extract more from it than others. Young players contemplating a keyboard career should learn to extract all that is musically available from each category and stay current with keyboard products as they evolve.

Short of those few elite pianists who are able to launch a concert career with a splash and sustain their popularity over a long career, precious few working pianists are able to call the shots on what they play and what they perform it on."
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

Top
#1568799 - 12/02/10 05:33 PM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: Gary Allen]
Happy Birthday Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4415
Loc: San Jose, CA
For a minute there, I thought I was the author of your quoted text, Jonathan. Yet somehow, I had piano amnesia... strangely so, because I'm all for music that's hollow and shallow.

Oh, wait--- no; it makes my ears tired. It is the main reason I avoid traveling by elevator.
_________________________
Clef


Top
#1568805 - 12/02/10 05:40 PM Re: Will Accoustic Piano Ultimately Go Away Like The Typewriter? [Re: pianoloverus]
Little_Blue_Engine Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 1233
Loc: Ohio, US
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Little_Blue_Engine
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think the fact that an acoustic piano can be played when the electricity fails is irrelevant unless one lives in a country like Iraq. In the U.S. I think the total time I've been without electricity during my entire life is about two days.
It may not be the biggest concern for most people, and I don't lose power often, but when the power does go out the first thing I do to entertain myself is sit my but down at the piano.
How many times have you lost power and for how long?

I think saying this factor is not the biggest concern for most is a huge understatement. I'd love to see customers reactions to dealer's showroom signs saying "You can play our pianos in the dark!"

As(my former pupil)John McEnroe said "You cannot be serious!"

I'd say we lose our power for more than a half hour 2 or 3 times per year. We seem to be right at the point where the dividing line between the houses that go dark and the ones that don't lies so our neighbors actually lose power more often. The longest I've ever been without power was about 7 hours a few years ago during the blackout, but family members of ours only a half hour drive away didn't get their power back until 2 days later. We have family that lost their power once for 8 days after a bad ice storm. I would never expect "you can play it in the dark" to be a sales strategy, but people who live in areas that do lose power often might take this into consideration when they're making their choice. Its something I would never have thought to consider before the experience of spending most of the day without power and being told it may be for a long time. I prefer an acoustic just because I like the overall experience of playing one compared to a digital, not having to plug it in is the icing on the cake.
_________________________
I'll figure it out eventually.
Until then you may want to keep a safe distance.


Top
Page 4 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >

Moderator:  Ken Knapp, Piano World, Rickster 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
ad (Casio)
Celviano by Casio Rebate
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
DH Baldwin - a few technical questions
by Jamie_from_Canada
19 minutes 7 seconds ago
I can only Trill well on good grand pianos....
by Paul678
Yesterday at 11:48 PM
Is Bondfix just as good as Hotstuff CA glue?
by Paul678
Yesterday at 10:42 PM
What's up with Paulello?
by jim ialeggio
Yesterday at 10:13 PM
Kawai RX-2 and RX-2 BLAK
by myip
Yesterday at 08:15 PM
Who's Online
55 registered (Abby Pianoman, Al LaPorte, BachMach2, 36251, 11 invisible), 981 Guests and 17 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76290 Members
42 Forums
157701 Topics
2316417 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission