Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) Yamaha CP4 Rebate
Yamaha CP4 Rebate
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
137 registered (Almaviva, accordeur, A Guy, A-Tom, 43 invisible), 1412 Guests and 17 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#1566381 - 11/29/10 01:30 PM Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video!
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Here's what happens when the weight of the arm has to be supported by the fingers - some pretty major tensions in the arm! (look away ladies of a delicate disposition)
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
Ad 800 (Pearl River)
Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#1566393 - 11/29/10 01:58 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12390
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Right, which is why one needs to be careful when using arm weight that they do not continue to press or use the weight after the key has been struck initially. smile
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher FT
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11


Top
#1566401 - 11/29/10 02:05 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Quite so! Release immédiatement!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1566473 - 11/29/10 04:56 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
????????

That certainly doesn't happen when I rest the weight of my arm on my fingers. The elbow is visibly fixed in position rather than adequately released and so is the wrist. It looks far more like pressing through a hand with an arm that has NOT adequately released its weight in the first place. If that's truly "supporting weight", why are you moving around and seizing up so much? That's supporting heavily sustained muscle pressure, not relaxed weight.

If desired to do, for some perverse reason, I could make a video of myself moving my fingers while making an effort to seize up my wrist in response to every action (a trap that all too many sadly fall into) and say "here's what happens when you try to move the keys with your fingers" However, it certainly wouldn't reveal anything terribly worthwhile.
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

Top
#1566484 - 11/29/10 05:08 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
First you get me banned for two weeks because I dared to find your physics laughable then, as soon as I'm back you want a debate! Sorry mate, you're being ignored - please go back to your own thread.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1566489 - 11/29/10 05:14 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Gerard12 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 776
Loc: South Carolina
Posting that video on Youtube under the moniker of 'keyboard class' is pretty irresponsible.
_________________________
Piano performance and instruction (former college music professor).

Top
#1566492 - 11/29/10 05:19 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Any chance you'd enlighten me?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1566498 - 11/29/10 05:25 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Pogorelich. Online   blank
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4565
Loc: not somewhere over the rainbow
But all you're doing is tensing up. I don't understand why you would do that? You're not supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers because the weight is stuck in your forearm and not moving due to you seizing up.
_________________________

"Doing things changes things. Not doing things leaves things exactly as they were."

Top
#1566505 - 11/29/10 05:35 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Have you tried it yourself? I mean raising your arm from your finger tips and not taking the weight at the shoulder?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1566509 - 11/29/10 05:41 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
If you can do a press-up, it's hardly that big an ask is it?
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

Top
#1566514 - 11/29/10 05:47 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Pogorelich. Online   blank
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4565
Loc: not somewhere over the rainbow
Yes? I don't see what that does have to do with anything..
_________________________

"Doing things changes things. Not doing things leaves things exactly as they were."

Top
#1566518 - 11/29/10 05:51 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: Pogorelich.]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Yes? I don't see what that does have to do with anything..
I just find the arm a very heavy thing to lift up onto the fingers - the resultant stress in the muscles just corroborate that.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1566522 - 11/29/10 05:54 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Pogorelich. Online   blank
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4565
Loc: not somewhere over the rainbow
Why would you? The weight goes into the keys. It doesn't seize up and stay in your arm or fingers. I'm talking about when you actually play, not use a table..
_________________________

"Doing things changes things. Not doing things leaves things exactly as they were."

Top
#1566524 - 11/29/10 05:56 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Yes but the fingers still handle as much weight. The only difference is the damaging bump when the key beds.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1566530 - 11/29/10 06:01 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Pogorelich. Online   blank
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4565
Loc: not somewhere over the rainbow
I don't understand why you would find it so difficult. It's simply the weight of the arm, and most times not even all of it, not ADDED weight from tensing/seizing up. That's how I've played and still play and haven't had any problems..


Edited by Pogorelich. (11/29/10 06:02 PM)
_________________________

"Doing things changes things. Not doing things leaves things exactly as they were."

Top
#1566533 - 11/29/10 06:04 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
The less weight from the arm (and it isn't a 'simple' weight it's quite a heavy one) the more weight supported at the shoulder. The video is not about what happens if you only hold up some of the weight.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1566534 - 11/29/10 06:09 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
It's not about what happens when you hold all of the weight on the hand either. It about what happens when you hold most of the weight back stiffly and then press stiffly.
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

Top
#1566535 - 11/29/10 06:10 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Pogorelich. Online   blank
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4565
Loc: not somewhere over the rainbow
Yeah, when you play a fortissimo in something like Brahms or Rachmaninoff, how would you go in about it? How could you not have supportive fingers? How would you produce the sound at all?
_________________________

"Doing things changes things. Not doing things leaves things exactly as they were."

