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Jazzwee has asked me a question but I don't much want to type for one:

The problem is the intrinsics (interosseous and lumbricals) are small muscles. They're worth isolating if for no other reason than to know where they are. There are debates about what use strengthening them achieves though. Playing trumpet is a good example - some trumpeters push the valves down only with the proximal joint (one by the knuckle). They say it's the fastest because it's the smallest - Arnold Schultz agreed. I went through a period a few years ago of trying to isolate and play only with them. This is not too clear but there's not much flexor use here. The fingers often stick up (extensors):

I played the GM P&F from WTC BkII in the same way. The prelude with the top two joints not even touching the keys!

I abandoned that when I realized that the most sensitive part of the body is the finger pad. I think Schultz went wrong when he ignored this instead going for the small-muscle-must-be-the-most-sensitive route. What I do know of the intrinsics is they have a very complicated role in flexion of the fingers. That is really complicated even before you add any force acting against that motion (a key for instance). Add to that the fact that the extensors contract (the opposing contractions people warn you about) at the same time as the flexors to 'smooth' the movement, and you've got real complications.

We've evolved our strong grip by placing the 'gripping' muscle in the forearm. When a newborne grabs your little finger, that's them. No one, well, perhaps one person, really thinks they know the role of the muscles of the upper limb with confidence - maybe it's what feels right? And what feels right to me is minimum effort and the sensitivity. I now play that Etude with the same arm weight for the tune but really sensitive pads for the 'rippling' - the movement is initiated by the nail joints - the 'scratch' - the initiating seems to become more skilled the more you can release/relax that joint. I find it the most sensitive playing and I'm sure it's what Chopin used, though most pianists don't bend in the tip as they play, instead keeping the finger shape and bending from the knuckle. It's the difference between stroking a pet or poking a pet à la Dog Whisperer.

By all means develop your intrinsics but be aware whether or not that is what you are doing. It doesn't sound like you are to me. As for weight the rule is really the faster you play the more the arm must hang from the shoulder (be self supported). Chopin would say it has to 'glide' up the keyboard.
Phew. Does that help any?

Pseudoscientists please keep out!

That's all well and good. But now try playing that etude at tempo. What motions allow you to play that etude at the intended tempo?

The same. The key is arms for tune and fingertips for 'ripple'. The Rhodes is sweet isn't it?

Can you be more consistent with hanging and self-support? Hanging from a single point is NOT a self supported mechanism. A structure that is supported at one point only does not "hang"- unless it collapses freely under gravity. An arm at a keyboard does no such thing. It requires large internal support forces to stabilise the unstable centre of gravity- IF it is only supported at the shoulder, as you claim it should be. We see evidence of this higher-effort internal support in the rather stiff elbow you employ within your supposed illustration of supporting armweight and within this etude.

Conversely a chain of free joints that is supported at two ends DOES have the ability to "hang" without any additional internal forces within the joints. If you're talking about "hanging"- how can you refer to a self-supporting mechanism? The two are polar opposites. The arm hangs when the finger is a point of stability.

PS. Any future implications that I am a pseudo-scientist and I WILL report you for more personal attacks.

Just let me know if there are any 'personal attacks' folks.

"We've evolved our strong grip by placing the 'gripping' muscle in the forearm."

Also, I'm confident that this is quite factually inaccurate. A weight lifter uses the strongest muscles at the knuckle above all. The next two joints are to add a little extra stability, not to support collossal loads. Would you lift a dumbell with only the the last two segment of your finger- or would you grip around it from the centre of your palm? I'd be most interested to hear how either a weightlifter or baby supposedly grips without the strong lumbricals and interosseus muscles and which tendons supposedly bear the load...

No sign whatsoever on here of a suggestion that the strongest gripping action comes from the tendons.

http://home.comcast.net/~wnor/lesson5mus&tendonsofhand.htm

Do babies only grip with the last two joints of their fingers, or do they grip from the palm like any sensible person would? I find your under-researched and factually inaccurate claims outright irresponsible. While at least some level of action via the tendons is required in any playing mechanism, claiming that they are responsible for strong grip (and portraying the strong healthy action of the powerful lumbricals as if weak and irrelevant) is an erroneous and potentially very harmful thing to be portray to anybody. Tedonitis can be specifically caused by excessive focus on these weaker joints. You really should not be trying to give advice on these things without properly researching it first.

kbk, how do I know that the muscles used are the intrinstics? Because the muscle has already developed (past tense). A common test in Orthopedics is a bilateral comparison.

My RH has more muscle development underneath the knuckles then the LH. Obviously this must have happened because of what I was doing so I've now continued with similar exercises with the LH. The result has been more power and control on the LH too. I cannot see the muscle development but I can feel it.

Now how do I know I'm not overusing the tendons? I'm ashamed to admit this but it's because I already got tendonitis a few years back and already got a trigger finger, with consequent surgery. So I've learned to be careful about particular movements (overusing the finger tips).

I think unfortunately that this is a fine line. The type of exercise my teacher has given me can be played incorrectly too and cause a finger sprain. It appears to develop the intrinsics well but requires wrist rotation or I end up with hand twisting.

There has been long discussion about playing with flatter fingers and the force coming from the knuckle (some of it you disagreed with yourself at some point). So you agree that this "scratching" does emanate from the knuckle?

The question often is how much force is required for the finger for fast work. It's obviously variable depending on how much the arm is self-supported. Is this scratching an extremely light action? It seems like a much different description than pulling which is the same motion but maybe a different degree?

BTW - people may wonder why someone like me who does not play Chopin Etudes or anything like that would be posting or asking a question about this topic.

But I consider myself an experiment. I'm an extremely late starter at the piano (late 40's) and yet I appear to have developed my technique (6 years of playing only) at a faster rate. Every few months I'm still achieving some new jump in technique and I'm constantly seeking a next step.

Most longer term pianists started out as a child and often we have no description of what happened in their technique development. I have a feeling that children's intrinsics develop too but it happens from so early on that no one notices.

My teacher keeps telling me (he's a world class Jazz pianist BTW), that my hands need to be stronger. So I work on it, but honestly, hearing this early on, I didn't know what that meant.

I'm sure I'm not the only one confused by all the terminology. How can one say, "relaxation", "no tension", yet in the same breath tell me that my hand needs to be stronger?

All I can say is that my tone, speed, and finger legato have all improved dramatically lately. So something is happening that I wish I can explain. I don't think my teacher is explaining it either. All I know is that I keep practicing these difficult exercises and the only change he had me do recently was play closer to the keyboard so I'm not lifting my arm.

'relaxation' and 'no tension' are only what you do after using your developed strength. They're in no way incompatible. I still am not sure you are working your intrinsics - it needs a very specialized exercise indeed. Can you be specific?

With trigger finger and tendonitis on the horizon I'd be very careful what you do. The blood supply to ligaments and tendons is very poor - you can times the amount of time they need to repair by 10 compared to muscle!

Fast work and force are mutually exclusive. The faster you play the quieter you have to get - real fast playing just doesn't have time to get to the keybed.

Pulling and scratching, as caressing and stroking, are all the same coordination. You can be pulling the key toward you and see no finger movement at all - it's one of the invisible elements of technique. I call that gripping - again the same thing.

Scratching doesn't come from the knuckle - it comes from the finger pad, sometimes the tip - it curls in even though most times invisibly.

To be honest in your condition you should be playing more like Bill Evans not Chick Corea.

Specialised??? Have you never held onto something and then picked it up? These muscles are involved in the MOST STANDARD actions of all. They are the strongest part of a hand's function and the most widely used part of a hand's function. It's only arriving at a piano that people sometimes throw these out for some reason and instead put all of the workload on weaker actions.

kbk, I was told it was derived from a "Rachmaninoff Exercise" but I don't know of any actual reference to this exercise on the net. The exercise was supposedly modified for jazz use.

It's basically playing a large chord in each hand playing two fingers at a time 1-3, 2-4, 3-5. The stretch on the outer fingers is huge (5ths and tritones). It's actually a finger legato exercise with stretch. It's incredibly difficult to play it legato especially with the mix of black and white keys. It's played in 12 keys with two hands with rocking between finger pairs.

The strain when doing the rocking back and forth is tremenduous, but I've learned to lessen the effort with wrist rotation. I've practiced it with a pulling action too (from the knuckles to see if that makes any difference). Not sure what to report on that one yet. There's very little relief from the strain here because of the stretch.

In case you didn't catch my edit - To be honest in your condition you should be playing more like Bill Evans not Chick Corea. Though I know that's not what you want.

I'd be interested in seeing the sheet or a sheet for these exercises - I may find you a better way to do them (you'll still build your strength).

LOL - of course I cannot hope to play in Chick Corea's style. I haven't found too many that can. So the default is the Bill Evans way.

But he stoops! So his posture may not be the best example. LOL.

I'll let you know if I find the sheet music for this. I haven't seen it in awhile.

Sounds like one of the Dohnanyi exercises. If anyone's interested, I'll try to look it up later.

It's alright. You don't have to stoop! But I would advise turning your amp up. Play quietly, carry a big stick!

FYI - found it. It's Dohnanyi #31, and I'm aware of a similar exercise that takes you through other chords as well.

Got it.

kbk, yes the Dohnanyi #31 is similar although the interval for the 1-3 is only a 3rd. Also it is played in contrary motion. In this modified exercise the intervals for LH/RH are not exactly the same because the RH follows a Lydian Mode -- hence the name Lydian exercise.

But that of course is not relevant here other than for the musicality aspect.

So what do you suggest here?

I think the intervals are relevant. Dim 7ths make for good exercises because they are all m3rds. It can get damaging if you increase the intervals. What are they?