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#1566381 - 11/29/10 01:30 PM Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video!
keyboardklutz Offline
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Here's what happens when the weight of the arm has to be supported by the fingers - some pretty major tensions in the arm! (look away ladies of a delicate disposition)
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#1566393 - 11/29/10 01:58 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Morodiene Offline
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Right, which is why one needs to be careful when using arm weight that they do not continue to press or use the weight after the key has been struck initially. smile
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#1566401 - 11/29/10 02:05 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Quite so! Release immédiatement!
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#1566473 - 11/29/10 04:56 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
????????

That certainly doesn't happen when I rest the weight of my arm on my fingers. The elbow is visibly fixed in position rather than adequately released and so is the wrist. It looks far more like pressing through a hand with an arm that has NOT adequately released its weight in the first place. If that's truly "supporting weight", why are you moving around and seizing up so much? That's supporting heavily sustained muscle pressure, not relaxed weight.

If desired to do, for some perverse reason, I could make a video of myself moving my fingers while making an effort to seize up my wrist in response to every action (a trap that all too many sadly fall into) and say "here's what happens when you try to move the keys with your fingers" However, it certainly wouldn't reveal anything terribly worthwhile.
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#1566484 - 11/29/10 05:08 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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First you get me banned for two weeks because I dared to find your physics laughable then, as soon as I'm back you want a debate! Sorry mate, you're being ignored - please go back to your own thread.
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http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1566489 - 11/29/10 05:14 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Gerard12 Offline
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Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 754
Loc: South Carolina
Posting that video on Youtube under the moniker of 'keyboard class' is pretty irresponsible.
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Piano performance and instruction (former college music professor).

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#1566492 - 11/29/10 05:19 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Any chance you'd enlighten me?
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#1566498 - 11/29/10 05:25 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4491
Loc: in the past
But all you're doing is tensing up. I don't understand why you would do that? You're not supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers because the weight is stuck in your forearm and not moving due to you seizing up.
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'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1566505 - 11/29/10 05:35 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Have you tried it yourself? I mean raising your arm from your finger tips and not taking the weight at the shoulder?
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#1566509 - 11/29/10 05:41 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
If you can do a press-up, it's hardly that big an ask is it?
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#1566514 - 11/29/10 05:47 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4491
Loc: in the past
Yes? I don't see what that does have to do with anything..
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'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1566518 - 11/29/10 05:51 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: Pogorelich.]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Yes? I don't see what that does have to do with anything..
I just find the arm a very heavy thing to lift up onto the fingers - the resultant stress in the muscles just corroborate that.
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#1566522 - 11/29/10 05:54 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4491
Loc: in the past
Why would you? The weight goes into the keys. It doesn't seize up and stay in your arm or fingers. I'm talking about when you actually play, not use a table..
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'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1566524 - 11/29/10 05:56 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Yes but the fingers still handle as much weight. The only difference is the damaging bump when the key beds.
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http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1566530 - 11/29/10 06:01 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4491
Loc: in the past
I don't understand why you would find it so difficult. It's simply the weight of the arm, and most times not even all of it, not ADDED weight from tensing/seizing up. That's how I've played and still play and haven't had any problems..


Edited by Pogorelich. (11/29/10 06:02 PM)
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'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1566533 - 11/29/10 06:04 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
The less weight from the arm (and it isn't a 'simple' weight it's quite a heavy one) the more weight supported at the shoulder. The video is not about what happens if you only hold up some of the weight.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1566534 - 11/29/10 06:09 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
It's not about what happens when you hold all of the weight on the hand either. It about what happens when you hold most of the weight back stiffly and then press stiffly.
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#1566535 - 11/29/10 06:10 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4491
Loc: in the past
Yeah, when you play a fortissimo in something like Brahms or Rachmaninoff, how would you go in about it? How could you not have supportive fingers? How would you produce the sound at all?
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1566539 - 11/29/10 06:15 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Of course you'd have supportive fingers and as Morodiene says 'do not continue to press or use the weight after the key has been struck initially.'
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1566552 - 11/29/10 06:34 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Basically what you are seeing are the flexors having to pull from their origin (the other side of the elbow (medial epicondyle) - so that stiffens), through the wrist (which has to stiffen other wise it gets pulled up by the flexors) through to each joint of the fingers (which are obviously tense as they support all the weight). Off to bed.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1566562 - 11/29/10 06:53 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
There's a simple way of avoiding all that. The upper arm releases enough for the elbow to be pulled backwards. The fingers exert enough of a forward pull upon the arm to cancel that. Hey presto- you have a totally free wrist and a forearm that is free enough to absorb the reaction forces. The wrist need not stiffen AT ALL if the elbow is being pulled lightly backwards by gravity, to counter it.
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#1566686 - 11/29/10 10:29 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
The position looks a bit awkward - maybe you are sitting too low? I am sure that my muscles don't do all that squirmy stuff when my fingers are supporting the weight of my forearm plus the pull of the upper arm backwards. I'm not sure that my muscles could do that!

If the finger has a lovely curve and is still it's amazing how much weight it can take. My cello teacher has an interesting excercise:

Let your arm hang by your side, your fingers will assume a natural curve.
Maintaining this curve, place a finger under one end of the piano bench,
straighten up a little and you will be able to lift the end of the bench with one finger acting as a hook.

Try again but this time lift the bench only using some kind of flexion of finger - and you can't do it!

I like to think of my hands as resilient, springy, curvy, athletic, and perfectly able to take the weight of arms at piano. After all there are lots of moments of rest:- after every staccato, every phrase end, big chords that you bounce off.
Just IMO, but that's the way I play.
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1566707 - 11/29/10 10:57 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2598
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
I just find the arm a very heavy thing to lift up onto the fingers -

Really? How about balancing the whole body on the fingers? smile
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"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

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#1566719 - 11/29/10 11:13 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
A man's arm weighs about ten pounds.
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#1566720 - 11/29/10 11:13 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6035
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
^ ^ ^
WIN.

EDIT: DANG IT DAVID. That meant to go to jazzyprof's vid. HAHA


Edited by Orange Soda King (11/29/10 11:14 PM)

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#1566770 - 11/30/10 12:38 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: Orange Soda King]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
^ ^ ^
WIN.

EDIT: DANG IT DAVID. That meant to go to jazzyprof's vid. HAHA
Heh. I'll take the WIN anyway. My post was, like, uber-worthy. smile
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#1566802 - 11/30/10 01:42 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Thanks Dave. If any of you have a 10 lb bag of potatoes go give it a lift. Maybe balance it on your arm or hand/fingers.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1566813 - 11/30/10 02:01 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: jazzyprof]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: jazzyprof
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
I just find the arm a very heavy thing to lift up onto the fingers -

Really? How about balancing the whole body on the fingers? smile
I knew an octogenarian who did pushups on his fingertips - as many as you'd like! I do this daily:
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1566860 - 11/30/10 04:20 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
well that explains your rippling muscles kbk laugh
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1566873 - 11/30/10 04:56 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Not the undulating tummy though!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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