Top
#1566539 - 11/29/10 06:15 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Of course you'd have supportive fingers and as Morodiene says 'do not continue to press or use the weight after the key has been struck initially.'
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1566552 - 11/29/10 06:34 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Basically what you are seeing are the flexors having to pull from their origin (the other side of the elbow (medial epicondyle) - so that stiffens), through the wrist (which has to stiffen other wise it gets pulled up by the flexors) through to each joint of the fingers (which are obviously tense as they support all the weight). Off to bed.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1566562 - 11/29/10 06:53 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
There's a simple way of avoiding all that. The upper arm releases enough for the elbow to be pulled backwards. The fingers exert enough of a forward pull upon the arm to cancel that. Hey presto- you have a totally free wrist and a forearm that is free enough to absorb the reaction forces. The wrist need not stiffen AT ALL if the elbow is being pulled lightly backwards by gravity, to counter it.
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

Top
#1566686 - 11/29/10 10:29 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
The position looks a bit awkward - maybe you are sitting too low? I am sure that my muscles don't do all that squirmy stuff when my fingers are supporting the weight of my forearm plus the pull of the upper arm backwards. I'm not sure that my muscles could do that!

If the finger has a lovely curve and is still it's amazing how much weight it can take. My cello teacher has an interesting excercise:

Let your arm hang by your side, your fingers will assume a natural curve.
Maintaining this curve, place a finger under one end of the piano bench,
straighten up a little and you will be able to lift the end of the bench with one finger acting as a hook.

Try again but this time lift the bench only using some kind of flexion of finger - and you can't do it!

I like to think of my hands as resilient, springy, curvy, athletic, and perfectly able to take the weight of arms at piano. After all there are lots of moments of rest:- after every staccato, every phrase end, big chords that you bounce off.
Just IMO, but that's the way I play.
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

Top
#1566707 - 11/29/10 10:57 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2674
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
I just find the arm a very heavy thing to lift up onto the fingers -

Really? How about balancing the whole body on the fingers? smile
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

Top
#1566719 - 11/29/10 11:13 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
A man's arm weighs about ten pounds.
_________________________
(I'm a piano teacher.)

Top
#1566720 - 11/29/10 11:13 PM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6125
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
^ ^ ^
WIN.

EDIT: DANG IT DAVID. That meant to go to jazzyprof's vid. HAHA


Edited by Orange Soda King (11/29/10 11:14 PM)

Top
#1566770 - 11/30/10 12:38 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: Orange Soda King]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
^ ^ ^
WIN.

EDIT: DANG IT DAVID. That meant to go to jazzyprof's vid. HAHA
Heh. I'll take the WIN anyway. My post was, like, uber-worthy. smile
_________________________
(I'm a piano teacher.)

Top
#1566802 - 11/30/10 01:42 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Thanks Dave. If any of you have a 10 lb bag of potatoes go give it a lift. Maybe balance it on your arm or hand/fingers.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1566813 - 11/30/10 02:01 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: jazzyprof]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: jazzyprof
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
I just find the arm a very heavy thing to lift up onto the fingers -

Really? How about balancing the whole body on the fingers? smile
I knew an octogenarian who did pushups on his fingertips - as many as you'd like! I do this daily:
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1566860 - 11/30/10 04:20 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
well that explains your rippling muscles kbk laugh
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

Top
#1566873 - 11/30/10 04:56 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Not the undulating tummy though!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
The February 2015 Issue of our Free Piano News Newsletter is out now! FREE Piano Newsletter
--------------------
The best thing I've learned on Piano World....
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
(ad) Jazz Piano Online
Jazz Piano Online Lessons
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
What does River Phoenix play for his audition in ++
by riley80
03/01/15 07:50 PM
Chickering Quarter Grand
by Randy R. Johnson
03/01/15 06:16 PM
Why not a worm drive to tension strings?
by Beemer
03/01/15 05:48 PM
Chopin, Rondo's
by dolce sfogato
03/01/15 05:31 PM
PianoDisc ProRecord
by Mompou's Cat
03/01/15 05:14 PM
Forum Stats
78,358 Registered Members
43 Forums
161,974 Topics
2,378,506 Posts

Most users ever online: 15,252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2015 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission