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#1566877 - 11/30/10 05:02 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Your tummy kbk??

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Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
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#1566880 - 11/30/10 05:07 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Its all the organic chocolate - I tried fruit instead but carrying it all home everyday was a nightmare!
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#1566881 - 11/30/10 05:10 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Canonie Offline
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Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
OMG!! There is organic chocolate in my mouth Right Now!! What a cooincidence. (Green and Blacks organic chocolate (blue packet) Mmmmmmmmmm.

Just finished rest of packet laugh
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1566884 - 11/30/10 05:21 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6988
Loc: So. California
Now why would it be 10lb of dead weight? It's hinged to the shoulder, kbk. As your other earlier illustration shows, you are just fighting the force that keeps it from falling down straight.

I'm able to support some weight on the fingers without locking the wrists (no rippling muscles for me either smile ). And I can feel the that the resistance is coming from my intrinsic hand muscles which are plenty strong now.

Obviously the shoulder has to carry some of the other weight so it's in neither extreme of all fingers or all shoulders for me. The elbow can firm up too. I don't find this particularly tiring but I just feel my fingers are a tad more active than just a passive drop.

I don't always play like this for everything but it appears to work for me for doing something fast.

From what I feel, I think I still start of a phrase with an arm drop and then I let the fingers pull a bit or add wrist rotation. My teacher and I worked on this and there was some tension until I moved closer to the keyboard. You mentioned that and of course that automatically drops the weight since the arm is already down. And there's less pull backwards on the fingers.
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#1566903 - 11/30/10 06:26 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: Canonie]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Canonie
OMG!! There is organic chocolate in my mouth Right Now!! What a cooincidence. (Green and Blacks organic chocolate (blue packet) Mmmmmmmmmm.

Just finished rest of packet laugh
Why! That cannot be! I've just now taken a piece of my Green and Blacks organic (blue packet) to have with my coffee!
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
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#1566909 - 11/30/10 06:33 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Jazzwee, you're very much on to the right track. As an illustration total weight on the fingers vs total weight hanging from the shoulders is a good place to start a discussion from. Notice though, which will involve less tension hanging or supporting? I've published a paper on how the shoulders hang down the back (of the spine) and how the torso 'hangs' off the femurs (just going to the printers) - I'll PM them to you. Hanging seems to be what nature intended.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee
My teacher and I worked on this and there was some tension until I moved closer to the keyboard. You mentioned that and of course that automatically drops the weight since the arm is already down. And there's less pull backwards on the fingers.
Good point.


Edited by keyboardklutz (11/30/10 06:46 AM)
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#1566920 - 11/30/10 06:51 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Canonie
OMG!! There is organic chocolate in my mouth Right Now!! What a cooincidence. (Green and Blacks organic chocolate (blue packet) Mmmmmmmmmm.

Just finished rest of packet laugh
Why! That cannot be! I've just now taken a piece of my Green and Blacks organic (blue packet) to have with my coffee!

On the other side of the world. I didn't even know you had it over there! This is too strange kbk. At least you're drinking coffee (I'm having tea).

Right, back to arm weight. I have enjoyed thinking about these things over the past week. I definitely (for better or worse) support arm weight with my fingers, i.e. I don't hold the weight up using elbow flexors, except after any note or chord where I float or rebound upwards (e.g. at the end of phrases).
Thought I should contribute something on topic again wink
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1566922 - 11/30/10 07:05 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: Canonie]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Canonie
Right, back to arm weight. I have enjoyed thinking about these things over the past week. I definitely (for better or worse) support arm weight with my fingers, i.e. I don't hold the weight up using elbow flexors, except after any note or chord where I float or rebound upwards (e.g. at the end of phrases).
Thought I should contribute something on topic again wink
Actually I've given up coffee - it was the first one in over a week. I drink a lot of green tea (organic of course). Cello is fascinating for me. I had one of the world's top oboists as a teacher. She insisted on resting the weight of the left arm on the instrument. It took me years to get the hang of it but it really works! She was a student of Janet Craxton whose dad, significantly, was a big friend and exponent of Matthay (Harold Craxton). My teacher says there was no connection though I wonder. I took the technique over to the guitar - really makes a difference to apply the weight into the instrument! It also applies to vibrato on the violin - you play with the weight that only just keeps the string down. You want my articles?
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#1566934 - 11/30/10 07:49 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6035
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
I can do this, does this count for something?


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#1566937 - 11/30/10 07:52 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
'Fraid not, I'd see someone about that nose though.
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#1566938 - 11/30/10 07:56 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Notice though, which will involve less tension hanging or supporting? I've published a paper on how the shoulders hang down the back (of the spine) and how the torso 'hangs' off the femurs (just going to the printers) - I'll PM them to you. Hanging seems to be what nature intended.


When relaxed downward, hanging sounds fine. The joints CAN relax so they "hang". Do you still refer to them as "hanging" when you hold your arms horizontally out in front of you, with every joint unsupported by anything but muscular activity? I can't see how "hanging" can even come into it, unless the shoulder and elbow etc. are able to release some of the activity by which they support the arm's weight. The only way to do that is for the finger to support it (or to collapse everything down by your side). Anything without finger support requires large internal forces- that seem to contradict the entire nature of "hanging".

When playing the piano, we can only get the benefits of the "hanging" approach if the joints are able to relax in the same way. When unsupported by the fingers, they simply are not. It becomes like the scenario of holding the arm out.

Thanks for suggesting that. It gives me a good idea for a rather practical exercise that would help to distinguish between the truest hanging state and the lowest possible effort self-supporting state of holding your arms out with the lowest possible effort. Neither state is possible for actual playing. The "feel" of playing the piano then lies somewhere in the middle. No support at the finger means no hanging but instead an arm that is full of ongoing muscular activity. But no internal efforts at all and you fall off.
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#1566939 - 11/30/10 07:59 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Still on ignore list yawn Why do I have the feeling my life is flashing before me? (rhetorical)
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1566943 - 11/30/10 08:06 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Also, I think this sheds a lot of light kbk's idea of keeping the upper arm vertical. Seeing as it cannot "hang" when out forwards (due to gravity trying to bring it back to equilibrium) the internal forces would be highly tiring without decent finger support. Sitting closer to the piano would leave the elbow closer to equilibrium with a lower effort. The closer it is to vertical, the less effort to keep it in position. Personally, I'd be far more interested in gaining some much needed support though, rather than trying to take the workload of the elbow with a vertical upper arm.
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#1566952 - 11/30/10 08:16 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Listen, I'll say it again - You can't get someone banned and expect them to entertain any of your ideas. I've stayed out of your thread(s) - you're no gentleman that's for sure!
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1566956 - 11/30/10 08:20 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Strictly speaking, I believe that's a "personal attack" but I'll let that one go and hope for your sake that the moderators don't spot it. I'm not interested in getting into personal battles, but there are a lot of interesting issues here that are raised by what you have said. You're welcome to contribute to my thread, as far I'm concerned.
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http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

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#1566958 - 11/30/10 08:20 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Go on....have the last word.
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1566962 - 11/30/10 08:29 AM Re: Supporting the weight of the arm on the fingers - a video! [Re: keyboardklutz]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
*sigh*

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